Rusty Thomas' Daughter Dies

[Terrie]

We should be able to take part of @Jimbo's liver or his bone marrow. After all, it grows back (in less than 9 months) and there are people on the transplant list who need it.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

6 hours ago, Jimbo said:

But you'd deny them the right to make those decisions

@Jimbo, I'm not convinced you aren't a troll (lust-fueled orgies? Seriously?) but in case you're not, let me spell it out for you. Many of the people on this board think that alternative cancer treatments are ill-advised, but nobody was suggesting that their decision should be illegal. We weren't going to drive down to Tijuana to scream at a sick teenager and his family on the way into the clinic. In fact, most everyone here expressed sympathy and understood why someone in a stressful situation might make that decision, even if it's one we don't agree with. Maybe that's how you would react to something you disagree with, but it doesn't mean everyone thinks that way.

And I'd really love to know more details about how you and your political ilk are promoting free clinics and homes for those that don't have them. Part of the reason we're having this discussion is that Rusty was using his son's illness as an opportunity to rail against Medicaid-- you know, the program that makes it possible for millions of families living in poverty to access basic medical care.

 

Edited May 12, 2018 by NachosFlandersStyle

[Carol]

Jimbo,

I sometimes, still, refer to my mom as the "Queen of Right-to-Life".  She was a friend of Phyllis Schlafely and they wrote part of the republican platform on abortion when she was a delegate at the republication national convention many years ago.  She gave lots of money and time to Right-to-Life because, IMO, she thought women who had sex outside of marriage should be punished for it by carrying their child to term.  I grew up steeped in the pro-life movement and for many years felt exactly as you did.  I was sure abortion was murder because of the culture in which I was raised.

Fast forward many years later.  I began seeing this movement for what it was.  It was about getting babies born under any circumstance.  Rape, incest, condition of the mother...it was always murder.  Unfortunately, I rarely saw the concern for life follow after the baby's birth. My own mother was a good example of this but so were many of her cronies.  Mothers were on their own after they gave birth. 

I now refer to people involved in RTL/Birthright/Rachel's Vineyard as pro-birthers.  They don't understand that right to life means right to life for everyone, including the mother.  Her feelings are discarded in their belief that every fetus is a full human being at conception.  It isn't, anymore than an acorn is an oak tree.  Yes, it is the beginning of human life but it has no "life".  It doesn't have emotions, thoughts, feelings.  It doesn't eat, sleep, work, react to a world in which it lives.  It's cells that are forming a body, but it isn't a baby and I resent the whole pro-life communities representation that it is.

I don't like abortion and I don't know anyone who does.  But I can see it's use by women caught in a situation where they don't, for many reasons, feel capable of carrying a child to term.  We who are pro-choice are often referred to as hateful.  I see us as open minded men and women who have empathy because we are able to put ourselves in someone else's shoes.  I do not see the the Right-to-Life people having much empathy.  Their's is a black and white world, full of sin and villainy, largely believing in a god that is vengeful, pernicious and bullying.  Just the way man made him out to be. 

[Coconut Flan]

7 hours ago, Jimbo said:

You think by forcing everyone to support your sin, God won't judge you as harshly.   You're also mean spirited.  You enjoy forcing your evil on others.

Odd.  I don't think I've ever forced anyone to support me in anything.  I can't remember forcing evil on anyone either. 

But by all means, stay and spew some more venom.  It might provide entertainment.

[Briefly]

I am pro-life.  But it's still not up to me to decide for anybody else what they should do.  However, I do think that I should help people if/when/where I can - in any situation.  I'd like to be very clear on this:  Jimbo does not speak for me or anyone I know!  But he probably needs to go back under his bridge with the rest of the trolls.  He certainly comes across as one of the people who talk about it but then don't help people when they need it, such as Themanda spoke about.

[singsingsing]

7 hours ago, Jimbo said:

There are two supernatural beings at work in the world, influencing mankind - God and the devil.  God creates life and loves us.  The devil is a hateful, jealous liar, who uses mankind to get back at God.  Which do you think is telling parents it's ok to kill their babies?

