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HerNameIsBuffy

Jinger 52: She and Her Narcissistic, Lazy Husband Are Riding on Coattails

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Bobology
59 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

No one can do anything they want.  I grew up with a fair amount of privilege but I was never going to be a professional basketball player or ballerina because my talents lie elsewhere.

The kid who struggles with math to a serious degree is going to have a hell of a time in most STEM careers, but could excel brilliantly in other areas.

Kids should be encouraged to find their personal gifts and aptitudes and find their own unique path.  The whole you can be or do anything is just a cliché and so obviously incorrect as to be pointless.  

What everyone can do is find a way to contribute to the world with their talents and strengths and make a life for themselves and a better place for others.  That's what should be encouraged.

So true

I should wait a few pages later to quote this, but by then I'll lose it.


 

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ItsAllOver

I've been reading along with this discussion, and I feel hesitant to contribute in case somehow someone I know IRL happens to read this and recognizes me and I have to flee the interwebs, but...

I've come to realize lately just how much your background matters in where you end up in life. I was definitely raised to believe I was going to college, no question at all. Neither of my parents had completed a university-level degree, but it was a given that I would. My family kind of rides the line between working class and middle class, and many of my cousins either didn't finish high school or needed extra time to graduate. A college education is not a thing they would even consider. I did well in high-school and even better in college, and then... that was sort of it. I ended up in the same low-level jobs as if I had never bothered. I struggled working for several years, then decided to go to grad school. I would do better this time, fix my "mistakes" from my undergrad, and come out the other side prepared for a career in my chosen field. Well, I got the degree, can't find employment in my field, and my job options are low-wage office work.

I've come home to the same place that doesn't offer a lot of options because I don't have any support anywhere else, and I'm around the same people that don't understand why I didn't just do a short trade school to be a dental hygienist or a CNA and have a responsible adult life. My mother constantly sends me job postings for things like "bank teller" and "receptionist" because neither of us knows the names of or places to find "good jobs" (and we have different ideas of what a "good" job is). I know many of my classmates from undergrad and grad went on to have careers that actually paid the bills, even with vague degrees and subpar grades, and I don't know why I can't find that too, except that I have no connections to people that can get my jobs like that. When people in my social circle try to help me, they recommend more of the same low-wage jobs because that's all they know too.

So basically, my life choices are as limited as they always were, but now I know enough about a world where people who have professional, fulfilling jobs live and do more than scrape by that I'm angry, and I don't think I should have to make $12.00 an hour. I have few people to discuss academic subjects with because no else is interested, and I have to be careful not to be "too smart" around my family. The attitude of everyone around me is that a responsible person will work two or three jobs to make ends meet, everyone hates their job--that's just how it is, or they simply don't mind performing the same rote actions over and over again. I always want to ask, "Why do you just accept that? Why is that considered okay?" I've educated myself out of being content with the sort of my job I'm going to have, and it probably would have been better if I'd just done a trade school and never had to know what I was going to miss. Trying to navigate higher education when no one who has been there before can help you or making career connections that are outside of the social class you live in are difficult, and the missteps are so subtle, you may never know why you failed.
 

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pupper

I work at a high school with a high percentage of low income and minority students. I regularly hear students say they are going to be doctors or engineers, even though they are failing many classes. I believe there are several reasons for this disconnect. One is that it is much easier for well meaning adults to tell kids, "Anything is possible. You become anything you want." without putting in the hard work of actually helping a kid lay out a realistic plan for what will make this kind of career possible. It is very difficult for kids who don't have families with experience in higher education or professional training to understand the cost and effort involved. Preparing for higher education starts well before high school. Once kids start failing classes, the obstacles can quickly become insurmountable.

We need to start having real, detailed conversations with kids and families, especially those from low income and minority backgrounds, about what it takes to get into and succeed in college. And these conversations need to begin in elementary school. No one wants to discourage a student, but pretending they can become a doctor when they haven't passed any high school science isn't helping them either. It is painful and cruel.

