Jump to content
IGNORED

Joy & Austin 30: Who Needs Fire Safety when You Have Jesus?


HerNameIsBuffy

Recommended Posts

On 7/21/2020 at 9:34 PM, lezajenda said:

I think chiropractors and other "alternative" health care workers are increasing in popularity throughout America in general because they can offer preventative care and manage a variety of symptoms for an affordable price even if you don't have health insurance. The main stream healthcare system is so broken that even people with insurance can go broke from the bills.  And for the fundies, I think it's really easy for practitioners to run a small practice that caters to a niche population.  As a massage therapist I once worked for a chiro who got a solid 75% of his business from his church. Played Christian radio in the waiting room & kept regular & children's bibles with the magazines.  It must be much more comfortable for the fundies to visit a private practice like that for say, $40 per visit as opposed to a more traditional healthcare clinic where you risk encountering people who don't "share your values"  *eye roll*

The wholesome Christian chiropractors office is just like the wholesome Christian schools and camps and clothing stores and theme parks....it gives them a way to meet their needs without the hassle of encountering people who don't think like them.

That’s a good point about cost. I think the majority of people I know have been to one at some point or another. Good insurance covers them, Medicaid covers them and you can get cheap stand alone appointments if you don’t have insurance. Acupuncture too, for the same reasons. 
 

My 1st baby was a late flipper to breach. Had a Dr’s appointment a week before she was born, Dr said she was head down, I was good to go - but when I was in labor they were like Nope!  and had the c-section. I wish I’d known about the chiropractic turning method with my last baby who was stubbornly breach the whole way through and a scheduled c-section. The one v-bac I had was by far the easiest birth and recovery and I’d take that again any day. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

That’s a good point about cost. I think the majority of people I know have been to one at some point or another. Good insurance covers them, Medicaid covers them and you can get cheap stand alone appointments if you don’t have insurance. Acupuncture too, for the same reasons. 
 

My 1st baby was a late flipper to breach. Had a Dr’s appointment a week before she was born, Dr said she was head down, I was good to go - but when I was in labor they were like Nope!  and had the c-section. I wish I’d known about the chiropractic turning method with my last baby who was stubbornly breach the whole way through and a scheduled c-section. The one v-bac I had was by far the easiest birth and recovery and I’d take that again any day. 

I admit I'm heavily biased on this but after 10+yrs in "alternative" health and 5 in traditional before that I've seen so many horror stories of patients with botched surgeries and misdiagnoses bounced around from specialist to specialist racking up insane bills and still not finding any relief.  I don't know anything about the breech flipping procedure but if it were me I'd definitely consider it before surgery.  I think it's important to remember that in America healthcare is not a service we provide but a product that we sell.  Whatever your complaints, any specialist is trained to offer you a solution in their own discipline.  The internal medicine will recommend drugs, the surgeon will want to cut you open, the physical therapist will have exercises for you and so on down the line.  Some surgeons in particular have a way of selling their product as a cure all while glossing over just how invasive and risky the procedures/recovery can be and American patients tend to hear what they want to hear - a simple solution where they don't have to do anything or take any responsibility for their own health. I can't tell you how many people I've seen that signed up for a knee replacement or gastric bypass thinking surgery was the "easy" solution to their problem only to have the complications start piling up and spiraling out of control shortly after.

I know we like to criticize the fundies on this forum for eschewing health insurance and perhaps in the 80s-90s this was a very irresponsible way to manage your families health but now? Why pay $1200+ every month just to rack up co-pays and coinsurance costs for every issue when you could put that money into a fsa/HSA card that can be spent on chiro, massage, acupuncture or anything "traditional" should the natural disciplines fail to meet your needs.

Pardon the rant...it's just that on the issue of health insurance in the us the fundies increasingly have my support!

  • Upvote 2
  • Bless Your Heart 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, lezajenda said:

I admit I'm heavily biased on this but after 10+yrs in "alternative" health and 5 in traditional before that I've seen so many horror stories of patients with botched surgeries and misdiagnoses bounced around from specialist to specialist racking up insane bills and still not finding any relief.  I don't know anything about the breech flipping procedure but if it were me I'd definitely consider it before surgery.  I think it's important to remember that in America healthcare is not a service we provide but a product that we sell.  Whatever your complaints, any specialist is trained to offer you a solution in their own discipline.  The internal medicine will recommend drugs, the surgeon will want to cut you open, the physical therapist will have exercises for you and so on down the line.  Some surgeons in particular have a way of selling their product as a cure all while glossing over just how invasive and risky the procedures/recovery can be and American patients tend to hear what they want to hear - a simple solution where they don't have to do anything or take any responsibility for their own health. I can't tell you how many people I've seen that signed up for a knee replacement or gastric bypass thinking surgery was the "easy" solution to their problem only to have the complications start piling up and spiraling out of control shortly after.

