Son of Hephzibah House founder speaks out on Dr. Phil

[Walking Cat Bed]

I nominate the MCU actors/actresses for the FJ Book. Even if I'd personally skip one or two (Pratt's not my favorite Chris and Tom Holland is a bit young for me), the entire roster has a good variety. And I'll stick with black nail polish -- it's my favorite neutral. 

[Granwych]

18 hours ago, DaisyD said:

I use gel polishes because I am also impatient. 60 seconds in the lamp is the only way I can not fuck them up. I started doing my own nails when I discovered the Naio Nails YouTube channel. I will never have her skills, but she inspires me to try. 

I'm a nail biter and the last few years have me biting with a vengeance.  I saw a line of press-ons called Static. They come in 3 different shapes, different colors, and even come in clear colorless.  I'll put a bit of Fun-tac on the underside of each nail, stick a toothpick in each one, and then stick each toothpicked nail into a niece of styrofoam.   Those should be easy to paint with whatever polish I want, let 'am dry, and then glue 'em onto my sadly bitten-short nails.

I saw these first on a View Your Deal and paid half price for 3 sets. I've gotten some good stuff from those promotions.

[Destiny]

1 hour ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

I nominate the MCU actors/actresses for the FJ Book. Even if I'd personally skip one or two (Pratt's not my favorite Chris and Tom Holland is a bit young for me), the entire roster has a good variety. And I'll stick with black nail polish -- it's my favorite neutral. 

Can I have Natasha? 15/10 right there. You can keep all the dudes. Ooh, and I would like T'Challa's captain of the guard. I'm blanking on her name, but she was played lupita yongo (sp?). 

Unless I can have evil Chris Eccleston from Thor 2 too? Then I'll take a dude.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Destiny

[neuroticcat]

Natural recent consequence here. School librarian emails to tell me young teen has ten books out for months and final due date is coming up and we will be charged. I let her know I’ll forward it on to said kid, but it’s up to him. I check in to see if he got email. He says yes and will take care of it. He finds eight books and can’t be bothered to search for other two. He pays for them. 
 

I think older  kids Especially should also be free to choose the “wrong” thing if they’d rather have the consequence. That’s what we often do as adults. 

For any parents of youngish kiddos, I highly recommend the series How to Talk so Your Children will Listen for empathetic respectful parenting that does actually wonder how children, as actual persons, respond and how parents can truly listen and give them life tools. 

So transformative...especially if you e come out if authoritarian parenting at all.

[Four is Enough]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I’m not a teacher, but I wouldn’t be able to let a kid go without lunch and I’d have done the same.  

I have to say that Two has the most beautiful eyes, and they're kind of "droopy"... if I were not his mother, I might say "bedroom eyes", (he is now 25 and engaged) but as a child, he could look SO PATHETIC.. without changing position. He had that 3d grade teacher, who was unmarried and childless, yes, very sympathetic.. wrapped firmly around his finger.

Thanks for the memory laugh.

[Shaquillle Oatmeal]

7 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I'm remembering a time when Two was really pushing the envelope with "forgetting" things. In actuality, he was basically lazy.

Gym day? wore the wrong uniform, wanted it brought to school for him. Library day? "forgot" the book. Lunch? didn't want what he prepared the night before  , "forgot" it. (none of this was new to him; he was in third grade I had a schedule on the refrigerator, and basically mornings was me saying, You have band; you have library, you have gym, etc) I usually had them make sure that homework was done, library books were packed, instruments were with book bags, gym  uniforms were pulled out, lunches were made, the night before.

So one day, I got a note home that Two had not brought lunch to school, (we didn't have lunch service, all was brought from home) and the teacher had mobilized the students, who gave him parts of theirs. I wrote the teacher a note, asking her that if he did it again, to give him his milk and to let him go without.. just for the day.. and the next day, she Called Me to tell me that he'd forgotten it again, and had to ask others for parts of their lunches again.. and to please make sure he got lunch.. I explained to her that I was trying to teach him about the consequences of not preparing himself for his day... he was NINE. and to please not give him anything. (I picked the kids up at school, he wouldn't have starved for 2.5 hours, but..) 

