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Posted (edited)

Looks like the UMC likely will split in two later this year;

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A group of leaders of the United Methodist Church, the second-largest Protestant denomination in the United States, announced on Friday a plan that would formally split the church, citing “fundamental differences” over same-sex marriage after years of division.

The plan would sunder a denomination with 13 million members globally — roughly half of them in the United States — and create at least one new “traditionalist Methodist” denomination that would continue to ban same-sex marriage as well as the ordination of gay and lesbian clergy.

It seems likely that the majority of the denomination’s churches in the United States would remain in the existing United Methodist Church, which would become a more liberal-leaning institution as conservative congregations worldwide depart.

A separation in the Methodist church, a denomination long home to a varied mix of left and right, had been brewing for years, if not decades. It had become widely seen as likely after a contentious general conference in St. Louis last February, when 53 percent of church leaders and lay members voted to tighten the ban on same-sex marriage, declaring that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.”

I'm of two minds about this.  I'm sad to see that it came to this, but at the same time I think it's for the best since many Methodists here in the US support LGBTQ and remaining in one denomination with the anti-gay faction was forcing them to not be true to themselves.

Edited by Coconut Flan
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Posted

I'm with you. Splits are painful but they are sometimes for the best. I'm in the Presbyterian Church USA and while we didn't have a formal split, many of our more conservative congregations moved into the ECO (Evangelical Covenant Order of) Presbyterians a few years back. Our congregation's discussion about whether or not to move to ECO was absolutely brutal. The sleepless nights and tears kind of brutal. Those of us who are more progressive hung in there and in the end we lost our pastor (good riddance) and 1/3 of the congregation. As hard as it was to lose some of the "pillars" of the congregation I do think that, in the end, I'm glad it happened because now our congregation is more free to reach out to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

I'm with you. Splits are painful but they are sometimes for the best. I'm in the Presbyterian Church USA and while we didn't have a formal split, many of our more conservative congregations moved into the ECO (Evangelical Covenant Order of) Presbyterians a few years back. Our congregation's discussion about whether or not to move to ECO was absolutely brutal. The sleepless nights and tears kind of brutal. Those of us who are more progressive hung in there and in the end we lost our pastor (good riddance) and 1/3 of the congregation. As hard as it was to lose some of the "pillars" of the congregation I do think that, in the end, I'm glad it happened because now our congregation is more free to reach out to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

Yes, I'm in the Episcopal Church, which has had plenty of experience with these splits.  Most of the splits took place before I joined the church but we were (and still are) dealing with the aftereffects after I joined up.  Looking at how the UMC is handling the split I wish the Episcopal Church had handled it as well as the UMC is now.

I think at least some of the pain could have been avoided if the Episcopal Church had come to the realization that some people were never going to accept moving in to the 20th century, let alone the 21st and it would be better to work with them on a somewhat amicable separation instead of running to the courts right away.  I think it would have given some of the extreme anti-gay leaders in the communion less of an excuse to undermine the Episcopal Church's leadership.  I think the split was in many ways a good thing.  It made those of us who remained in the Episcopal church freer to be true to ourselves and reach out to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, without worrying what the conservatives who were mad ever since the Philadelphia 11 were ordained thought.

Sometimes I think that churches are so afraid of losing members that they don't do the right thing.  I remember after the orange hemorrhoid stole the White House there was one guy who got all pissy because the rest of the church wouldn't fall down and worship said hemorrhoid.  The interim rector gave a sermon the following weekend that really got him mad.  He left the parish a short time later, which was for the best as far as i was concerned.  This was a guy who was on the band wagon about the hemorrhoid's bragging about assaulting women was all "locker room talk" and how Mrs. Clinton defended a rapist (all while leaving out that she had been appointed to the job by the court).  If he hadn't left I would have because I wasn't going to be in the same parish as that guy.  That's how much he pissed me off.

Edited by 47of74
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Posted
3 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

I'm with you. Splits are painful but they are sometimes for the best. I'm in the Presbyterian Church USA and while we didn't have a formal split, many of our more conservative congregations moved into the ECO (Evangelical Covenant Order of) Presbyterians a few years back. Our congregation's discussion about whether or not to move to ECO was absolutely brutal. The sleepless nights and tears kind of brutal. Those of us who are more progressive hung in there and in the end we lost our pastor (good riddance) and 1/3 of the congregation. As hard as it was to lose some of the "pillars" of the congregation I do think that, in the end, I'm glad it happened because now our congregation is more free to reach out to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

I’m not Presbyterian anymore but my mom is and I almost brought this up as well. 