I know we like to criticize the fundies on this forum for eschewing health insurance and perhaps in the 80s-90s this was a very irresponsible way to manage your families health but now? Why pay $1200+ every month just to rack up co-pays and coinsurance costs for every issue when you could put that money into a fsa/HSA card that can be spent on chiro, massage, acupuncture or anything "traditional" should the natural disciplines fail to meet your needs.

Pardon the rant...it's just that on the issue of health insurance in the us the fundies increasingly have my support!

I know we have a f***ed up healthcare system in the US - but I have to jump in that this is not the case in every healthcare system, many have set up systems so things like this don't happen and doctors aren't all so self-serving that they only recommend their own "solutions". And sometimes it can even go in the opposite direction where people can find it difficult to get a needed surgery because of this. I can name off the top of my head multiple people I know who were told NO by surgeons for things like back injuries or hip replacements because they required them to try PT or other methods first to make sure that it wouldn't help before going under the knife. 

Maybe this is a difference in for-profit vs. not-for-profit healthcare, I don't know. I have only had interaction with non-profit healthcare systems. Again, US healthcare/insurance is a mess and needs to be fixed, I just think it is dangerous to paint with such broad brushstrokes about people who provide our healthcare. Most are in it for the right reasons, but the loudest voices are generally the ones with bad experiences. They shouldn't be discounted, but also don't tell the whole story. 

  • Upvote 17
  • I Agree 3
  • Thank You 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, sadiZ said:

I know we have a f***ed up healthcare system in the US - but I have to jump in that this is not the case in every healthcare system, many have set up systems so things like this don't happen and doctors aren't all so self-serving that they only recommend their own "solutions". And sometimes it can even go in the opposite direction where people can find it difficult to get a needed surgery because of this. I can name off the top of my head multiple people I know who were told NO by surgeons for things like back injuries or hip replacements because they required them to try PT or other methods first to make sure that it wouldn't help before going under the knife. 

Maybe this is a difference in for-profit vs. not-for-profit healthcare, I don't know. I have only had interaction with non-profit healthcare systems. Again, US healthcare/insurance is a mess and needs to be fixed, I just think it is dangerous to paint with such broad brushstrokes about people who provide our healthcare. Most are in it for the right reasons, but the loudest voices are generally the ones with bad experiences. They shouldn't be discounted, but also don't tell the whole story. 

Oh most definitely. I didn't mean to paint the whole system with a broad brush and I should have noted that. To the contrary, the people you're describing are heroes and better than me for working to fix the broken system from within, and protect patients from being victims of it in the meantime, whereas I threw my hands up and left years ago.  I'm just biased and jaded from years of hearing horror stories.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/22/2020 at 10:43 AM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

My mom calls them quacks who kill you, I have no idea what she's on about that but we try to avoid mentioning the C word around her. ?  

A quick Google would show you what she's on about. 

Since there hasn't been any pushback on the anti-science comments in this thread, I decided to bring over my post from the Bates thread. These unscientific snake oil peddlers are dangerous and need to be called out almost as much as anti-vaxxers do. 

1. Chiropractic schooling is a joke compared to that of a legitimate medical school. One example: the biochem on tests like the MCAT and general university courses are much harder than the biochem chiros need to pass their final board exams.  You also get infinite attempts to pass the final board exam.

2. The field was founded in 1895 solely by a dude who openly believed in bunkum like magnetic healing and was anti-vax. He also claimed, on record, that he received chiropractic care from a deceased doctor and received some of his guiding chiropractic messages from other deceased doctors. (I suppose this took the place of any formal education, as he never attended medical school). 

3. A 2003 survey showed that up to 30% of Canadian chiropractors are anti-vax. Do you really have much faith in a medical field in which this many practitioners are ignorant of basic, proven medical concepts? https://www.jmptonline.org/article/S0161-4754(05)00111-9/fulltext

4. Chiropractors commit insurance fraud at an alarming rate that is exponentially higher than that of medical (i.e., real) doctors. 