She acted as if I were the most horrible parent. She wouldn't do it. 

I felt it was logical and reasonable. I still do. I would have been that way if *I* had forgotten my lunch as a child.. but now I'm wondering just how many people agree with me.

 

 

I dont think it's acceptable for teachers to undermine parenting.

Maybe add the option that child can have school lunch but would need to earn the money to purchase it. Even if it's after the fact.

A few hunger pangs are a good reminder.

[Shaquillle Oatmeal]

Just curious. Has anyone actually heard from Lucinda's lawyer? Lucinda has a history of threatening others with legal consequences. To my knowledge, previous threats are still empty & idle.

[EmmieJ]

8 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I'm remembering a time when Two was really pushing the envelope with "forgetting" things. In actuality, he was basically lazy.

Gym day? wore the wrong uniform, wanted it brought to school for him. Library day? "forgot" the book. Lunch? didn't want what he prepared the night before  , "forgot" it. (none of this was new to him; he was in third grade I had a schedule on the refrigerator, and basically mornings was me saying, You have band; you have library, you have gym, etc) I usually had them make sure that homework was done, library books were packed, instruments were with book bags, gym  uniforms were pulled out, lunches were made, the night before.

So one day, I got a note home that Two had not brought lunch to school, (we didn't have lunch service, all was brought from home) and the teacher had mobilized the students, who gave him parts of theirs. I wrote the teacher a note, asking her that if he did it again, to give him his milk and to let him go without.. just for the day.. and the next day, she Called Me to tell me that he'd forgotten it again, and had to ask others for parts of their lunches again.. and to please make sure he got lunch.. I explained to her that I was trying to teach him about the consequences of not preparing himself for his day... he was NINE. and to please not give him anything. (I picked the kids up at school, he wouldn't have starved for 2.5 hours, but..) 

She acted as if I were the most horrible parent. She wouldn't do it. 

I felt it was logical and reasonable. I still do. I would have been that way if *I* had forgotten my lunch as a child.. but now I'm wondering just how many people agree with me.

 

 

I would not like being asked to enforce that consequence.  Is that really fair to the teacher, to be the one who has to look at a hungry kid the remainder of the day?  I understand the lesson you wanted to teach, but if I were asked to let a child go hungry, I'd decline because it would go against my own principles.

[JanasTattooParlor]

37 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

I would not like being asked to enforce that consequence.  Is that really fair to the teacher, to be the one who has to look at a hungry kid the remainder of the day?  I understand the lesson you wanted to teach, but if I were asked to let a child go hungry, I'd decline because it would go against my own principles.

Teacher here! Yeah I would’ve given the kid a mini bag of chips that I keep for kids who forget lunch or don’t have money for lunch either at school or home. For me it wouldn’t be me trying to undermine the parent or thinking the parent is cruel, it’s the fact that a child is not able to learn when their basic needs are not met. So much research has been done to show that students who don’t get food for breakfast or lunch do not learn to the same capacity as their fed peers. It’s part of the reason that many low income schools offer free breakfast or dedicate the first half hour of the day to breakfast for all students and that many school districts nationwide have continued meal services despite school being online. Kids need food in order to be able to learn and as a teacher, I always keeps snacks just in case and happily give them to students who need them. 
 

And I’m going to respectfully disagree @Shaquillle Oatmeal. When parent teachings are not helping their child succeed academically/socially or are emotionally/verbally/spiritually/physically abusive, I will absolutely go against a parent’s teaching everytime. I have had so many instances of parents encouraging their child to be rude, argumentative, cheat, or to try to teach the child a lesson in a way that is detrimental to the child and it’s my job as an educator to do what’s best for my kids and to show them how to be good people before they become adults and have to go out into the world. 

[Shaquillle Oatmeal]

7 minutes ago, JanasTattooParlor said:

 

And I’m going to respectfully disagree @Shaquillle Oatmeal. When parent teachings are not helping their child succeed academically/socially or are emotionally/verbally/spiritually/physically abusive, I will absolutely go against a parent’s teaching everytime. I have had so many instances of parents encouraging their child to be rude, argumentative, cheat, or to try to teach the child a lesson in a way that is detrimental to the child and it’s my job as an educator to do what’s best for my kids and to show them how to be good people before they become adults and have to go out into the world. 

