Joy & Austin 30: Who Needs Fire Safety when You Have Jesus?

[Kelsey]

My stance on chiropractic care is to use it for conditions that it can help with. For example, after seeing my pcp and having a bunch of tests done (ct scan, labs, medication trial periods) and getting no relief from my headaches- my doctor referred me to a chiro. I had 1 visit......and haven't had a headache in a year. 

On the other hand, if you don't have an issue likely to be solved by chiro care......don't go see one.

Prior to my docs referral, i thought people only went to chiropractors when they were trying to scam auto insurance.

[FluffySnowball]

On 7/25/2020 at 6:23 AM, AussieKrissy said:

Chiropractors (as far as I know) seem to have a pretty good reputation in Australia (as a whole). I think most people I know use them in conjunction with modern medicine not instead of it. I do know of one Aussie is wack job Chiro, that was condemned (internationally) for a video showing him “adjusting” a baby. But as a whole, I do think Australians view them as a legitimate and not woo. I dunno other Aussie’s can correct me if I am wrong.... 

From my experience living in NZ, chiropractors are indeed seen as legitimate health consultants. People I know don’t go to either doctors or chiropractors, but to both. 

[Kailash]

I agree with seeing medical doctors and chiropractors. I have probably told this story before but when I was 22 I woke up one morning with my second toe swollen and purple. It hurt badly to walk on it and I left work to go to the Dr. The Dr. I saw diagnosed gout and gave me a script for narcotics. I did a little research when I got home and found out that gout is very unusual in young people and that it almost never happens in the second toe. So I went to a chiropractor. He took one look at it, and adjusted my foot/ankle and immediately the toe started returning to its natural color, and the pain faded. I had a pinched nerve and his adjustment corrected it. I’ve never had that particular problem again and I will use chiropractors when I think they can help me. 

[Pleiades_06]

40 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

From my experience living in NZ, chiropractors are indeed seen as legitimate health consultants. People I know don’t go to either doctors or chiropractors, but to both. 

That’s my experience in the Northeastern US too. 
In Northern Germany my experience has been people go to doctors and homeopaths. In fact, some doctors here specialize in homeopathy.

In both places, acupuncture and massage are recommended by doctors too.

I think there is space for all as long as people acknowledge medical science is important and don’t only rely on chiropractors and homeopaths for advice.

[nausicaa]

2 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I was going to dispute this (along the lines of "a profession is something you make money doing") but my tarot card today made me realize I shouldn't bother.

Carry on!

(I've never read for money, but it's in the back of my mind as an emergency option if I need a side hustle.)

I was using profession in the sense of an occupation requiring a lot of formal training with a goal to provide disinterested objective counsel, like lawyers or doctors. 

(For the record, I'm pretty ambivalent toward tarot card readers, since they don't represent themselves as health professionals and don't claim their readings are science-based.)

[FluffySnowball]

4 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

That’s my experience in the Northeastern US too. 
In Northern Germany my experience has been people go to doctors and homeopaths. In fact, some doctors here specialize in homeopathy.

In both places, acupuncture and massage are recommended by doctors too.

I think there is space for all as long as people acknowledge medical science is important and don’t only rely on chiropractors and homeopaths for advice.

That seems realistic TBH. There might be a place for both medicine and chiropractors. However, I cannot talk from experience as I’ve never been to a chiropractor and have no idea what such treatments actually entail. 
 

There’s one point I want to make (though keep in mind I haven’t really researched homeopathy): While possible positive effects of (medical) massages and acupuncture have been proven by scientific studies, homeopathy isn’t really proven to work - anecdotal evidence aside, of course. I personally never use it because I assume that if there’s a placebo effect, it wouldn’t set in in my case. My cousin, though, loves it (and she’s also into something we call Schüssler-Salze - Schüssler salts??? - in German) so I respect such alternatives as long as they aren’t dangerous and exploitative. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

3 hours ago, fundieundies said:

I don't want to sound like a leg humper but it's really sweet to watch Joy & Austin be so excited for the new baby. I get the feeling that out of all the Duggar marriages, theirs is most equal. I don't know if it started that way but from what we're seeing now I get a sense that both are involved in decisions.