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HerNameIsBuffy
1 minute ago, pupper said:

We need to start having real, detailed conversations with kids and families, especially those from low income and minority backgrounds, about what it takes to get into and succeed in college.

Kids from families with people from higher education and in the professions will unfortunately always have a leg up.  However, what we need to do is change our method of funding education so the kids who are financially disadvantaged get just as many excellent educational opportunities as kids from more affluent neighborhoods.  

When we as a society start recognizing the potential in kids from every neighborhood and fund schools accordingly it will help a lot.

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Not that josh's mom

I see so many people with college degrees who aren't working in those professions. Many people would be better off if they had gone to trade schools and worked in jobs where they had  a talent and interest. A college degree does not guarantee anything except the degree. And bragging rights for some people and parents.

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HerNameIsBuffy
Just now, Not that josh's mom said:

I see so many people with college degrees who aren't working in those professions. Many people would be better off if they had gone to trade schools and worked in jobs where they had  a talent and interest. A college degree does not guarantee anything except the degree. And bragging rights for some people and parents.

I once worked with a process engineer in manufacturing who had a degree in Philosophy from Northwestern.  It's crazy the paths careers can take.

 

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Meggo
3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I once worked with a process engineer in manufacturing who had a degree in Philosophy from Northwestern.  It's crazy the paths careers can take.

 

I am a firm believer that a liberal arts degree will help people think critically. So I think my liberal arts degree from a SMALL local university (go Pioneers who are now Grizzlies!) has served me well. 

I start to get my back up when - example - a friend says "I don't mind my high schooler taking online classes for things he doesn't need - like English & history... I mean - he's going to be an engineer - he doesn't NEED those." 
First of all - your kid is 14. So he might want that now - but who knows how that will change between now & graduation. Heck - I got to 6 months before university graduation and debated changing my English major to architecture... So things change. 

Secondly - the ability to communicate, to think critically, to ask questions - that is going to serve every last kid. So it really rankles me when someone dismisses literature or history classes as throw away. I wasn't allowed to "throw away" my math classes - I had to take them, I had to try my hardest (even though it really is clear that math is NOT my strong suit). I didn't get a pass on Pre-Cal because I wasn't going to do anything in the math or sciences. I don't like it when kids "specialize" at a young age. There are high schools around here that are geared more to maths, more to athletics - where the kids entire DAY is structured around giving them more time to work on their pitch. I just … I struggle with that.

I don't want us to create a society of one-trick-ponies.

 

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Not that josh's mom
2 minutes ago, Meggo said:

I am a firm believer that a liberal arts degree will help people think critically. So I think my liberal arts degree from a SMALL local university (go Pioneers who are now Grizzlies!) has served me well. 

I start to get my back up when - example - a friend says "I don't mind my high schooler taking online classes for things he doesn't need - like English & history... I mean - he's going to be an engineer - he doesn't NEED those." 
First of all - your kid is 14. So he might want that now - but who knows how that will change between now & graduation. Heck - I got to 6 months before university graduation and debated changing my English major to architecture... So things change. 

Secondly - the ability to communicate, to think critically, to ask questions - that is going to serve every last kid. So it really rankles me when someone dismisses literature or history classes as throw away. I wasn't allowed to "throw away" my math classes - I had to take them, I had to try my hardest (even though it really is clear that math is NOT my strong suit). I didn't get a pass on Pre-Cal because I wasn't going to do anything in the math or sciences. I don't like it when kids "specialize" at a young age. There are high schools around here that are geared more to maths, more to athletics - where the kids entire DAY is structured around giving them more time to work on their pitch. I just … I struggle with that.

I don't want us to create a society of one-trick-ponies.

 

Sounds more like mom wants the kid to be an engineer.  I never did figure out what I wanted to be. 

