Jump to content
IGNORED

Son of Hephzibah House founder speaks out on Dr. Phil


PianoGal

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Shaquillle Oatmeal said:

Did she mention the big bad scawwwy law firm name publicly or in PM?

I don't think she mentioned it in this thread.  It was in the multitude of emails she sent and she put it in one of the reports she made.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been reading the Love and Logic website and the creators really seem to delight in being mean to children. One example in their preschool section is if you take your child shopping and see them stop to play with something, you don't tell them to not touch, you just sneak off and giggle as they panic thinking they are lost. It is framed as if asking the child to not play with items in the store would expend too much of the mother's energy so it is better to just laugh at the child as they freak out. If parents aren't willing to expend the little bit of energy it takes to tell their preschooler that they shouldn't play with items in the store then having children isn't for them. They probably should just get a pet rock. No need to expend energy caring for it. 

They also advise, even in preschoolers to only give them 10 seconds to respond to a question and after that they lose the ability to make a decision. I'm an adult and knowing that I would only have 10 seconds to make a decision to every choice I was given would give me anxiety. 

If a child is rude the parent is supposed to say that the rudeness makes them so tired that they can't clean the bathroom so the child will need to do it while the parent rests. And if they don't, nothing is said, the parent just goes and takes the child's favorite toy. This isn't logical or loving at all. 

I don't understand the notion of a parent whining about how basic parenting is just too damn energy draining so the child must "pay" in some way. 

  • Upvote 5
  • Angry 2
  • Disgust 3
  • Sad 1
  • WTF 21
  • Thank You 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good lord, that sounds awful.  Nothing loving or logical there.  Those poor kids. 

  • Upvote 10
  • I Agree 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I raised mine to adulthood,  they're more or less thriving. I helped raise the smartest granddaughter in the world, and also am helping with her sister, who has wonderful talents of her own. I went to college and taught preschool and was otherwise involved professionally with little people for 30 years. Everything I have read here about this love and logic is so 100% wrong. There is nothing loving or logical about any of it. I am appalled. Also...before a certain age, which might differ for each child, no one should even think about letting a child go hungry. Someone said, 2 1/2 hours until they eat isn't a big deal. But the child didn't eat from breakfast, it's more like 6 or more hours. So children get hungry and cranky and tired. And yeah, teachers would be the ones dealing with it, along with 20 or more other students and everything that goes along with that. So, please, don't do that, please. 

  • Upvote 17
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, treehugger said:

I have found a rewards chart (we use stickers) to be extremely helpful with reinforcing positive behaviour.  It’s gets modified regularly with issues we are working on and is just a really helpful, no conflict way of addressing expectations and behaviours we want to encourage.  The stickers have monetary value in our house, so the kids have a good incentive to do their chores and behave appropriately. 

I used a reward chart when my son was young.  The first time I recall was when he started kindergarten.  Even though he had been in preschool for 2 years prior, he still had a hard time separating from me at drop off (like many of his peers).  So the first chart was he would get a star for each morning where he could give me a hug (or two) and then head into the classroom.  No punishment for not being able to do so.  I can't recall all the specific rewards, but I think for 5 stars it might have been a McDonald's ice cream cone (cost $1).  If he elected to continue accruing stars, then the rewards increased in value.  I think 10 stars might have been a pack of Pokemon cards.  

Once the new behavior was established, the chart would quietly go away for awhile.  But there were always behaviors I wanted to encourage, like putting away his shoes (without being asked) instead of kicking them off in the living room and leaving them there, or making his bed in the morning.  I didn't give him money for making certain grades but if he got all A's, we'd go out to his choice of a local pizza place or the Sizzler for an inexpensive steak and baked potato meal.

Everyone has a different parenting style that works for them.  For me, I much preferred the reward system than punishment.  Also, I only had one child so he got 100% of my parental focus.  If I had a handful of kids, I know that would have been much more challenging.