That's fair. Forgot to take into account that there are parents out there who parent as you have described. And thank you for teaching & loving on kids. You are an unsung hero.

[Caroline]

20 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I read the first five pages of the thread and am skipping ahead because...drama! 

I did want to say I was introduced to Love and Logic as a young parent. It doesn’t advocate spanking as I remember but it still has control of children as a goal...not respectful or empathetic. I bailed because a lot of the techniques felt manipulative. For instance saying : your bickering makes me too tired to hear your requests. I’m going to need you to do x so I can regain my energy. 
 

Anyway it didn’t feel very logical to me...just another way to get kids to behave. I’m not a fan.

 

Is the author the same Dr. Laura who was on the radio and always nasty to everyone who called with a dilemma?  She was Jewish I think, but I always got a Fundie Christian vibe in her advice.  I would listen out of pure fascination.  She managed to discourage quite a few callers and I couldn't figure out why anyone would call her with a problem.  It was always the caller's fault no matter what the question was.  

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, EmmieJ said:

but if I were asked to let a child go hungry, I'd decline because it would go against my own principles.

I agree. A hungry child is not going to learn well, will be more prone to be a distraction and it will just make life harder on the teacher. Children are at school to lean and they need food to do so. If my child suddenly started purposely leaving their lunch box I would make it part of my job to ensure they absolutely didn't. Having food is an essential part of the school day and if the child isn't bringing food then the parent needs to make sure they bring it. I would sit the child down and start trying to figure out what is actually going on. Refusing to bring lunch to school is a red flag that something else is going on and the underlying cause needs to be addressed. 

For the other example with the dog. If my child forgot to feed the dog, we would have to have a long talk about how animals need to be cared for and find out what caused the child to forget. I would then watch for the next month or so to make sure the child is feeding the dog. Getting rid of the dog even short term is just cruel for the dog and the child. 

 

[dawbs]

Theres also the variance of what individuals are capable of at different developmental state. Some 9 yos are capable of remembering daily lunch. Some are not.  Clearly, if the kid didn't "learn his lesson" going hungry once or twice, he either wasn't capable at that moment of learning or this wasn't the way to teach this lesson. 

I'm a 40-something functional professional adult who is routinely put in charge of large numbers of kids (besides mine) and I'm quite capable of forgetting my lunch.

My parents tried such things with me, working under the logic of 'surely if she forgets her lunch every day for a week she'll learn".

Funny, it doesn't work that way.

It just left me hungry and in a frequent panic about what I was forgetting.  And I'm sti more than capableof forgetting my lunch-still haven't learned. Because it'snot possibleto cancel ADD and magic up an ability to rememberstuff.

(and as an adult who can take steps, I have a few bucks to buy lunch. And i have a stash of snacks at work. And my coworkers-who are also adulting adults left in charge of large numbers of kids- frequently make use of it when THEY forget lunches)

 

Hungry kids do poorly at learning, emotional regulation, interpersonal skills, etc. Besides just being miserable and sad.  I've made sure students are fed before, I'll probably do it again. If someone wants that lesson taught they can do it where I'm not party to it

[Marmion]

21 hours ago, ignorantobserver said:

Thank you ! This was precisely the impression I gained from reading the review of the book. It just sounds like parents inventing creative and sadistic punishments in a random and impredictable manner, and then pretending that those punishments are somehow "natural consequences" of pretty benign infractions. Arbitrarily refusing help and letting the children live in fear of accidentally doing something the despotic parents decide is worthy of "consequences".

I wonder is this might have had anything to do with this case , a couple years back .  https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dad-allegedly-cut-teen-daughter-hair-short-punishment-article-1.3808194  

I said " might" , as I do not wish to presume anything for certain , lest a certain " Karen " try to make a case out of it .

11 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I'm remembering a time when Two was really pushing the envelope with "forgetting" things. In actuality, he was basically lazy.