I also think they are the most naturally suited to be a couple. While she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I don't think she's an empty head to be molded into what ever her husband wants, i.e. Jinger.   

[Not that josh's mom]

A chiropractor is required to have a 4 year undergraduate degree with emphasis in sciences. Then a degree in chiropractic medicine and a 2 -3 year internship. While I would not go to a chiropractor exclusively, I hate when my pcp just offers the choice of narcotic pain relievers, muscle relaxants or surgery. In that case. I'll certainly go to a chiropractor first.

[mpheels]

I think Joy and Austin are very well suited for each other, and seem to have genuine mutual respect. That respect is dependent on patriarchal structures and adherence to rigid gender roles, but they both seem happy with that. Hate the system, but can’t fault them for finding happiness within the confines. They seem to actually like each other and enjoy each other’s company. I do think their ease with each other is a result of knowing each other as friends for so long before they were romantic prospects. Of all the Duggar courtships, theirs was least contrived.

[Grace]

I would not use a chiropractor as my main Dr but I've definitely used them for pain relief before. Usually only a one time thing, maybe twice for a given ailment. I had a rib pop out of place once (did not even know that was possible) and I looked into going to my PCP and found out they were just going to give me pain meds. I went to the chiropractor and he popped that sucker right back in. Hurt like a mofo in the moment but no more pain after it was back ?‍♀️

I've also gone for acute pain to do with a pulled muscle and it made me able to function without the narcotics my Dr had given me until I could get into physical therapy for a long lasting fix. 

Some are definitely wackawoo but I think you can find one who works alongside western medicine instead of shunning it. 

[libgirl2]

46 minutes ago, mpheels said:

I think Joy and Austin are very well suited for each other, and seem to have genuine mutual respect. That respect is dependent on patriarchal structures and adherence to rigid gender roles, but they both seem happy with that. Hate the system, but can’t fault them for finding happiness within the confines. They seem to actually like each other and enjoy each other’s company. I do think their ease with each other is a result of knowing each other as friends for so long before they were romantic prospects. Of all the Duggar courtships, theirs was least contrived.

didn't it come out that she had a bit of a crush on him before they started courting? I agree, they suit each other. He is kind of rough and tumble and so is she. 

[Bobology]

It's kind of funny how some of us (I'm one) who believe Joy and Austin are well-suited for each other and seem very comfortable and as equal as can be in their culture, yet Austin was the one who, when thinking about marriage or his next stage of life, thought, "well, why not Joy?" as if trying to decide which vegetable to select in the buffet line. At least most of the other couples, except Josh/Anna and Josiah/Lauren, seemed to have romance on the brain early on. Josh/Anna and Josiah/Lauren seemed more like brokered deals.

[Dominionatrix]

Joy is ready to pop—and in pants! She’s still fundie as can be, but I’m glad she can wear what she finds comfortable. 

[CarrotCake]

She looks good! I think she looks more happy and healthy than when she was pregnant with Gideon. 

I hope for her that her delivery will also be better.

[Italiangirl]

I think looking back that with Gideon's pregnancy she a little bit scared and insecure, completely understandable give her age at the time and the fact that it was her first pregnancy, plus it was what 3 months that she was married to Austin? It was a lot of new situations to adjust to, this time she is more confident and relaxes, she already knows what to expect and what it will be even after the birth 

[nausicaa]

16 hours ago, Not that josh's mom said:

A chiropractor is required to have a 4 year undergraduate degree with emphasis in sciences. Then a degree in chiropractic medicine and a 2 -3 year internship. While I would not go to a chiropractor exclusively, I hate when my pcp just offers the choice of narcotic pain relievers, muscle relaxants or surgery. In that case. I'll certainly go to a chiropractor first.

In the U.S., chiropractic colleges do not require a bachelors to apply. It isn't common, but it is possible for a practicing chiropractor to have a total of three years of schooling. Physical therapists by contrast have a required seven years of schooling. 

While there is evidence that chiropractors may offer some help with limited back problems, it has been proven that spinal adjustments do not in any way impact other parts of one's health. Yet Palmer College of Chiropractic states "Improper function of the spine due to slight misalignments...can cause poor health or function, even in areas far removed from the spine and spinal cord itself." 

