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Seewalds 43: Pants may Have Been Worn Or Not


HerNameIsBuffy

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33 minutes ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

So Boobchelle, were your children actually questioning their faith, or simply the Duggar way of life?

Since they deliberately shield their children from differing worldviews, I’d wager it was more of the latter...

I think you hit it right on the mark. I feel bad for them thinking they have to hold Duggar standards of crazy to still be a Christian. 

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Jessa also makes more sense bc there is just generally a lot more interest in the fundie daughters than in the sons. Their weddings and pregnancies draw more interest and more viewers. And yet they have theoretically leave the family and have less power when they marry. Except jessa. 

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54 minutes ago, Johannah said:

Jessa also makes more sense bc there is just generally a lot more interest in the fundie daughters than in the sons. Their weddings and pregnancies draw more interest and more viewers. And yet they have theoretically leave the family and have less power when they marry. Except jessa. 

True, plus who else is there? Josh ? No way. Jill? Even if she agreed (which is doubtful) she is pants wearing with a husband who publicly disses JB. Jana? Unable to gush about a godly marriage. John David? Not good at speaking and looks , well, not as polished as Jessa. Plate licking Joe? No. Joy? Doubt she’d be interested. Jinger? She’d be worried about the effect on her own brand and would probably want to be paid. Josiah? Doesn’t come across that well.

As things stand Jessa is the only one who hasn’t defied JB and can string a few words together so she gets the gig.

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You know, when you look at it like that, it's a bit of a surprise. Out of 9 adult children, only one has the potential to continue to represent your brand? Not exactly success, especially when you proclaim it's about 'ministry' and 'spreading god's word'. How do you claim it's successful when only one child of those 9 either can or will continue to follow your ways publicly? 

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Yeah but no one has officially bucked them either. Except josh. But now he claims to be repented and back to fundie ways. Jill is still pretty fundamentalist, too, just maybe not quiverful anymore. None of the kids have left the cult, denounced Christianity, become an atheist. Yet. 

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On 4/27/2020 at 9:13 PM, Bazinga said:

For those with curious minds, I ended up listening to this while I was making dinner. Nothing new at all. Maybe the only tidbit of information they gave that might be interesting is they said all of their older children questioned their faith in their teen years, with one child actually questioning a little later around 20. No names or hints. It was basically just a talking point saying that if a child professes his/her faith at a young age, doesn't mean they will keep it in later years. I guess I only found it interesting is that they said all of their older children struggled at one point. So there ya go. A whole lotta nothing.

And yes Jessa was very much on brand. And a whole lotta ass kissing towards her parents. 

The Bateses very recently posted about one of their tween daughters having recently questioned her faith. I know this is normal (especially when the faith they’re questioning is warped by a cult) but with this similar statement by the Duggars, I’m cynical enough to wonder if this a new ATI talking point. It reminds of the commercials that try to convince you that a problem you thought you’d solved actually needs a new solution. This way, godly families who think their kids are all saved can now be scared into thinking they need  back-up, aka ATI

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7 hours ago, Dominionatrix said:

The Bateses very recently posted about one of their tween daughters having recently questioned her faith. I know this is normal (especially when the faith they’re questioning is warped by a cult) but with this similar statement by the Duggars, I’m cynical enough to wonder if this a new ATI talking point. It reminds of the commercials that try to convince you that a problem you thought you’d solved actually needs a new solution. This way, godly families who think their kids are all saved can now be scared into thinking they need  back-up, aka ATI

I think you’re right - ATI has probably raised this as ‘talking points’ for their spokespeople. The benefit is two fold- first, as you say, it advertises ATI as a resource to help you and second it's a bit of propaganda- see, our children are not brainwashed bots, they are critical thinkers who questioned things but came back to believing our brand of ‘Christianity’. 

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10 hours ago, Johannah said:

Yeah but no one has officially bucked them either. Except josh. But now he claims to be repented and back to fundie ways. Jill is still pretty fundamentalist, too, just maybe not quiverful anymore. None of the kids have left the cult, denounced Christianity, become an atheist. Yet. 