She also lost the pastor at their church who no one really liked and always preached anti gay sermons, which she didn’t care for.  She’s since removed her decades long membership from that church too. 

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Posted

I was raised Methodist, and my husband and I recently began attending a Methodist church in our rather conservative area. We chose this church because the pastor is new to the church and is someone we knew through mutual acquaintances had similar social values as us and wouldn't be preaching hate and misogyny. I hope the church welcomes the split and decides to be inclusive. It's a small church with a large elderly population so that concerns me about what direction they may decide to go, but they have embraced the liberal pastor and his liberal sermons so I'm hopeful. 

It's a shame that it had to come to a split like this. 

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Posted (edited)

The best outcome would be for the whole UMC to become LGBTQ+ accepting and affirming. But we know that’s a pipe dream. So I guess this is second best. 

My children have gone to a preschool associated with a Methodist church that is LGBTQ+ accepting. I know where they will be in the split.

Edited by JermajestyDuggar
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Posted

I'm sad it had to come to this but glad it will allow my family, my awesome pastors, and my loving congregation to remain UMC. I'm sure some folks will leave, but .... better them than us. 

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Posted

From the perspective of a person in the LGBT community who has no ties to the UMC other than a boyfriend and his family from my early teen years and some casual acquaintances now, I appreciate that now I'll know which Methodists to trust.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, 47of74 said:

It made those of us who remained in the Episcopal church freer to be true to ourselves and reach out to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, without worrying what the conservatives who were mad ever since the Philadelphia 11 were ordained thought.

My parish had the honor of having the Rev. Betty Bone Schiess(one of the Philadelphia 11)as a guest homilist several years ago.

Edited by smittykins
correct spelling
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Posted (edited)

It's sad how some people love their ability to hate more than anything else.

This is probably for the best for the UMC -- I hope that it strengthens the UMC churches who support the LGBTQ community and are progressive in other ways. 

Edited by hoipolloi
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Posted

Pastor Adam Hamilton from UM Church of the Resurrection I. Overland Park Ks (metro KC, mega Church) in the split.  

I’m watching this because while I’m attending a church (non denominational) and serving a bit) this split, if any of the churches where I live remain etc could convince me to attend.

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Posted

This is making me very reflective about the big schism (SKIZZ’mm) within the Lutheran Church, gosh, 40 years ago. It was over proper interpretation of Scriptures, period. No social-Justice stuff to it. 

My folks, rest their blessed souls, were very attentive to it. I cared, too, but was already giving up my dream of having “church” mean anything more than the place to worship and receive the Sacraments and reassurance of eternal life.  Which of course is the first, second and third reason for church to exist — but anything social or friendship-building, eh, not so much. 

Give me a Church with an organ pitched to my alto-profundo and good hymns and I’m happy. Low bar. 

HOWEVER! — all the foregoing from my FJ sisters shakes my complacency. Can I bring any friend to church to hear the Gospel, and not see them blanch when the way they are is condemned as a sinful lifestyle choice?  I need to pay attention. 

Thank you all for caring. 

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Posted

I was disappointed to learn that the Lutheran church in my area is in the conservative LCMS(only men ordained, marriage = man + woman, abortion is murder, only members can receive Communion).

When my aunt remarried several years ago(at her combined Presbyterian/Methodist church), I swear the minister spent the first five minutes of the ceremony repeating “Marriage is between a man and a woman, man and a woman, man and a woman.” I wanted to yell, “OK, WE GET IT ALREADY!”

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Posted
I was disappointed to learn that the Lutheran church in my area is in the conservative LCMS(only men ordained, marriage = man + woman, abortion is murder, only members can receive Communion).
When my aunt remarried several years ago(at her combined Presbyterian/Methodist church), I swear the minister spent the first five minutes of the ceremony repeating “Marriage is between a man and a woman, man and a woman, man and a woman.” I wanted to yell, “OK, WE GET IT ALREADY!”


Yeah my cousin and his wife got married in one of the local LCMS churches and the pastor went out of his way to mention his beliefs on marriage in the ceremony. One of that cousin’s brothers is LGBT and I still don’t know how he kept quiet during all this. Some of the most extreme anti abortion or anti gay stuff in it community was produced by that church and not the Catholics as one would expect.

If not for a family member getting married or having a funeral I would not be caught dead in an LCMS church.
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Posted

I’m trying so hard to make a Dad joke about splitting “Methodists.” Something like, fine, we’ll be the Odists, y’all can be the Meths.