Oh honey. There is one supernatural entity in the bible who ordered the massacre of children, who instructed Abraham to kill his own son, and whose entire religion is based upon the murder of his own son, and that entity is God, not the devil. 

[Queen Of Hearts]

Are we sure Jimbo isn't one of the trolls from the Anti-Naugler group?  They've proven they have no problem pranking us and stirring up trouble.  

For the record, I am pro-life (with reasonable exceptions where the health of the mother or baby is concerned) and yet Jimbo's post is so out there and does not align with how most of us rational pro-lifers really feel - hence the reason I think I smell a troll.  

[Black Aliss]

I am pro-life and pro-choice. I don't see how one can be pro-life any other way.  Ensure that every pregnant woman facing this difficult decision knows she will have a safe place to live, decent pre-natal care, and enough nutritious food to sustain her pregnancy, and drug rehabilitation if she needs it (most women who are addicted to drugs, when they learn that they are pregnant, want to get clean but the waiting list for facilities that accept medicaid patients, is typically 2-3 years). Ensure that her child, once born, can grow up in a safe home, cared for by her mother for her first few years, have enough to eat, get a decent education. Make sure that the mother has access to affordable, reliable contraception so she doesn't have another unplanned pregnancy. And then watch the abortion rate plummet in this country as it has in so many other countries where abortion is basically available on demand, where there is universal health care and a social safety net.

Women don't choose abortion just for the heck of it, just as a vanishingly small number of pregnancies are the result of lust-fueled orgies. Women overwhelmingly choose abortion because they see no other option. And, trust me, @Jimbo, your pregnancy crisis centers are not providing those options.

[Coconut Flan]

16 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Are we sure Jimbo isn't one of the trolls from the Anti-Naugler group?  They've proven they have no problem pranking us and stirring up trouble.  

I don't think he is.  He seems to be on his own mission. 

[Carol]

4 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

And I'd really love to know more details about how you and your political ilk are promoting free clinics and homes for those that don't have them. Part of the reason we're having this discussion is that Rusty was using his son's illness as an opportunity to rail against Medicaid-- you know, the program that makes it possible for millions of families living in poverty to access basic medical care.

 

I think the free clinics Jimbo is referring to are the crises pregnancy centers where they present as clinics that support a woman's right to choose.  Feel free to correct me, Jimbo.  

Where and how many homes for unwed mothers does the pro-life community support?   Where and how many adoption agencies does the pro-life community support?  Where and how many homes for abused women does the pro-life community support?  I'm sure there are some but how prevalent is this?  I'm guessing they are few and far between but I am curious to hear what you have to say.  

Specifically, what does the pro-life community do to support a mother after the birth of her child, and for how long a period of time?  Do you help with the practical day-to-day problems a single mother has after you've convinced her to have her child?  Do you provide decent food, clothes for mom and baby, diapers, strollers, new car seats, bus passes, a job, help pay for rent/utilities, well baby checks, parenting classes, baby care, birth control?  Once again, I am sure there are some who do but I'd venture to guess it's less than 5%. 

In terms of members of the pro-life community taking good care of their children...do you think this is common in the Quiverfull community?  Among fundamentalist biblical Christians?  There is so much evidence that these children suffer from physical, sexual and emotional abuse that I call bullshit on this one. 

I am seriously interested in hearing your responses to what I've asked.  These are valid questions that, if they're not already being addressed, should be.  You want to stop abortions?  Support the moms and babies.  Support birth control.  And, stop trying to force women to "pay" for their mistake.

My mom walked back and forth in front of Planned Parenthood every Saturday morning, often alone and always saying the rosary, rain or shine, four seasons a year.  It never did a damn bit of good when her money could have.  I love my mom but she really didn't get it...because she didn't want to.  She thought the answer was in prayer which was shown to be completely ineffective.  The answer is in care, empathy and legislation.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Carol

[Destiny]

11 hours ago, Jimbo said:

It is a unique human being, something known to science for over a hundred years.  It's NOT your body.  You're just providing a home for nine months.   You and your partner made the baby.  That was your choice.  And now the responsibility falls on you (not someone else) to take care of the baby or find someone who will.