Jill.has left the cult. While being still a fundamentalist, she's clearly out of her parents cult. The main points of Duggar's brand are being quiverful and homeschooling. But Jill has only 2 kids and is planning to put them at a public school. Maybe she can't have more kids, so having a little family is not a free-will decision, but public school is. She's not even choosing a Christian co-op (which would allow her free time, while still being *godly*), she is against IBLP.

I don't condone Derrick and Jill hateful beliefs. But JD and Michelle must be really hurt because I bet they wouldn't expect, in a million years, having grandkids in a public school.

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14 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Jill.has left the cult. While being still a fundamentalist, she's clearly out of her parents cult. The main points of Duggar's brand are being quiverful and homeschooling. But Jill has only 2 kids and is planning to put them at a public school. Maybe she can't have more kids, so having a little family is not a free-will decision, but public school is. She's not even choosing a Christian co-op (which would allow her free time, while still being *godly*), she is against IBLP.

I don't condone Derrick and Jill hateful beliefs. But JD and Michelle must be really hurt because I bet they wouldn't expect, in a million years, having grandkids in a public school.

I'm so, so curious to see what Jill will do once both kids are in school full time. I think this will be very telling as well.

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@Bazinga, especially if it's something that involves her going back to school for. Her volunteering or working part-time at a church pre-school might be passing for Duggar brand but graduating from community college and becoming a sinful working woman? That would be something. 

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On 5/1/2020 at 1:40 AM, Pecansforeveryone said:

@Bazinga, especially if it's something that involves her going back to school for. Her volunteering or working part-time at a church pre-school might be passing for Duggar brand but graduating from community college and becoming a sinful working woman? That would be something. 

I could see Jill going to college to be a nurse or midwife and possibly working even part-time once Derick has graduated from law school. I still don't agree with a lot their beliefs but I am happy that Jill and Derick are making some choices that will give their son's and any future children they have a chance. Choosing to send Izzy to school is a good decision that will benefit Jill as well as the children, she isn't stuck teaching children all day and if she wants to go to school or get a job or both, she has that option. If she doesn't then that is fine too. 

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For a long time, I have thought Jill was one of the more intellectually curious Duggars. My hope for her is that Izzy has good teachers, ones that will try to encourage Jill to help in the classroom, then inspire her to take some classes at the local community college. I have seen this happen in my school. We had a very sweet Mom at my school, one who did everything she could to help her two children. We had a couple of teachers who took this mom under their wings, and she had earned her GED, last I had heard. I have lost contact with her.

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On 4/30/2020 at 7:14 PM, Melissa1977 said:

Jill.has left the cult. While being still a fundamentalist, she's clearly out of her parents cult. The main points of Duggar's brand are being quiverful and homeschooling.

Is there a chart for what is considered fundamentalist VS conservative christian? I would have thought Jill fell under the latter, so now I am curious as to why she does not.

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Just now, MaryOrMartha said:

Is there a chart for what is considered fundamentalist VS conservative christian? I would have thought Jill fell under the latter, so now I am curious as to why she does not.

My understanding is that fundementalists believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible.  Conservative Christians believe the Bible is true in meaning, but understand the use of parables and metaphors, etc.

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2 hours ago, MaryOrMartha said:

Is there a chart for what is considered fundamentalist VS conservative christian? I would have thought Jill fell under the latter, so now I am curious as to why she does not.

Nope.  There isn't much of a consensus on a definition of "conservative Christian"  either.  Either here on FJ or elsewhere.  Do you mean in political or religious terms?  Within Christian Protestantism only?  The far right wing "Christians" in American politics, which includes some Catholics? 

I think @Melissa1977, is correct.  Jill is moving away from her parents' extreme  cult that is all.  Gothardism (the Duggar parental unit's cult) is a subset of the Biblical Christian Patriarchal Movement, which is a subset of extreme Christian Fundamentalism.  Some extreme Christian Fundies are Quiverfull but not all.  And not even all Gothardites are or were Quiverfull.

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

My understanding is that fundementalists believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible.  Conservative  Evangelical Christians believe the Bible is true in meaning, but understand the use of parables and metaphors, etc.

Minor quibble and modification there because of the political implications of "conservative" I mentioned about.  But, yes, Evangelicals can believe that the Bible is inerrant without having to take everything in it as literal truth.   And they are also not as keen on being "separate." 