Edited by Not that josh's mom
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Giraffe
17 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

Sounds more like mom wants the kid to be an engineer.  I never did figure out what I wanted to be. 

I’ll be 40 in a few months and most of the time I think I want to be a nurse, but sometimes I think I just want my bachelors and don’t care what it’s in. So...I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up, either. 

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HerNameIsBuffy
8 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I’ll be 40 in a few months and most of the time I think I want to be a nurse, but sometimes I think I just want my bachelors and don’t care what it’s in. So...I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up, either. 

I'm older than you and me neither.

Actually I do know...I want to be a cryptologist who hunts bigfoot from the comfort of my couch.  So if he shows up in my kitchen I'll get right to work!

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Cleopatra7
1 hour ago, pupper said:

I work at a high school with a high percentage of low income and minority students. I regularly hear students say they are going to be doctors or engineers, even though they are failing many classes. I believe there are several reasons for this disconnect. One is that it is much easier for well meaning adults to tell kids, "Anything is possible. You become anything you want." without putting in the hard work of actually helping a kid lay out a realistic plan for what will make this kind of career possible. It is very difficult for kids who don't have families with experience in higher education or professional training to understand the cost and effort involved. Preparing for higher education starts well before high school. Once kids start failing classes, the obstacles can quickly become insurmountable.

We need to start having real, detailed conversations with kids and families, especially those from low income and minority backgrounds, about what it takes to get into and succeed in college. And these conversations need to begin in elementary school. No one wants to discourage a student, but pretending they can become a doctor when they haven't passed any high school science isn't helping them either. It is painful and cruel.

At rich public schools and private schools, the college application process is streamlined in a way that it isn’t at poorer schools, partly because it’s assumed that everyone is going to college. If you need credits or recommendations or whatever, they’ll make sure you get those, and point you towards scholarship information too. I would imagine that many lower income students get bogged down in all the red tape needed just to send off an application. As I mentioned before, unless you’re going to an HBCU or a very diverse public institution (I’m thinking of somewhere like Georgia State University), you’ll probably be the only black student in your classes and if you’ve only gone to majority black schools until then, this can be a major stumbling block (I use the example of blacks, but I think this is applicable for other minority communities). 
 

I would say that relatively few people actually go to college because they enjoy learning. The very fact that so many people think that the humanities and social sciences are unworthy of study says a lot about our society, and explains  lot about how we got our current state (go to college, but don’t study anything that might make you rethink or challenge the status quo). Functionally, college has become what high school used to be about sixty years ago, except you have to pay exorbitant fees and jump through pointless hoops just to get in. It also acts as a way to reinforce pre-existing class and racial hierarchies, where college is just a thing people of a certain class do whether they are academically inclined or not (see the college admission scandal). I think for a lot of people, college has just become a slightly less stupid version of finish school, as illustrated by the ever-rising number of degreed but uneducated people.

Edited by Cleopatra7
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Eponine
2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

At rich public schools and private schools, the college application process is streamlined in a way that it isn’t at poorer schools, partly because it’s assumed that everyone is going to college. If you need credits or recommendations or whatever, they’ll make sure you get those, and point you towards scholarship information too. I would imagine that many lower income students get bogged down in all the red tape needed just to send off an application.

This is exactly the case. My university has a huge population from very poor communities and generational poverty, and a lot of rich white kids. The difference in how poor high schools vs rich high schools work with us for their students is vast, and always has a clear impact on the student's outcome.

Students from wealthy districts have to do almost nothing to apply to college: they write (most of) a short personal statement and might personally ask teachers for recommendations. Their parents or guidance counselors fill out the rest of the application, deal with getting the recommendations in, deal with the fees, monitor deadlines, work out transfer credits, etc etc. Their parents file their FAFSAs and research scholarship opportunities.