5. The other thing chiropractor supporters need to ask themselves, if chiropractors are 100% legitimate, why is there such a distaste for them among doctors, medical researchers, and science-based people in general around the world? What do those groups have to gain from this resistance? Massage therapists are non-invasive and can be a bit hippy-dippy, but there's not a large group of researchers and professionals pushing to have them stripped of their certifications and discouraging adults from going to them. 

6. Not only can chiropractors not even agree on the definition of "subluxation," in studies, chiropractors could not come to a consensus when viewing x-rays of spines on which had undergone a subluxation and which hadn't. 

Edited by nausicaa
  • Upvote 21
  • I Agree 3
  • Thank You 3
  • Love 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2020 at 6:24 AM, lezajenda said:

 I don't know anything about the breech flipping procedure but if it were me I'd definitely consider it before surgery. 

Chiming in as someone who does know a bit about it.

Its known colloquially as an external version or ECV, but the medical term is external cephalic version.

It is agonising but so is surgery. The success rate really varies by doctor and you are monitored intensively before, during and after the procedure. It takes a few hours including the monitoring, and they relax your uterus with medicine in a drip so that it’s more likely to be successful. While it is happening you are well aware that the slightest change could mean an immediate c-section, though the risk of this happening is very small.

There are some studied linked here if you would like more info:

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/pregnancy-care-guidelines/part-j-clinical-assessments-in-late-pregnancy/fetal-presentation

  • Upvote 2
  • Thank You 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chiropractors (as far as I know) seem to have a pretty good reputation in Australia (as a whole). I think most people I know use them in conjunction with modern medicine not instead of it. I do know of one Aussie is wack job Chiro, that was condemned (internationally) for a video showing him “adjusting” a baby. But as a whole, I do think Australians view them as a legitimate and not woo. I dunno other Aussie’s can correct me if I am wrong.... 

  • Upvote 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

Chiropractors (as far as I know) seem to have a pretty good reputation in Australia (as a whole). I think most people I know use them in conjunction with modern medicine not instead of it. I do know of one Aussie is wack job Chiro, that was condemned (internationally) for a video showing him “adjusting” a baby. But as a whole, I do think Australians view them as a legitimate and not woo. I dunno other Aussie’s can correct me if I am wrong.... 

I would agree.  I suspect that our regulations are potentially better than in the USA for them.  I would consider them as an 'Allied Health' professional.  They also aren't allowed to advertise 'Woo' here.

  • Upvote 4
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Someone Out There said:

I would agree.  I suspect that our regulations are potentially better than in the USA for them.  I would consider them as an 'Allied Health' professional.  They also aren't allowed to advertise 'Woo' here.

That makes sense. Thanks I agree. They would get shot down by the public and the government for woo here. I didn’t think of that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, adidas said:

Chiming in as someone who does know a bit about it.

Its known colloquially as an external version or ECV, but the medical term is external cephalic version.

It is agonising but so is surgery. The success rate really varies by doctor and you are monitored intensively before, during and after the procedure. It takes a few hours including the monitoring, and they relax your uterus with medicine in a drip so that it’s more likely to be successful. While it is happening you are well aware that the slightest change could mean an immediate c-section, though the risk of this happening is very small.

There are some studied linked here if you would like more info:

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/pregnancy-care-guidelines/part-j-clinical-assessments-in-late-pregnancy/fetal-presentation

I had one, it didn't really hurt, but it also was not even close to successful. It was stressful but mostly because it was leading up to major surgery if not successful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, adidas said:

Chiming in as someone who does know a bit about it.

Its known colloquially as an external version or ECV, but the medical term is external cephalic version.

It is agonising but so is surgery. The success rate really varies by doctor and you are monitored intensively before, during and after the procedure. It takes a few hours including the monitoring, and they relax your uterus with medicine in a drip so that it’s more likely to be successful. While it is happening you are well aware that the slightest change could mean an immediate c-section, though the risk of this happening is very small.

There are some studied linked here if you would like more info:

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/pregnancy-care-guidelines/part-j-clinical-assessments-in-late-pregnancy/fetal-presentation

I had an ECV at 38 weeks.  It was not painful and it was successful.  It took about 15 to 20 minutes.  It was done at a teaching hospital by a doctor considered "the master" at this procedure.  I delivered my son naturally on his due date.

  • Upvote 7
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t know much about chiropractic, but I know enough. Sounds like woo to me. The founder certainly sounds like a wackadoo. 