And our most rigorous and extreme Christian Fundamentalists would not regard an average Evangelical as a true "Christian" half the time.

This reminds me of the time I tried to make a chart for FJ to try to make sense of all of this.  It turned into a giant complicated Venn diagram with lots of overlapping circles.  And no-one could agree where the boundaries were!   I gave up in despair, ripped it to shreds, and may have shed a tear or two.  :)

For anyone interested, this is John Green (author of Religion and the Culture Wars") on the subtle differences between Fundamentalist and your average "Christian" whether conservative politically or not.   He makes a lot of sense, IMO.

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The differences between fundamentalism and evangelicalism are a bit subtle, and oftentimes difficult to understand from the outside. A lot of it is a style. Fundamentalists tend to be very strict. They tend towards intolerance. Notice, I said, "tend towards intolerance." Many of them are not intolerant. But they tend towards that direction. They tend to be very judgmental. They tend to want to require an awful lot of individuals who would join their communion. And they tend to be very, very critical of other Christians -- even other evangelical Christians -- who don't share their very strict approach to religion.

But there are some other things besides style that differentiate fundamentalists from evangelicals. … Evangelicals and fundamentalists both agree that the Bible is inerrant, but fundamentalists tend to read the Bible literally.

Many evangelicals don't actually read it literally. They're willing to understand that there's metaphor and poetry in the Bible, and it's just that the truth expressed in that metaphor and poetry is without error; whereas fundamentalists would tend to want to read even the metaphor and the poetry literally. That's a particular way to interpret the Bible.

Likewise, many fundamentalists would see conversion as a sudden event -- something where you could actually pick the date and the time when one accepted Jesus; whereas many evangelicals might have a broader understanding of conversion, something that might take place over a longer period of time, and in fact might not even really be understood until long after it happened. Someone might look back and say, "Yes, it was at that particular time that this transformation occurred in my life."

Also, when it comes to the question of who Jesus was, fundamentalists tend to have a fairly narrow, specific, very strict view of who Jesus was. Evangelicals have a somewhat broader interpretation of who Jesus was.

Fundamentalists also add some additional doctrines to their beliefs that many evangelicals would not agree with. For instance, many fundamentalists have a dispensational view of the Bible. That is to say, they have a particular understanding of sacred time, where the activity of God and history is divided up into particular eras. Different things happen in the different eras or different dispensations.

Depending on which fundamentalist you talk to, we're either at the end of the sixth dispensation or the beginning of the seventh dispensation. This, of course, will eventually lead to the return of Jesus to Earth and the end of human history as we know it. Many evangelicals would not accept dispensationalism. They might-- They do take the return of Jesus very seriously. They do take sacred time very seriously, but would not necessarily buy into a dispensational approach.

Another difference between fundamentalists and evangelicals is the degree of separatism that they practice. Both fundamentalists and evangelicals believe that conservative Christians should separate themselves from the world in many important ways. But fundamentalists are much stricter in that separation, and they would extend it to religion as well.

Many fundamentalists don't want to associate even with other Christians who don't agree with them. They want to separate themselves from people that have fairly similar values. Oftentimes, fundamentalists will even want to separate themselves from people who refuse to separate themselves from people who they don't agree with. Of course, this can be extended a long way.

Evangelicals are not as separatist. They are perfectly willing to cooperate with people of other religious faiths, with whom they don't agree on all of the particulars, for the greater cause of evangelizing and bringing people to Christ. So evangelicals, for instance, will often talk about making common cause with Roman Catholics or with mainline Protestants. Fundamentalists are very reluctant to do that, because they see it as being wrong to associate in religious terms with people with whom they don't have complete agreement. So those differences are sometimes subtle. But in style, belief, and practice, fundamentalists really are different from evangelicals.

Can you talk about and compare how the evangelicals versus the fundamentalists got their ideas out there, and began appealing to the mainstream of America?

The evangelical Protestant tradition contained a lot of fundamentalists. The term "fundamentalism" was first used widely early in the 20th century. The name comes from a series of pamphlets that were published by evangelicals, theologians, that detailed certain fundamental beliefs that they regarded as non-negotiable.