Students from poorer districts often have to navigate everything themselves, sometimes with a little help from high school administrators, but they don't know what they don't know - they don't have the resources or background knowledge to ask the right questions. A lot of our students' parents don't speak English so the students have to figure out all the financial stuff, including their parents' financial information, alone. They make mistakes because they don't have the resources to do everything the "proper" way.

 

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mpheels

If you haven’t seen the documentary Step, it’s worth the time to watch. They filmed the senior year of the first class to graduate from the Baltimore Leadership School for Young Women, centered around members of the school step team. The school was founded with the goal of sending all students to post-secondary education of some type, and made sure girls were matched with the best opportunities for thier skills/talents. Admission to a trade school is celebrated just as much as admission to Johns Hopkins. I used to live down the street from BLSYW and got to know some of the girls in the film - they were all remarkable young women. It’s a school with mostly poor, Black students in one of they wealthiest neighborhoods in the city, but school leaders fostered relationships with the neighborhood, so we were all very proud (and protective!) of our student-neighbors. 

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libgirl2
3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm older than you and me neither.

Actually I do know...I want to be a cryptologist who hunts bigfoot from the comfort of my couch.  So if he shows up in my kitchen I'll get right to work!

I always wanted to be an actress and seriously considered going to acting school. I didn't of course. Another thing I wish I had done was study archaeology and or history as both appeal to me. Instead I played it safe and became a lab tech, work I never really liked. AIDS hit the world and suddenly everyone was afraid, especially those handling blood and needles. My co-worker stuck herself with an  infected needle. I was 21, she said to get out of the profession. I bounced around and ended up working in a library for the last 25 years. 

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OutoftheShadows
4 hours ago, Meggo said:

I am a firm believer that a liberal arts degree will help people think critically. So I think my liberal arts degree from a SMALL local university (go Pioneers who are now Grizzlies!) has served me well. 

Do you say hello to Grizz in the O’rena? I live 10 minutes from there, and my kid attended last year, although he transferred this year to a much larger, “green”er school up the road an hour or so. 

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Meggo
4 minutes ago, OutoftheShadows said:

Do you say hello to Grizz in the O’rena? I live 10 minutes from there, and my kid attended last year, although he transferred this year to a much larger, “green”er school up the road an hour or so. 

No - when I went there we were still the Pioneers and our sports teams were kind of a second thought. If you weren't nursing, business or the swim team - no one much noticed you. I don't think we were even in the NCAA then. (we're talking early 90s). Before all the residences got WAY nicer. I was in Hamlin - it was NOT as posh as things are now!! 
So I've never been the O'rena - though I did take aerobics a few times in whatever it was in 1995... 

I wonder if the library got better. I think there was some story about oxygen levels being off in there for a while. (and I always had to order my books up from some other library...) 
 

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OutoftheShadows
2 minutes ago, Meggo said:

No - when I went there we were still the Pioneers and our sports teams were kind of a second thought. If you weren't nursing, business or the swim team - no one much noticed you. I don't think we were even in the NCAA then. (we're talking early 90s). Before all the residences got WAY nicer. I was in Hamlin - it was NOT as posh as things are now!! 
So I've never been the O'rena - though I did take aerobics a few times in whatever it was in 1995... 

I wonder if the library got better. I think there was some story about oxygen levels being off in there for a while. (and I always had to order my books up from some other library...) 
 

The O’rena is quite nice, given the relatively small size of the school. My kid has competed there a few times and it’s a good venue for both competitors and spectators alike. I think the new-ish Beaumont Med School is pretty highly regarded and rapidly expanding. Overall, the facilities are really nice and the school is growing by leaps and bounds. They’re ALWAYS building something new! 

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Wine time!
nokidsmom

 

4 hours ago, Meggo said:

Secondly - the ability to communicate, to think critically, to ask questions - that is going to serve every last kid

My degree from a liberal arts college helped me learn to write better.  Regarding those throwaway English classes?  I have yet to hear from any HR department that they didn't want their applicants to write well.   