I don't know how rigorous these schools can be, since chiropractors can't even agree on the term "subluxation" or consistently identify a spine that has been treated versus one that hasn't. 

As I said before, they have unlimited chances to pass the boards (unlike medical doctors) and the boards are similar in difficulty to the MCATs doctors take to get into medical school in the first place. 

In regards to your frustrations with your pcp, I understand and wish medical doctors, and the U.S. in general, could focus more on preventative, non-invasive care for certain issues.

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

In the U.S., chiropractic colleges do not require a bachelors to apply. It isn't common, but it is possible for a practicing chiropractor to have a total of three years of schooling. Physical therapists by contrast have a required seven years of schooling. 

While there is evidence that chiropractors may offer some help with limited back problems, it has been proven that spinal adjustments do not in any way impact other parts of one's health. Yet Palmer College of Chiropractic states "Improper function of the spine due to slight misalignments...can cause poor health or function, even in areas far removed from the spine and spinal cord itself." 

I don't know how rigorous these schools can be, since chiropractors can't even agree on the term "subluxation" or consistently identify a spine that has been treated versus one that hasn't. 

As I said before, they have unlimited chances to pass the boards (unlike medical doctors) and the boards are similar in difficulty to the MCATs doctors take to get into medical school in the first place. 

In regards to your frustrations with your pcp, I understand and wish medical doctors, and the U.S. in general, could focus more on preventative, non-invasive care for certain issues.

 And basic nutrition. I don’t know that nutrition is even covered in US medical school programs.

Say what you will about Kaiser, but I think they have it right by putting the emphasis on health care maintenance and disease prevention.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

48 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

While there is evidence that chiropractors may offer some help with limited back problems

I have a family member who has seen a chiropractor for their back and was happy with the results, but this chiro focused a lot on the massage aspects which is proven to help with some types of pain.

This person is one of the smartest people I know and has a very high powered career in STEM (published in scientific journals, testified before congress on their science field.)  Just pointing that out to show it's not just SOTDRT fundies who seek out chiropractors. 

[purple_summer]

52 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Say what you will about Kaiser, but I think they have it right by putting the emphasis on health care maintenance and disease prevention.

I was a Kaiser kid. It’s all great until you need a specialist. 
 

I needed specialists. 

[Pleiades_06]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

n regards to your frustrations with your pcp, I understand and wish medical doctors, and the U.S. in general, could focus more on preventative, non-invasive care for certain issues

Totally agree with this. Maybe this is why some people turn to woo methods.

[lumpentheologie]

Joy just liked a pernicious anti-Fauci meme one of her friends posted. Sometime's it's easy to forget about their super-harmful politics when it's all babies all the time. 

[Idlewild]

Are those even bona fide quotes? Or is it like the one Jill Rodrigues posted about the Queen saying she thought of Trump as a son?? Mind you, Trump & Prince Andrew seem to be 2 of a kind! 

[llg1234]

From Reuters:

Quote

The first statement reads: “Just because thousands of independent doctors are saying that Hydrocyhloroquine [sic] cures all CV-19 patients, it is not valid until we have a major study done.” 

This statement aligns partially with a quote made by Fauci during an April 3 appearance on Fox and Friends. 

During the interview, Fauci said: “Although there is some suggestion with the study that was just mentioned by Dr Oz, granted that there is a suggestion that there is a benefit there, I think we have to be careful that we don’t make that majestic leap to assume that this is a knockout drug. We still need to do the kinds of studies that definitely prove whether any intervention, not just this one, any intervention is truly safe and effective.” 

The study Fauci referred to in the above quote was an online survey of doctors conducted by Sermo (www.sermo.com/about/), with the results released on April 2, 2020 ( here ).  

According to Sermo, 37% of COVID-19 treaters surveyed chose hydroxychloroquine from a list of 15 drug options as the “most effective” therapy against COVID-19. However, the respondents were not asked whether it “cures all CV-19” patients. 