Many evangelicals today by the way would agree with many of those fundamentals. But the strict separatism, the special doctrines and the harsh style of fundamentalists often turned out to be unproductive when it came to the mission of the church, and when it came to politics as well.

So all throughout the 20th century, there's actually been many people who wanted to drift away from fundamentalism and, in some cases, wanted to actually have a break with fundamentalism; not to reject the fundamental beliefs of evangelical Christianity, but to have a more effective style in social and religious matters.

In fact, the founding of the National Association of Evangelicals in the late 1940s was one example of that moving away from strict fundamentalism. We've seen a lot of that since. In the 1990s, for instance, there was a real effort on the part of the National Association of Evangelicals and many other evangelicals to move away from some of the aspects of fundamentalism which were problematic.

These are individuals who, both at a religious level and in their social and political life, wanted to make common cause with a broader group of individuals in the United States, and wanted to find allies. They wanted to work with other people who agreed with them on many important issues, but maybe not on everything. They found that a more tolerant, open and inclusive style was much, much more effective.

So there has been a move away from strict fundamentalism. In fact, if you look at surveys today, there are actually relatively few people who identify themselves as fundamentalists. If you look at measures of fundamentalist doctrine, those measures have become somewhat less common.

A good example is separatism. In recent surveys, my colleagues and I asked evangelical Protestants, broadly defined, the following question: "Christians should separate themselves from the world to avoid evil." Relatively few evangelicals in the survey agreed with that statement, including some who called themselves fundamentalists.

So there really has been a movement away from fundamentalism, properly so called. Now, oftentimes, the word fundamentalist is used to mean other things. It's used to mean intolerant, because some fundamentalists really did have those intolerant tendencies. So oftentimes, in popular discourse, we'll refer to an intolerant person as a fundamentalist, as sort of a code word for certain aspects of religion that that people don't like.

Sometimes it's also used to refer simply to having an orthodox Christian position. So we'll often say, "Well, that person takes the Bible seriously. They must be a fundamentalist," when in fact they may not be a fundamentalist at all. They may be simply a person that takes the Bible seriously, but doesn't have the other attributes of fundamentalists.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/evangelicals/vs.html

 

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On 5/3/2020 at 12:16 PM, MaryOrMartha said:

Is there a chart for what is considered fundamentalist VS conservative christian? I would have thought Jill fell under the latter, so now I am curious as to why she does not.

I don't know if there is a formal distinction what I consider fundy vs mainstream conservative is mainstream conservatives, are more willing to hear things they don't agree with, are more willing to allow women to have autonomy, in many conservative christian homes the wives/moms have jobs, they are strong believers in education & there is more to life than God. 

I personally think Derrick & Jill are fundy lite working towards mainstream conservative  Christianity. I think D was raised mainstream conservative and veered off into fundydum after his father died & his mom got sick and is now dragging Jill into mainstream life with him. Jill has made great strides in the 6 years she's been married, she's almost completely thrown off the shackles of her parents cult and is working on how to be a "normal" person Her whole life was lived inside a very small very controlled box and now she's out there forging her own path, but still relying heavily on Derrick & Cathy to guide her. I think once Sam is in school we will see some HUGE changes in her, I can see her going back to school, I can see her getting an LPN and eventually her RN & becoming a L&D nurse I think she would love it and I think with REAL training she would be good at it.  She's well & truly free of the cult yes she still has some of the same hateful beliefs but those can still change as she spends more time in the world. Of all the marrieds she's the only one that seems to have any hope of this, so far. 

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On 5/3/2020 at 1:22 PM, Palimpsest said:

For anyone interested, this is John Green (author of Religion and the Culture Wars") on the subtle differences between Fundamentalist and your average "Christian" whether conservative politically or not.   He makes a lot of sense, IMO.

Man, he didn't mention any of that in The Fault In Our Stars!

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On 5/5/2020 at 4:09 PM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I don't know if there is a formal distinction what I consider fundy vs mainstream conservative is mainstream conservatives, are more willing to hear things they don't agree with, are more willing to allow women to have autonomy, in many conservative christian homes the wives/moms have jobs, they are strong believers in education & there is more to life than God. 