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Posted
8 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

 

HOWEVER! — all the foregoing from my FJ sisters shakes my complacency. Can I bring any friend to church to hear the Gospel, and not see them blanch when the way they are is condemned as a sinful lifestyle choice?  I need to pay attention. 

Thank you all for caring. 

When I realized I could bring literally anyone to what is now my church and they'd be welcomed, that's when I knew it was where I wanted to be. 

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Posted

This would not be the first time that there has been schism within Methodism .  https://www.patheos.com/library/methodist/historical-development/schisms-sects  What I find to be remarkable though is that the conservatives will be allowed to take their church property with them , and form a new denomination .  I mean there already are more so hardline Holiness sects , such as the kind I came out of , that arose from Methodism in America .  his would not be the first time that there has been schism within Methodism .  https://www.patheos.com/library/methodist/historical-development/schisms-sects  What I find to be remarkable though is that the conservatives will be allowed to take their church property with them , and form a new denomination .  I mean there already are more so hardline Holiness sects , such as the kind I came out of , that arose from Methodism in America .  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_holiness_movement#History   I am sure that they'd love to absorb such malcontents into their own congregations  .    Plus , on a similar note , the Church of the Nazarene a few years ago held a vote on whether or not to affirm the LGBT community , amazingly enough .  Unfortunately , for Nazarene Ally  https://nazareneally.wordpress.com/welcome/about/ , the church voted to reiterate its opposition to homosexual relations .  http://www.danboone.me/reflections-2017-general-assembly-church-nazarene/   I cannot imagine the Nazarenes permitting congregations that might want to become open to accepting LGBT members to split off into a splinter denominational body .  

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Posted

The news coverage makes bit sound like a done deal, but it isn't. At this point, the Protocol of Reconciliation & Grace Through Separation is just a proposal that will need to be voted on at General Conference in May. If it happens, it won't cause a schism as much as it will reflect division that has already taken places in some ways. The UMC Lear Ed from watching bother denominations, and most folks seem to agree that we need to provide a way for any split to be done with love rather than rancor. 

I go to a very conservative congregation in the denomination because I live in a very conservative rural area that doesn't offer much choice of church. This morning I was happy to hear the pastor say that homosexuality was no more a sin than gossip is and that we will never turn anyone away. 

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Posted

There are 11 different proposals currently at play toward the General Conference. (although really 9 of them are being seriously considered)

It isn't as simple as a "split", but also a question of how to do so. 

What many would still find as the ideal is for the US to be given a conference where it can change language in the Book of Discipline to that of inclusion for US churches, as many churches worldwide cannot due to the laws in the respective countries.   Many of the churches in Africa are why the language change for the worldwide denomination failed in 2019.  It's become an issue of not just inclusion of people of LGBTQ, but also of culture/color.  For example, there is a Tongan UMC in my area that would culturally lean more conservative/traditional largely based on the law in their country of origin of many of the members.

Many of these churches are funded by the progressive US churches; there are a few "traditional" or "conservative" congregations in the US, but even a large portion of those are cultural based (i.e. the Tongan UMC I just mentioned).

If the larger progressive+centrist US coalition keeps the organization, property and name of the UMC, then the problem is the rest of the world - which did not approve the doctrinal change before.  It would make so much more sense, imho, to allow a special dispensation for the US church to organize in a way that we change our Book of Discipline rules regarding clergy, weddings, and LGBTQ.  The US having it's own Central Conference, separate from the worldwide General Conference passed initially in 2008, but then was found to be unconstitutional later on.

So it's also a question of:  how do we make room for LGBTQ and at the same time avoid racism.

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Posted

@Marmion - there's also the Free Methodist Church.  it split from what was then the United Methodist Episcopal Church just before the civil war.  They will tell you today the Free refers to not selling/rent seats (pews etc) for people to sit in but it was also anti-slavery.  I went to/belong to a Free Methodist church for a number of years.  

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Posted
4 hours ago, clueliss said:

@Marmion - there's also the Free Methodist Church.  it split from what was then the United Methodist Episcopal Church just before the civil war.  They will tell you today the Free refers to not selling/rent seats (pews etc) for people to sit in but it was also anti-slavery.  I went to/belong to a Free Methodist church for a number of years.  

Yes , I have known this .  And also , it was mentioned in one of the links I provided in my prior post  .  

Quote

 The Wesleyan Church of America, founded in 1843, and the Free Methodist Church, established in 1860, both rejected slavery and worked for abolition. They separated from the larger Methodist community over these issues and others, including a willingness to ordain women

https://www.patheos.com/library/methodist/historical-development/schisms-sects 

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  • 1 year later...
Posted

An update on the split. 