Gym day? wore the wrong uniform, wanted it brought to school for him. Library day? "forgot" the book. Lunch? didn't want what he prepared the night before  , "forgot" it. (none of this was new to him; he was in third grade I had a schedule on the refrigerator, and basically mornings was me saying, You have band; you have library, you have gym, etc) I usually had them make sure that homework was done, library books were packed, instruments were with book bags, gym  uniforms were pulled out, lunches were made, the night before.

So one day, I got a note home that Two had not brought lunch to school, (we didn't have lunch service, all was brought from home) and the teacher had mobilized the students, who gave him parts of theirs. I wrote the teacher a note, asking her that if he did it again, to give him his milk and to let him go without.. just for the day.. and the next day, she Called Me to tell me that he'd forgotten it again, and had to ask others for parts of their lunches again.. and to please make sure he got lunch.. I explained to her that I was trying to teach him about the consequences of not preparing himself for his day... he was NINE. and to please not give him anything. (I picked the kids up at school, he wouldn't have starved for 2.5 hours, but..) 

She acted as if I were the most horrible parent. She wouldn't do it. 

I felt it was logical and reasonable. I still do. I would have been that way if *I* had forgotten my lunch as a child.. but now I'm wondering just how many people agree with me.

 

 

This somewhat , but not exactly , reminds me of when I was in third grade , and enrolled in this one public / state school . I had some of my classes in the learning disabled classroom , due in part I think to the academic set back of the prior year , which I have detailed in the other response posted below this one . Anyway , this one day I had to eat lunch in the classroom , instead of the cafeteria ; as I hadn't been able to finish a writing assignment , and then I had ended up forgetting my lunch box in there .  I hadn't realized it until I had gotten to the bottom of the staircase , to meet up with my mom , after school was dismissed for the day .  My mom was like , " Where's your lunch box ? " , and then I was like " Oh no " .  My mom then told me that I would just have to climb up the long staircase to retrieve it . I asked her to accompany me , as I didn't think that I would be allowed to get it back after school hours . She agreed , on the condition that she remain standing outside the door of the classroom , while I go in and ask for it myself . Well , it had turned out as I had feared . The teacher had refused to let me have the lunch box , as a punishment for being scatterbrained . So my mother had to come in and inform the teacher that we would be taking the lunch box , even without her approval , and that the teacher should be more considerate , and gracious to her students .  So while I do think that children should be expected to be organized , they shouldn't necessarily be expected to always be perfect .  

 

9 hours ago, ignorantobserver said:

I don't think it's cruel to have a child go without food for two hours (and I have been an extremely forgetful child myself). The teacher wasn't wrong to be worried about a little one who seemingly didn't get anything to eat at home, but once you explained the situation, she should have stopped interfering.

Also : don't nine-year-olds frequently swap or share food ? If the teacher hadn't intervened, your Two probably would have asked one of his friends to share with him, and after a few days, the social pressure of having to give something back would have been a good incentive to remind him of his lunch. Children are not that helpless...

This reminds me of when I was in second grade , at the same school .  I was told by the school guidance counselor , whom had been tutoring me , as I had fallen behind in my studies , due to my having been previously enrolled in this one A.C.E. backed church held homeschool co-op   , before I had transferred out in the midst of the school year * , to come with her to this other second grade classroom , and pick out at random a student to serve as my lunchmate ; as she wanted the two of us to sit by ourselves at this one table , so that she could locate and pick me up directly from the cafeteria .  Well , as I had later learned , the boy I had chosen seemingly was this UFO cult member . ( I kid you not , his last name was even the same as this guy , whom I had later stumbled upon information about , as part of my research into various cults .  { https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Ballard , https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/"I_AM"_Activity } )  At any rate , one of his rules for me , as his friend , and follower , was that for every piece of chocolate I bring in my lunch box , I make sure to bring him a piece as well , lest he require the only piece be forfeit to him . He claimed that he had needed the chocolate to convert into fuel for his spaceship ; which based upon his description he made to me by sticking a straw through a paper plate , looked rather like what I had later learned was called a Haunebu II .  