  • Upvote 16
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One problem with the “natural consequences “ route is that some consequences can be really bad for a child to experience (e.g., going hungry, getting bugs in your room because you leave dirty plates around, etc.) Another is that some things have no obvious consequences. So when I tell my daughter it’s not good for her to be on a screen hours on end, she can’t see why. The consequence of not taking the screen away means she’s on it even more. I just have to take it away from her.

I’m a teacher too and think sometimes some kids need to fail as a natural consequence of not working, but that can backfire too. Most of the kids who don’t do their work in my classes need extra support and help, so failing just makes them give up. 

  • Upvote 22
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

 

I’m a teacher too and think sometimes some kids need to fail as a natural consequence of not working, but that can backfire too. Most of the kids who don’t do their work in my classes need extra support and help, so failing just makes them give up. 

And often knowledge builds on previous knowledge so if a child fails to learn something they will need to know later it will handicap  them for longer than just that one class they failed to pay attention to.

  • Upvote 11
  • I Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Pleiades_06 said:

One problem with the “natural consequences “ route is that some consequences can be really bad for a child to experience (e.g., going hungry, getting bugs in your room because you leave dirty plates around, etc.) Another is that some things have no obvious consequences. So when I tell my daughter it’s not good for her to be on a screen hours on end, she can’t see why. The consequence of not taking the screen away means she’s on it even more. I just have to take it away from her.

I’m a teacher too and think sometimes some kids need to fail as a natural consequence of not working, but that can backfire too. Most of the kids who don’t do their work in my classes need extra support and help, so failing just makes them give up. 

Yeah, I really don't get how natural consequences work with really little kids. Like a two year old wants to play in the street, so you let them deal with the natural consequence of...being hit by a semi?

I'll be honest, everyone I know who leaned into the "natural consequences" route of raising kids, and made a big deal out of how they were doing so, didn't really have the greatest results when their kids became adults. But most were wealthy families where the kids could be given a sinecure and financial support so in the end they were kept from real adult "natural consequences."  

Then again, on the opposite extreme, I worked with an evangelical woman whose 25 year old son lived with her and she grounded him because he didn't take his car in to get inspected in time. Sounds like it was time to just let natural consequences kick in...

  • Upvote 15
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Pleiades_06 said:

One problem with the “natural consequences “ route is that some consequences can be really bad for a child to experience (e.g., going hungry, getting bugs in your room because you leave dirty plates around, etc.) Another is that some things have no obvious consequences. So when I tell my daughter it’s not good for her to be on a screen hours on end, she can’t see why. The consequence of not taking the screen away means she’s on it even more. I just have to take it away from her.

This, precisely. Most natural consequences are so far in the future that they mean nothing to a young child. Eating chocolate for dinner a few times doesn't make anyone fat, so there is no immediate reason to stop the behavior, and by the time the child is overweight, the damage is already massive and maybe irreversible. The same is true for neglecting schoolwork, not brushing teeth, skipping doctor appointments, not wearing a bike helmet etc. The "natural consequences" of some of these behaviors might significantly hurt a child's future perspectives and health while being absolutely unimpressive on the short term.

Also, collateral damage : the natural consequence of not feeding the dog would be the dog's untimely death. The natural consequence of getting bugs or attracting rats would be a huge impact on the parent's quality of life as well as financial damage... for the parents, not the child. In order to limit "natural consequences" to an acceptable level, they have to be almost completely fabricated by the parents, and are thus a punishment.

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

If a child is rude the parent is supposed to say that the rudeness makes them so tired that they can't clean the bathroom so the child will need to do it while the parent rests. And if they don't, nothing is said, the parent just goes and takes the child's favorite toy. This isn't logical or loving at all. 

This is psychotic ! The worst kind of manipulative, emotionally abusive parenting - and it sounds precisely like some of the fundie parents discussed on this board. Don't do this or you will make your mother unhappy... or your father will cry and pray for your salvation... or we will all fast every night until you have a change of heart...