What if my partner did not have my consent? What happens then? What if my partner beats me? What if they sabotaged my birth control? What if the foetus has a medical condition that's incompatible with life? What if having the baby will kill or severely injure me? What if I just plain don't want to be a mom, thanks?

11 hours ago, Jimbo said:

Pro-lifers take very good care of their own children AND other people's children.  We support homes for unwed mothers, adoption centers, free clinics, homes for battered women.  

Citations required. Assumes facts not in evidence. 

11 hours ago, Jimbo said:

Pro-lifers can't afford to fund your lust fueled orgies.  It only encourages you to be irresponsible.

LOL. No one asked you to pay for my orgies. I'm a grown adult. I can pay for my own!

11 hours ago, Jimbo said:

just as you try and force the rest of us to pay for your abortions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Amendment

I'm pro-choice, but I don't think that I personally would have an abortion. I've never been in the situation where it would come up personally, so I have no idea what I would do in reality, but that's what I think today. That said, that's what I think MY personal choice should be. It's not up to me to make that choice for someone else, because I've never walked in their shoes. Neither have you, so your best bet is to mind your own business.

Related: isn't there some verse in your bible about judging? 

 

[applejack]

11 hours ago, Jimbo said:

There are two supernatural beings at work in the world, influencing mankind - God and the devil.  God creates life and loves us.  The devil is a hateful, jealous liar, who uses mankind to get back at God.  Which do you think is telling parents it's ok to kill their babies?

If I buy your pamphlet will you fuck off?

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

 @Jimbo,

I am pro choice. I am a Christian. I have never been within earshot of a lust-fueled orgy to the best of my knowledge. (Well, there was that one time I could hear a couple in the next door hotel room, but I'm pretty sure it was just 2 people.  )

I have had only one unplanned pregnancy in my life, mainly because I used contraceptives. For many years of my life, those contraceptives were subsidized by the wonderful organization Planned Parenthood. I didn't see any pro life groups offering to help pay the $100 plus for my pelvic exam, pap smear, and diaphragm.

My first pregnancy, which as I mentioned was unplanned, was a shock and then a joy for me and for my wonderful husband. We had 5 days to get used to the idea and plan, and then I miscarried. I didn't see pro-lifers lining up to console me, or offering to pay for studies to research why so many pregnancies end in early miscarriages. If you truly believe that every fertilized egg is an independent human life, why are you not funding thousands of studies to stop all these miscarriages?

I also have not seen a huge movement of pro life groups trying to teach kids safe and truthful information about sex and contraception. I will be ensuring that my 2 kids will be knowledgeable, even if their schools teach that travesty of "abstinence only". 

In short, if you truly want to put an end to abortion, stop blocking real sex ed programs, stop blocking access to contraceptives, and stop trying to take away every single government program that supports parents with low or no income. Put your logic where you say your heart is, and we could probably greatly reduce the number of abortions. And the ones that were left would be none of your business any more than any of the current numbers are! 

Sincerely,

Me

(This is not so good for my blood pressure.  )

[Shadoewolf]

Back to Jeremiah, this is where I go in cases like Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans. They want to say they are his parents and it's their choice. But denying Jeremiah care this long could have signed the boy's death certificate way before reasonable medical care has a chance to work. The UK toddlers parents wanted to push too far. Parental "rights" need to not be absolute when sometimes parents aren't rational. That's where the US courts have guardian ad litem and why the hospitals in the UK fought for the babies rights. Ugh its frustrating!!

[Briefly]

12 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

For the record, I am pro-life (with reasonable exceptions where the health of the mother or baby is concerned) and yet Jimbo's post is so out there and does not align with how most of us rational pro-lifers really feel - hence the reason I think I smell a troll.  

Rational Pro-lifers.  I like that, it's accurate and I'm going to use that to describe my opinion because we pretty much seem to be on the same page.