Spoiler

https://fhsw.fandom.com/wiki/Haunebu  Every time I hear this song , I am reminded of my rather brief partial year in a UFO cult , and chuckle at the memory of how weird it all was .

Spoiler

 

  But I had gone along with it , simply due to my haven been desperate for the protection , and companionship of a friend ; as I being a newly arrived transfer had felt lonely , and scared ,and so in retrospect had been a prime candidate for being a cult prospect . That's if cults led and made up of schoolchildren can be taken seriously by adults , as being worthy of consideration as such .  In any case , I feel that this does raise the question of the potentiality of children from a cult background recruiting other children , whom they meet at school ,  into their cults . How are children from cults , whether or not the parents are still active members , to be integrated into the student body , without the risk that they might unduely influence their peers into going along with the underlying beliefs , as presented to them , no matter how bizarre they may seem ? And could juvenile cults be as dangerous as their adult counterparts ?  I suppose though that this all depends on how one defines what a cult is . Like , were the Columbine shooters a cult ,  or how about the " Plastics" , to give a less extreme pop cultural example , from the film " Mean Girls " ?  And if it is wrong for impressionable schoolchildren to be recruited into such cults , or cliques if one prefers , how is this to be counteracted ? These are the questions I ponder , and feel has often been an overlooked aspect of the issues related to cult activity .  * More to the original topic of this thread , punitive schools , such as Hephzibah House , have been known to use ACE materials , as curriculum .  https://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/ace-aiding-and-abetting-child-abusers/#more-1884  The only difference between cases such as these , and my own , was that being that the church we had held it in was United Methodist , rather than IFB , we weren't subjected to corporal punishment . Although we did still have a point based system comparable to that of the People's Republic of China .  

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/31/662436265/china-tests-a-social-credit-score  

Quote

ACE prescribes a system of rewards and punishments for students. Those who achieve academic and behavioral goals are awarded privileges such as extended break times and the freedom to move without permission

https://virtualschooling.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/guest-blogger-examining-accelerated-christian-education/

Edited June 8, 2020 by Marmion

[mango_fandango]

Yeah, like @dawbs mentioned, there’s a definite difference between a kid who “forgets” stuff deliberately and one who has something like inattentive ADHD and genuinely cannot remember stuff like that. I don’t have kids so I don’t know what I’d be like with a kid, because it’d depend on them and what they were like, whether they had something like ADHD or not. 

[church_of_dog]

1 hour ago, mango_fandango said:

Yeah, like @dawbs mentioned, there’s a definite difference between a kid who “forgets” stuff deliberately and one who has something like inattentive ADHD and genuinely cannot remember stuff like that. I don’t have kids so I don’t know what I’d be like with a kid, because it’d depend on them and what they were like, whether they had something like ADHD or not. 

I don't have kids either, but I've thought a lot about the general topic of "self management" or "executive function" especially in recent years as my mom was struggling with incipient dementia.

She never had great self-management skills and after the dementia was apparent, I noticed how she would completely deny that her being forgetful even existed as an ongoing thing, treating each lapse as a one-off and insisting "I'll remember next time" without any other action needed, even when the situation was extreme enough (such as needing to remember to do something first thing after waking up).

I realized that what she was missing was the ability to respond to the forgetting by inventing or adopting an appropriate memory-aid strategy:  daily planner habit, alarm clock, sticky note, pill organizer, etc.

I also recall that as an older kid, like maybe around ten onward, I was pretty good at figuring out what kind of memory-aid I needed for various things, like putting things by the door the night before so I wouldn't forget them in the morning.  Obviously kids reach that point at different ages, and some maybe not at all.

What would stump me is if what appears to be a simple habit of forgetting is actually an acting out of other issues.  I wish I understood more of that aspect of psychology. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by church_of_dog

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

Yeah, like @dawbs mentioned, there’s a definite difference between a kid who “forgets” stuff deliberately and one who has something like inattentive ADHD and genuinely cannot remember stuff like that. I don’t have kids so I don’t know what I’d be like with a kid, because it’d depend on them and what they were like, whether they had something like ADHD or not. 