  • Upvote 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've mentioned it before but I was doing the medical coding for a chiropractic department for a couple years. I hated it so much. There were so many issues with the insurance companies and trying to get clear guidance and instructions was impossible. Many insurance companies will only pay for adjustments when the patient has a diagnosis of "subluxation" but good luck understanding exactly how the "doctor" diagnoses this supposed subluxation. And if they didn't diagnose them with a subluxation during the visit and insurance denies it-well just throw it in there anyway! No re-evaluation or xray necessary! Just making an appointment with a chiropractor almost guarantees you that you will be diagnosed with a "subluxation". Low back pain? Lumbar subluxation. Neck pain? Cervical subluxation. Again- no xray or any other imagining study required! Our group was a mix of "doctors" coming to our organization from their own private practices and it was clear they were used to doing things however they wanted in order to get paid. I'm so glad I no longer have to code their stuff anymore. 

  • Upvote 10
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had a good experience with a chiro fixing my plantar fasciitis. Although I think it was more because she was also in sports medicine for some of the local teams - so had to be top of her game in everything. And it beat the surgery option. I also now wear orthotics in my running shoes (or if I'm going to be walking a long time - like to the zoo) and I'm pretty happy with that. 
She never adjusted my back though - she focused only on my heels. 

 

 

  • Upvote 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chiropractors aren't the spawn of Satan, like every profession there are good ones and bad ones. The people who only get medical advice from a Chiro weren't going to listen to a medical doctor anyway. The Chiro clinic my kids & DH go too also work in sports medicine. My daughter has a hump from shitty posture, it had gotten so bad it was causing chronic pain, the medical doctor wanted to load her up on narcotics & nerve blockers, she wanted none of that. She went to the Chiropractor & after 2 months her hump is almost gone, she has no more pain in her neck & upper back, a mix of adjustments and essentially PT & stretches and exercises have alleviated the problem. The chiro said, ice & ibuprofen for pain unless XYZ happens, if that happens she needs to see a medical doctor ASAP, because they aren't equipped for that type of care. That is a good chiro, they admit their limits & tell their patients they aren't medical doctors & they can only do so much, but they can work in conjunction with medical doctors to get the best possible outcome. 

  • Upvote 19
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: chiropractors.  I wouldn't go to one who was not recommended by a medical professional I trust.  Too many horror stories of the damage caused by or the
fraud committed by the bad ones.  Luckily, I've never had to go to one.

But there was once this guy who treated my step father.  Step dad had broken his spine a few years earlier and his recovery was considered to be a best case
outcome for that injury.  No paralysis, but his spine was fused in the lower back and he was off work for a year.  A couple of years after that, Dad had his back go
out.  He was on the floor and Mom wanted to call an ambulance, but Dad refused.  We got him up and he got in his recliner, but after a short time he decided that he needed to be seen by someone.  He still didn't want to go to the hospital because they were still paying off the bills from his earlier accident.  Someone had given him the name of a semi-retired chiropractor who only saw patients out of his home office when it was convenient.

Mom called the guy and he said he'd see my dad, but if he wasn't sure he could help, he'd call the ambulance himself and Dad could blame him.  Mom wanted
to go with Dad, but he insisted on going alone.  It took both of us to get him into his truck and mom called ahead to warn the doctor of what was about to come
his way.  Doc and his wife met Dad in the driveway and got him into the office.  Wife was a practicing nurse with training in massage therapy, and Dad was lucky
that she was home that day to help.

Dad said that the chiropractor talked to him before he did anything and offered to call an ambulance if Dad didn't want to continue.  This is where it gets really
sketchy.  Dad admitted that his insurance was maxed out for anything other than having to be fully admitted to hospital with back issues, and anything else
would have to be self-paid.  The doc said that he didn't go through insurance anymore because it was too much of a pain to deal with that, but he felt that he
could help.  He offered to have both of them draw from a deck of cards, and if Dad drew the higher card the visit would be free.  The deck was shuffled and
Dad drew the higher card.

Dad told the doc to at least try to get his pain level down but don't do anything fancy.  I think he was already regretting this whole course of action but the hospital bills were still bothering him.  Doc and wife got Dad out of his clothes and got him on a table.  They applied heat and tried to get him to relax by talking to him and trying to get him to think of calming things like laying on a beach on a hot day and stuff like that.  