I personally think Derrick & Jill are fundy lite working towards mainstream conservative  Christianity. I think D was raised mainstream conservative and veered off into fundydum after his father died & his mom got sick and is now dragging Jill into mainstream life with him. Jill has made great strides in the 6 years she's been married, she's almost completely thrown off the shackles of her parents cult and is working on how to be a "normal" person Her whole life was lived inside a very small very controlled box and now she's out there forging her own path, but still relying heavily on Derrick & Cathy to guide her. I think once Sam is in school we will see some HUGE changes in her, I can see her going back to school, I can see her getting an LPN and eventually her RN & becoming a L&D nurse I think she would love it and I think with REAL training she would be good at it.  She's well & truly free of the cult yes she still has some of the same hateful beliefs but those can still change as she spends more time in the world. Of all the marrieds she's the only one that seems to have any hope of this, so far. 

If she were a nurse, how would she handle someone whose lifestyle she disagreed with? The teen mom? The single mom? The lesbian couple? I’m just not sure. 

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2 hours ago, princessmahina said:

If she were a nurse, how would she handle someone whose lifestyle she disagreed with? The teen mom? The single mom? The lesbian couple? I’m just not sure. 

Or A termination? Tubal ligation, vasectomy? Sex change? 

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I don't want to be Debbie Downer. But tbh I would be surprised seeing Jill as an RN. Maybe it's different in Canada but here to get your RN you now need a bachelor's degree either a BN or BSN said bachelors degree includes all your science courses (Chem, bio, bio Chem, anatomy physiology etc) and the nursing specific ones (pharmacology etc). 

I think Jill would be a great nurse or a great midwife and likely thrive when it came to certain practical skills and patient care. But I don't think that SOTDRT has at all prepared her for a 4 year degree or the study skills etc that would go along with it. I could maybe see her doing well with a 2 year LPN program but even that would be a mountain. 

 

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2 hours ago, LacyMay said:

I don't want to be Debbie Downer. But tbh I would be surprised seeing Jill as an RN. Maybe it's different in Canada but here to get your RN you now need a bachelor's degree either a BN or BSN said bachelors degree includes all your science courses (Chem, bio, bio Chem, anatomy physiology etc) and the nursing specific ones (pharmacology etc). 

I think Jill would be a great nurse or a great midwife and likely thrive when it came to certain practical skills and patient care. But I don't think that SOTDRT has at all prepared her for a 4 year degree or the study skills etc that would go along with it. I could maybe see her doing well with a 2 year LPN program but even that would be a mountain. 

 

I think she could get there educationally- she’s not unintelligent - but it will take a long time. All her studies have either been bible centred ( didn’t Derick say she’d done some sort of bible college thing?) or the online midwife assistant thing where she seemed to turn up to random births when it suited her. Purely based on her social media she struggles with Derick studying. I’m a lawyer and I know you have to be totally in the zone when doing your finals and it’s tough on the rest of the family.Jill was brought up on Duggar time where her father worked for himself and the family took time off whenever they wanted to do something- like a trip or whatever. I think she’d find it hard to fit in with a schedule of study and then turning up to work- it’s not how she was raised. I hope she can develop beyond this but she’s going to need to open her mind and adjust her boundaries and that takes  lot when you end had a toxic upbringing like hers.

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I think once both boys are in school she could pull it off. Especially if Derick is motivating and encouraging her, and has he studying experience to coach her through it. There’s a community college in northwest Arkansas not far from where she lives. They offer an associate’s degree in 4 semesters that leads to licensure as an RN. No bachelor’s degree required. Sam will be eligible for kindergarten in just 2 years. 

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Nursing programs, including ADN programs, are highly competitive and most have long waiting lists. Unless her name would secure Jill a spot, it could take a decade of testing and waiting. Also, if it’s still possible, they’ll probably have more kids once DD has graduated and is earning a living.

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I just don't see Dillwank supporting Jill in more than a part-time job.  I'm sure he's fine with her continuing her education or even working some, but he's going to draw the line on anything that may require trade-offs with *his* career and/or require him to take on more household duties.  He wanted a 'traditional' wife, and even with all that's happened in the past couple years, I don't see that changing for the foreseeable future.  

If they were smart, they'd be working on a way to monetize Jill's social media following, especially now that they're not so fundie anymore.  It's not like her sisters are any good at it...

 

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