Kids can have issues with forgetting without a diagnosis.  They are kids, if they are struggling with basic stuff that’s for the parents to intervene and help whether that’s just some organizational tips or checking every day to make sure kid has lunch while working on the problem.

[treehugger]

I have found a rewards chart (we use stickers) to be extremely helpful with reinforcing positive behaviour.  It’s gets modified regularly with issues we are working on and is just a really helpful, no conflict way of addressing expectations and behaviours we want to encourage.  The stickers have monetary value in our house, so the kids have a good incentive to do their chores and behave appropriately. 

[Shaquillle Oatmeal]

So, I asked @Lucinda who her atty is. She told me ****** is her counsel of record in her crusade against FJers. So, I contacted *****. It's actually the name of a law firm; not the name of an individual attorney. Their law firm & legal shield arm both denied that any lawyers in their firm represent her in any matter at this time.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by dawbs
redacting personal information

[HerNameIsBuffy]

24 minutes ago, Shaquillle Oatmeal said:

So, I asked @Lucinda who her atty is. She told me **** is her counsel of record in her crusade against FJers. So, I contacted *****. It's actually the name of a law firm; not the name of an individual attorney. Their law firm & legal shield arm both denied that any lawyers in their firm represent her in any matter at this time.

 

Is there a reason you need to make this a public fight and involve us?  

also, in the TOU

 

whatever people do outside of FJ isn’t our business, but don’t touch the poop off site and then come here looking for collaboration or head pats.  

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by dawbs
redacting personal information

[Shaquillle Oatmeal]

59 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Is there a reason you need to make this a public fight and involve us?  

also, in the TOU

 

whatever people do outside of FJ isn’t our business, but don’t touch the poop off site and then come here looking for collaboration or head pats.  

 

 

It's relevant because she lied. Again. It's relevant to know that FJ likely won't be getting any threatening letters from attorneys as she has claimed. Also, she messaged the information to me via FJ. I don't have any means of corresponding with her outside of FJ. Nor do I care to... NOT looking for head pats because I am quite capable of encouraging, validating & motivating myself. I'm also not one to take kindly to threats against legally-protected free speech.

She involved FJ & members in threats of legal action. It's fair game to make folks aware that her threats are idle.

[dawbs]

Does tFJ seem like we're very interested in her lies?
People lie.  It happens alllll the time here (esp w/ flouncy fundies).  People are bitchy and lie. 

People contact Curious on the regular to threaten legal action they will never pursue--if she hadn't come onto this thread to bitch about it the mod team and the rest of the FJ community would be blissfully unaware of this tempest in a teapot.  Threatening against free speech is a daily occurance by blustering idiots--I mean, go to twitter and follow the history of Devon Nunes's cow.
(I highly reccomend it, it's quite hilarious.  Fucking letigious asswipe.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-20/abcarian-sunday-column)

most of the response you're going to get on FJ to this nonsense is always going to be a sigh and 'whatever' because, the sky is blue, fundies lie, jackasses threaten lawsuits ,it's monday and water is wet

[dawbs]

Did y'all know, tru true story, that when my sainted grandmother (one of the wisest people, esp w/ regards to kids, I have ever known) had us, on occasion when we sisters were ready for murder (because, you know, SIBLINGS) she would nail-polish mauver us?

She would literally then say it was time to paint nails (always bright red) and that would force us to sit near each other politely for like 10 minutes so we didn't have so much siblicide rage (truth)

I can't paint my nails today, because I'm currently LITERALLY waiting for a dump truck to deliver mulch, but I invite all of us to do it anyhow.

 

[Curious]

19 hours ago, Shaquillle Oatmeal said:

Just curious. Has anyone actually heard from Lucinda's lawyer? Lucinda has a history of threatening others with legal consequences. To my knowledge, previous threats are still empty & idle.

Nope and I didn't expect one considering she reversed the name of the law firm (probably to make it sound scarier) and misspelled it.  

[Shaquillle Oatmeal]

3 minutes ago, Curious said:

Nope and I didn't expect one considering she reversed the name of the law firm (probably to make it sound scarier) and misspelled it.  

Did she mention the big bad scawwwy law firm name publicly or in PM?