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Conservative leaders within the United Methodist Church unveiled plans Monday to form a new denomination, the Global Methodist Church, with a doctrine that does not recognize same-sex marriage. 

The move could hasten the long-expected breakup of the UMC over differing approaches to LGBTQ inclusion. For now, the UMC is the largest mainline Protestant church in the U.S. and second only to the Southern Baptist Convention, an evangelical denomination, among all U.S. Protestant churches.

Due to the coronavirus pandemic, the UMC’s General Conference — at which the schism would be debated — has been postponed for two consecutive years, and is now scheduled to take place in Minneapolis starting in late August of 2022.

The Rev. Keith Boyette, a Methodist elder from Virginia who chairs the Global Methodist initiative, said he and his allies do not want to wait that long to formally leave the UMC. They have asked that the topic of schism be added to the tightly limited agenda of a special one-day General Conference to be conducted online May 8.

 

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  • 1 year later...
Posted

A further update since the Episcopal Church is evaluating how to proceed. 

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The timeline for a full communion partnership between The Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church remains on hold as the latter has postponed its quadrennial General Conference until 2024, when it will consider a vote to split the 12.9 million-member denomination over disagreements on the full inclusion of LGBTQ+ members.

That vote was to take place in 2020, but due to the COVID-19 pandemic it was postponed first to 2021 and then to 2022. It’s now been rescheduled a third time due to ongoing virus concerns and visa delays for its members traveling from some 130 countries outside the United States.

In the meantime, the General Convention Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Relations recently discussed Resolution A093, which commends the ongoing work of The Episcopal Church-United Methodist Dialogue and its proposal for full communion.

During the legislative hearing, the Rev. Rowan Larson, curate for formation and mission at Grace Church in Newton, Massachusetts, asked committee members to recommend that The Episcopal Church not move forward with any proposal until the United Methodist Church addresses its current ban on LGBTQ+ clergy and the marriage of same-sex couples.

Yeah I was wondering if anything ever came of that because I hadn't heard much of the split over the past years.  It's not surprising to hear that any split with the Methodists is still about two years off.  I still think a split is for the best if the conservative wing of the church is still hell bent on not being accepting of LGBTQ+.  I do wonder if the delay will affect the dynamics of the split - if the heat goes out of the movement and there aren't as many people or churches leaving.

As I said when I first heard of this, I think it's better if they take care of all the logistics and settlements ahead of time and realize that sometimes its better to let conservatives go instead of trying to hold on to them at all costs - allow them to do their own thing. 

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  • 8 months later...
Posted

Another update

Quote

The United Methodist Church moved toward becoming more progressive and LGBTQ-affirming during U.S. regional meetings this month that included the election of its second openly gay bishop. Conservatives say the developments will only accelerate their exit from one of the nation’s largest Protestant denominations.

Each of the UMC's five U.S. jurisdictions — meeting separately in early November — approved similarly worded measures aspiring to a future of church where “LGBTQIA+ people will be protected, affirmed, and empowered.”

They also passed non-binding measures asking anyone to withdraw from leadership roles if they're planning to leave the denomination soon — a category that almost entirely includes conservatives moving toward the exits.

The denomination still officially bans same-sex marriage and the ordination of any “self-avowed, practicing homosexual,” and only a legislative gathering called the General Conference can change that.

Looks like the UMC is moving in the right direction.  The proposed amicable separation plan proposed in 2020 didn't happen because of the pandemic but it looks like most conservative parishes are heading for the doors now.

Posted

I live in a very conservative small town to care for my aging father-in-law. We attend the UMC in town because it is the church where my husband grew up and it's the only church my father-in-law has ever belonged to. It has a small congregation, and I'm sure everyone but me will want to leave the UMC.

I'm on the church board,  and people are concerned about the cost of disaffiliating, just as they are concerned about being part of a denomination that stands for things most of them don't believe in (their words, not mine). No matter what direction we go, people will be hurting.

At our last meeting I pointed out that no matter where we end up, it will have no impact on the way we live out our Christian faith every day. We will still worship, we will still pray,  we will still serve the community and those who need help, etc. I hope that set some hearts at ease. 

One of the newly elected bishops was the pastor of one our former churches. He is more progressive than I am, but I like him very much and he will be a good leader, especially in the area where he has been appointed. 

The UMW (United  Methodist Women) got ahead of the game. They changed their name to United Women in Faith and changed their membership guidelines a bit so all the UMW groups will still be able to be members no matter which way their congregation goes.

 

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