Then the doc went to work.  Dad said that everything he did hurt like hell, but after a minute or two he started to feel better.  Dad was annoyed because after
each adjustment the doc would stop and tell him to wiggle his toes and pinch parts of his body to see if he could feel it.  More heat was applied and then the
wife took over and gave Dad a massage that felt good and bad at the same time.  One final go-over from the doc and dad was good to go.  He was given
instructions on heating pads and what to look out for if the treatment wasn't really taking hold.  Dad came home tired, but he felt so much better.

Dad visited the doc a few times over the years when he felt his back was acting up.  The doc always talked to Dad about what he'd been doing recently and
offered advice on how to do things differently to avoid having more problems.  Dad said that a lot of what he was told was the same things he'd been told to do
when undergoing PT after his initial hospitalization, but forgotten or ignored because he just wanted to get back to living the way he did before he broke his
back. 

I guess the chiro Dad saw was one of the good ones, or he just got lucky.  Still, I wouldn't see one for myself just because, and would never take a child to
one unless other doctors recommended it and even then I'd do research, get second opinions, etc.

Final note:  one of my kids has two young children and has joined a local Facebook group for parents in her area.  She says that there are often posts from parents wanting to know if there are any local doctors that will see kids who aren't vaccinated, or if there are any doctors who will give a medical exemption so their kids can go to school.  The only people who respond usually say "I'll PM you", but once in a while someone says to skip the pediatricians and family doctors, but call around to the chiropractors.

Edited by Flossie
Sorry about the formatting. It looks good when I upload it, and I've tried to edit it, but for me, the post doesn't have the line breaks right, and I can't fix it.
  • Upvote 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Chiropractors aren't the spawn of Satan, like every profession there are good ones and bad ones. The people who only get medical advice from a Chiro weren't going to listen to a medical doctor anyway. 

Quite the strawman you're attempting here. I didn't state that chiropractors are the spawn of Satan. Read my (researched and sourced) post again.

My point is they are not medical professionals. They do not have rigorous standards for certification and cannot even agree on the basic definitions of terms like "subluxation." The field was founded by a charlatan with supernatural beliefs similar to many religious sects so it doesn't deserve to be called a profession any more than tarot card reading does. 

Edited by nausicaa
  • Upvote 10
  • I Agree 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Nice strawman you're attempting here. I didn't state that chiropractors are the spawn of Satan. Read my (researched and sourced) post again.

My point is they are not medical professionals. They do not have rigorous standards for certification and cannot even agree on the basic definitions of terms like "subluxation." The field was founded by a charlatan with supernatural beliefs similar to many religious sects so it doesn't deserve to be called a profession any more than tarot card reading does. 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3yG3h7LLK9LYYwb3NbYLW6

How Chiropractic Started as a Ghost Religion - Beyond the Bastards podcast.

I go back and forth on Robert Evans because I find his personality irritating, but this was an interesting podcast on how Chiropractors started pretty far out there woo.  

On the topic of chiros has anyone seen those videos where they do gua sha "massage?"  They scrape the skin to "bring toxins to the surface" and the recipient ends up looking like they jumped out of a moving car and hit the pavement.  They say it doesn't hurt after but the bruising is horrific.  

 

  • Upvote 8
  • WTF 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems America allows this profession way more treatments than my country? And it seems the required training to get a real certification is neither necessary, supervised or controlled. Additionally, way more people seem to be willing to go that route instead of going to real doctors first (whatever the reason: money, bad experience, voodoo nutjob, conspiracy idiot or religious fanatic). 

  • Upvote 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/29/2020 at 4:32 AM, just_ordinary said:

It seems America allows this profession way more treatments than my country? And it seems the required training to get a real certification is neither necessary, supervised or controlled. Additionally, way more people seem to be willing to go that route instead of going to real doctors first (whatever the reason: money, bad experience, voodoo nutjob, conspiracy idiot or religious fanatic). 

Chiropractors have to have both training and be licensed.   

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/27/2020 at 1:41 PM, nausicaa said:

The field was founded by a charlatan with supernatural beliefs similar to many religious sects so it doesn't deserve to be called a profession any more than tarot card reading does. 

I was going to dispute this (along the lines of "a profession is something you make money doing") but my tarot card today made me realize I shouldn't bother.

Carry on!

(I've never read for money, but it's in the back of my mind as an emergency option if I need a side hustle.)

  • Upvote 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't want to sound like a leg humper but it's really sweet to watch Joy & Austin be so excited for the new baby. I get the feeling that out of all the Duggar marriages, theirs is most equal. I don't know if it started that way but from what we're seeing now I get a sense that both are involved in decisions.

  • Upvote 4
  • I Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Coconut Flan locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.