  • Upvote 9
  • Disgust 1
  • I Agree 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it makes the parents seem so fucking fragile...Children bicker and leave their toys on the floor, as children do? And how does it affect the parents? "I can't clean the bathroom, because I am absolutely unable to function...i suffer so much if I hear your noises..." Hardly the dependable rock that children need.

  • Upvote 12
  • I Agree 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

And it makes the parents seem so fucking fragile...Children bicker and leave their toys on the floor, as children do? And how does it affect the parents? "I can't clean the bathroom, because I am absolutely unable to function...i suffer so much if I hear your noises..." Hardly the dependable rock that children need.

I did a lot of "I can't hear you when you're whining" with my daughter. Oh my God, she was Wendy Whiner in the flesh (old SNL reference). She'd get so frustrated...then she'd stop whining. If I said I "suffered" if my kids made noise, I'd have NEVER gotten anything done. This "Love & Logic" thing is total bullshit. It is neither. 

I wasn't a perfect mom...God knows I wasn't. I'm still not...and parenting adult children is HARD!!! But, I can't see intentionally doing some of these things to my kids. 

  • Upvote 3
  • I Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My daughter is absent minded. She has a lunch account, so she knows to buy lunch if she forgets to bring her lunch. If were to start happening frequently, I would talk to her just like I did when I noticed she was buying slushies and other treats on a daily basis without our permission. 

She once did not take care of a friend's books and it was badly damaged. The consequence was a discussion with her parents about the importance of taking care of other people's belongings and her paying for the book to be replaced. 

Children make mistakes and some are unintentionally forgetful. Reasonable consequences are necessary to that help correct behavior and teach them to become a better human being. I don't understand being cruel to children.

  • Upvote 6
  • I Agree 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s just really not that hard to come up with safe, sensible, age-appropriate consequences for certain behaviours that need a little more work.  You weren’t ready for bed on time, that means you don’t get to read books in bed after. You break something, you help clean it up (I remember I had a careless phase as a pre-teen where I broke at least a mug a week for a month straight, so my mom started charging me 25c a mug.  I only had to pay for one).  No one is hurting anyone, and no one is pissed off or manipulating or guilting anyone. 
 

I do not get this this ridiculously dramatic, over-the-top Love and Logic crap.  Good grief. 

  • Upvote 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

at one point, she that shall not be named says in MO counselors don’t need degrees. Damn that is as scary as fundi mid-wives

then the same person said “I do 3 clients at a time”...yeah words matter!
 

On 6/5/2020 at 1:39 AM, apandaaries said:

It’s a super-flounce on repeat.

Groundhog Day featuring bill murray!

On 6/6/2020 at 4:48 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I was thinking a pitcher of fuzzy navels and another of French martinis.  Who’s working the bar?

I’ll work the bar! I have sass and sarcasm, and I’m smart and make a great drink. 

  • Upvote 1
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

at one point, she that shall not be named says in MO counselors don’t need degrees. Damn that is as scary as fundi mid-wives

She also claimed that MO requires everyone to use Love and Logic. I couldn't find anything that supports that claim, but it does look like they market this program towards schools so I could see how it could be true. 

  • Upvote 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is from the Parenting with love and logic book  by Foster Cline. (Courtesy of Google books).

Go ahead and let your five year old be assaulted if you think it has anything to do with either love or logic.

kuva.png.177358742d5a0f688c61bf94d32cc9b2.png

  • Disgust 1
  • WTF 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is from the Parenting with love and logic book  by Foster Cline. (Courtesy of Google books).
Go ahead and let your five year old be assaulted if you think it has anything to do with either love or logic.
kuva.png.177358742d5a0f688c61bf94d32cc9b2.png

What the actual FUCK did I just read? Fuck no I’m not letting little Johnny get hurt by neighbourhood bullies.
  • Upvote 9
  • I Agree 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the ever loving hell?! Letting your young child be assaulted by older children is not love or logic. This program should be called "How to be a shitty parent who puts zero effort into helping their children become responsible adults."