The second statement in the social media post reads: “As soon as the CV-19 vaccine is manufactured it must be immediately delivered to health care professionals world wide for immediate human injection. Proper studies can be performed later.” 

While vaccine efforts are being fast-tracked, it is untrue that Fauci or the NIH said that a vaccine should be distributed and administered without proper testing. 

During his testimony before the Senate on May 12, Fauci mentioned “eight candidate COVID-19 vaccines in clinical development,” highlighting the NIH’s collaboration with the biotech company Moderna in particular. A video and transcript of his full testimony can be found www.c-span.org/video/?471837-1/white-house-coronavirus-task-force-members-testify-coronavirus-response-reopening-phases  , with his remarks on vaccine development starting at 28:10. Fauci says that Moderna’s vaccine candidate “would take about one year to 18 months if we were successful in developing a vaccine,” and that “we are now in Phase I clinical trial with the two doses already fully enrolled. […] The Phase I will directly go into Phase II-III in late spring and early summer. If we are successful, we hope to know that in the late fall and early winter.”   

According to Healthline’s explanation of clinical trial phases ( here ), Phase I of a clinical trial investigates for several months the effects of the treatment on “about 20 to 80 people who have no underlying health conditions.” Phase II “involves several hundred participants who are living with the condition that the new medication is meant to treat,” and Phase III “usually involves up to 3,000 participants who have the condition that the new medication is meant to treat.”  

It is true that traditional rules and timelines in vaccine production have changed amidst the global pandemic in 2020. A Reuters special report ( here ) found that: “Historically, just 6% of vaccine candidates end up making it to market, often after a years-long process that doesn’t draw big investments until testing shows a product is likely to work”.  

In his May 12 testimony, Fauci mentioned “the NIH has launched a public-private partnership called Accelerating COVID-19 Therapeutic Interventions and Vaccines (ACTIV). The purpose of that is to prioritize and accelerate clinical evaluation of therapeutic candidates with near-term potential.” ( visible at 29:39 www.c-span.org/video/?471837-1/white-house-coronavirus-task-force-members-testify-coronavirus-response-reopening-phases ) ACTIV aims to “develop a collaborative framework for prioritizing vaccine and drug candidates, streamlining clinical trials, coordinating regulatory processes and/or leveraging assets among all partners to rapidly respond to the COVID-19 and future pandemics” and “to identify, prioritize and facilitate the entry of some of the most promising candidates into clinical trials.” ( here  ). While the efforts aim to speed up research collaboration and the process of getting a vaccine ready for market, these guidelines do not appear to side-step safety and testing prior to a vaccine approval.   

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-fauci-assertions-hydroxychl/fact-check-assertions-attributed-to-dr-anthony-fauci-idUSKBN2322W0

Basically they're taking what he said out of context. Joy and Austin are involved with that right wing Freedomists group, so none of this is surprising. A quick Google of the first quote provided a fact check, so it's not like it's hard to find. They just don't want to, because it doesn't align with their pre-conceived notions. What's worse is, that lack of critical thinking is mostly likely going to passed on to Gideon, his sister, and any other future Forsyths. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by llg1234

[Idlewild]

@llg1234 thank you for that. I find it fascinating ( & terrifying) the hooks that certain fundies have attached themselves to. I knew a lot of them were against vaccines but the blind faith in hydroxychloroquine, refusal to tolerate masks or social distancing is just nuts. I’ve also noticed than sex trafficking seems to be a new obsession- many saying masks mean children can be trafficked more easily. I don’t know what solutions any of them are suggesting about trafficking but I expect it involves immigration policy & guns. 

[FluffySnowball]

Joy’s lack of interest in facts and truth (Fauci’s quotes don’t accurately show what he actually said - thanks, @llg1234 for doing the fact checking for us) is an annoying but useful reminder. We really shouldn’t allow ourselves to get drawn into the whole family and baby narrative. For me, at least, the political affiliations of Joy and her family became somewhat less apparent recently: there are no pro life rallies to attend or robocalls to make during a pandemic. So, I was aware of their right wing stance of course, but I didn’t really focus on it enough. Now they’re back in the foreground for me, which I appreciate. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by FluffySnowball