11 hours ago, Destiny said:

I'm pro-choice, but I don't think that I personally would have an abortion. I've never been in the situation where it would come up personally, so I have no idea what I would do in reality, but that's what I think today. That said, that's what I think MY personal choice should be. It's not up to me to make that choice for someone else, because I've never walked in their shoes. Neither have you, so your best bet is to mind your own business.

Related: isn't there some verse in your bible about judging? 

 

Exactly.  And yes, the Bible does say not to be judgemental. But I don't think he wants to read those parts, it might disagree with his interpretation!

[Howl]

Or look to Colorado, where a free IUD program for teens led to this outcome.  From the Denver Post: 

Quote

Intrauterine devices — tiny, T-shaped pieces of plastic placed in the uterus — are the main reason Colorado’s teen birth rate fell 54 percent and the teen abortion rate declined 64 percent in the last eight years, state health officials said Thursday.

The astounding numbers, capturing the eight-year period since IUDs became an affordable option for low-income health clinics, were released along with a study estimating the state avoided paying nearly $70 million for labor and delivery, well-baby check-ups, food stamps and child-care assistance because of fewer births to teen moms.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Howl

[Carol]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

Or look to Colorado, where a free IUD program for teens led to this outcome.  From the Denver Post: 

IUD's are satanic to Right-To-Life members.  They refer to them as abortifacients because they don't allow a fertilized egg to implant in the uterine wall.  

Seriously, you'd think embryos this age are already making phone calls, dreaming about their future husbands/wives, planning their college choices.  

These people are completely irrational.   

[Briefly]

6 hours ago, Carol said:

IUD's are satanic to Right-To-Life members.  They refer to them as abortifacients because they don't allow a fertilized egg to implant in the uterine wall.  

Seriously, you'd think embryos this age are already making phone calls, dreaming about their future husbands/wives, planning their college choices.  

These people are completely irrational.   

Yes the are irrational!  But I have a question. I have heard that IUD's actually can cause a lot of problems, including infertility. But now I'm wondering if that is true, of if that was something put out by Right-to-Life, etc.

Only the male embryos are making college plans. The female ones are destined to only be wives & mothers.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Briefly

[Carol]

18 minutes ago, Briefly said:

Yes the are irrational!  But I have a question. I have heard that IUD's actually can cause a lot of problems, including infertility. But now I'm wondering if that is true, of if that was something put out by Right-to-Life, etc.

Only the male embryos are making college plans. The female ones are destined to only be wives & mothers.

I think there was some research on IUD's that supported decreased fertility for a period of time.  I don't know if that is true with the copper IUD's which seem to be safer.

Anecdotally, I have a friend who had her IUD removed because she was worried about her long term use.  She got pregnant immediately, miscarried after a few weeks and was pregnant again within a few months.  She carried that baby to term.

I am very careful about any information that comes from RTL.  I believe they still women have an increased risk of getting breast cancer after having an abortion.  As I understand this, it has been thoroughly researched and debunked.

[singsingsing]

IUDs are like any other medical device or medication. Yes, they can cause problems. They also have a lot of benefits. Like anything else, it's a decision for a woman to make with the help of her doctor as to whether the benefits outweigh any potential (usually pretty rare in the case of IUDs, from my understanding) risks.

[Themanda Duggar]

I am under the impression that there were some problems with IUDs in the past, but that the ones they use now are a lot better.

If I remember this correctly, you used to only be able to get an IUD if you’d given birth, but I know a lot of young women who use them now who have never given birth.  I think the design and technology involved has progressed significantly from the earlier versions.

[cindyluvs24]

JImbo must be angry at all of those harlots having great sex. Now punish them !

[JermajestyDuggar]

Thankfully there are lots of different choices for birth control. So if one doesn’t work for you, don’t give up! Just look into another option! I’m grateful we live in a time of multiple choices when it comes to birth control.

[Destiny]

43 minutes ago, cindyluvs24 said:

JImbo must be angry at all of those harlots having great sex. Now punish them !

Jimbo seems to want Gilead and and an OfJimbo of his own. YUCK!

[Ozlsn]

I have to admit I'm kind of relieved that the sudden increase in posts is in response to a troll. I always get a bit stressed when this thread reactivates.