  • Upvote 7
  • I Agree 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

None of what I just read is loving or logical.

  • Upvote 6
  • I Agree 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So if I understand this correctly:  the parents are so fragile that they get exhausted by verbal disagreements with children to the point that they can’t perform household tasks.  But kindergarteners can be beaten until they are bruised and bloody, and it’s just a life lesson.  
What the everloving fuck is wrong with these people?

  • Upvote 9
  • I Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

None of what I just read is loving or logical.

That book was written by people who lack love and are short on logic too.  I had a strong willed, very active and intelligent child.  I chose not to use corporal punishment.  I didn't choose to love him more than anyone else - that just spontaneously happened about 30 seconds after I found out I was pregnant.  Then it multiplied by 1000 the moment I first held him.  Purposefully being cruel to him?  That's a hard no.  I was an imperfect mom.  I made mistakes.  But shit, I tried my best.  The parents who find nasty ways to be mean to their own kids should never have had children in the first place.

  • Upvote 11
  • I Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

This is from the Parenting with love and logic book  by Foster Cline. (Courtesy of Google books).

Go ahead and let your five year old be assaulted if you think it has anything to do with either love or logic.

kuva.png.177358742d5a0f688c61bf94d32cc9b2.png

I was in favor of letting my kids make the right choice, but if my 3 year old didn't want to get in the car, rainy night or not, I picked their ass up and put them in their car seat.   Maybe that was a mean option.  I don't know.   I never had problems with my kids in stores either.  If they threw a tantrum we left.   Since going to the store usually ended up with getting a small treat of some kind it only took once to stop store tantrums.  

When I took my baby/toddler age kid into a public place (store, restaurant, park, etc) I was prepared to cut the trip short immediately if a real tantrum began.  A little fussing about something I let go if it was easily resolved.  IT didn't take long for them to learn that tantrum equaled loss of fun.

Tantrums were usually due to tiredness or hunger, IME.  I made sure we went after naps and I had a snack on hand in case we were out longer than I expected and hunger started to kick in.   That seemed to stop most problems for us.  I realize all kids are different.

  • Upvote 12
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to admit, I used some of the L&L ideas, especially the, “listening to the whining (or whatever) is stressful and draining; you can go load the dishes to make up for it.” It never occurred to me what the underlying message was. I was just glad to have something recommended that didn’t involve spanking (although I did that too, when they were little ?).

But as always, I never could quite do it right. Setting kids up to fail, leaving your 5yo at the mercy of the big boys, giving away pets…I could never do it, and never really wanted to. So another thing I failed at as an Evangelical. Thank God.

My kids now are all young adults. They say they remember the mistakes, but think of them as mistakes, not spirit-crushing patterns of abuse. They think of that stuff as exceptions to the rule, not the norm. I am so thankful.

  • Upvote 6
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys, the nailpolish maneuver worked great here! *applause*

Just a personal note to say that I need a nailpolish maneuver on Facebook. I have a family segment that is racist, conspiracy-spouting, etc. One person in particular comments on my Facebook posts. And just goes ON and ON. Some of my friends have tried responding to him in a thoughtful way and it just prolongs the agony.

I've unfollowed him to keep my blood pressure down, but haven't unfriended because I want to be able to see baby pics. I guess I should block him from seeing my posts, but I hate to feel like I'm participating in shielding him from seeing things he doesn't want to see (ie--non-Fox-News reality).

Anyway, just wanted to vent, sorry, carry on!!

Edited by Petronella
  • Upvote 3
  • Rufus Bless 1
  • Love 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Petronella said:

Guys, the nailpolish maneuver worked great here! *applause*

I regret nothing. It was fun! ;)

 

  • Upvote 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.