 

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QuiverFullofBooks

This is straight-up racist, right? There’s not something I missed?

97FFD4C2-50D3-4570-AF29-46531109E2ED.png

0BB0A7A1-B2A1-43DA-A48D-D914ADEB3C46.png

Edited by QuiverFullofBooks
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AussieKrissy
17 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

This is straight-up racist, right? There’s not something I missed?

97FFD4C2-50D3-4570-AF29-46531109E2ED.png

0BB0A7A1-B2A1-43DA-A48D-D914ADEB3C46.png

Wtf?????? She is social

media clueless as Jill. And Jill ha ha it... 

is she mocking Asian people or mocking Jeremy? Either way she is clueless to how it looks. 

Edited by AussieKrissy

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Maggie Mae

The thing they don't tell you about leaving your poor, less educated family to go to college is that it's socially isolating, as well. You go, you're surrounded by everyone who knows so much more than you. Suddenly the "cool" coat you've always had is "shitty" and then you go home and your old friends haven't changed, but you have, you start to notice all the problems in your family of origin and you don't know where you belong.

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squiddysquid
10 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I'm curious where you are because (from the outside; I'm in earth sciences), medical school in Ontario is pretty much dominated by students who have an undergraduate degree in Biology, Life Sciences, Applied Health Sciences etc. In fact, Ontario has made an effort to broaden the backgrounds of the incoming students on the hope that Arts students may have better empathy!

I think the actual requirements to get in aren't that science-heavy; certainly 2nd-year Organic Chemistry is required but I don't think that many other sci classes are.

Ontario also doesn't have any private unis (unless they're bible colleges) and many uni students here in southern ON are the kids of immigrants. Many of those immigrants want their kids to be Drs/lawyers/engineers, sometimes regardless of the kids' wishes and interests.

The one equivalent of a "snooty liberal arts degree" here might be the Arts and Science degree from McMaster U. It had a high admission average, and many who graduated went on to be professors, lawyers and maybe doctors. However, the ones I knew didn't come off as snooty and most were middle class or upper middle class.

I guess the real snooty types go to Queen's U in Kingston and/or to the US!

I didn't say anything about Liberal arts being snooty?

I mentioned impractical things like ancient Greek.

You go to 6 year medschool straight from high-school here. Not an undergrad and then apply for medschool system.

The second foreign language we learn after English is still French, though 99% will never have a use for that. It would be more practical to learn an Eastern European/Balkan language or Turkish or Arabic but those are immigrant languages and not considered fancy.

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motelmum
1 hour ago, AussieKrissy said:

is she mocking Asian people or mocking Jeremy? Either way she is clueless to how it looks. 

Pretty sure she is mocking Jeremy, just from reading his comment. 

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Cheetah
10 hours ago, pupper said:

I work at a high school with a high percentage of low income and minority students. I regularly hear students say they are going to be doctors or engineers, even though they are failing many classes. I believe there are several reasons for this disconnect.

Even some of the well-off kids can be pretty overly confident of their chances at that age such that it gets in the way of their prospects.  I've spent a lot of time on a couple of the college search boards over the past few years as my older 2 kids were going through the search process and the number of kids who come on and start a thread that goes something like, "I'm applying to all of the Ivy League Schools and Stanford and oh yeah State U but there's no way I want to go there and I have a 3.5 GPA and a 1300 SAT and I was president of the robotics club and played tennis for 4 years... what do you think my chances are?"  And one or more of the seasoned people on the board will strongly suggest that this kid find a few more 'target' or 'safety' schools that he would actually want to go to besides State U and he'll get mad and argue that he knows someone with those stats who got into Cornell or something like that.  And then March comes around and he only gets into State U and can't believe it.  

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QuiverFullofBooks
51 minutes ago, motelmum said:

Pretty sure she is mocking Jeremy, just from reading his comment. 

Yeah, that’s the impression I get from the comments too. Still remarkably clueless.

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