Seewalds 43: Pants may Have Been Worn Or Not

[baldricks_turnip]

I'm ultra-sensitive to criticism of 'fed is best' because I see it as pressure on new mothers who are already struggling with all the stresses and demands of a new baby, and right now I'm just a few weeks away from giving birth to #2 and am nervous about what my experience will be this time.
I think something often overlooked in the debate is the sense of relief many women get when they 'give up' trying to breastfeed. Breastfeeding in the early days is hard work for many, many women. Helping your baby latch on correctly, cracked and bleeding nipples, pumping/feeding around the clock to bring up supply, cluster feeding. A friend of mine was told by her doula that her #1 priority in the immediate aftermath of birth was to get herself a 4 hour chunk of sleep each 24 hour period, that this was the best way to promote her physical recovery, her ability to bond with her baby and in many cases prevent postpartum depression. For many breastfeeding women it is almost impossible to achieve 4 hour chunks of sleep: the baby wants to feed more often than that because of how quickly breast milk is digested and many women haven't yet established such a supply that they could pump a bottle for their partner to feed with.
When we push 'breast is best' we give mothers advice that is about breastfeeding at all costs. When my 3 day old daughter wasn't producing wet nappies I was put on a 2 hour regime of pumping and breastfeeding that took over an hour each time, meaning I got about 30-40 minute chunks of sleep if I was lucky. I was so sleep deprived that I felt close to breakdown. I was hallucinating, which I thought was due to the pain medication for my c section and so I stopped taking those meds. My life improved 100% when I switched to formula.

[jljohnson527]

Baldrick, I hear you. Personally I always say that #1 never had formula but future kiddos definitely will. The stress, particularly the stress of pumping at work, was absolutely not worth it for me.

And the source of my vigilance wasn’t any internal value, it was essentially a “keeping up with the Joneses” thing. For me, that’s lost in a lot of these conversations: does a woman WANT to nurse, or does she feel she SHOULD nurse. If it’s only the latter, quit that shit.

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, jljohnson527 said:

Baldrick, I hear you. Personally I always say that #1 never had formula but future kiddos definitely will. The stress, particularly the stress of pumping at work, was absolutely not worth it for me.

And the source of my vigilance wasn’t any internal value, it was essentially a “keeping up with the Joneses” thing. For me, that’s lost in a lot of these conversations: does a woman WANT to nurse, or does she feel she SHOULD nurse. If it’s only the latter, quit that shit.

I am the person above who mentioned a co-worker who EBF her twins. Well,  as it turns out, her next pregnancy also resulted in twins. She EBF those twins as well, but now some 30 years later she admits it would have been better for all concerned if she had given all of them some formula along the way. 

[Screamapillar]

15 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I will venture into this to say, I can understand why Jessa's posts make some stabby. She is the "face" and "premier spokesperson" for a family that 100% brands itself on its superiority to the rest of us. Does Jessa have compassion and understanding for mothers in less privileged circumstances? I don't know. I just don't know. 

Well said. She was also completely understanding when none of her grown-ass brothers would change her toddler's diaper when she left him in their care. They deserved a snarky telling off from her equal to the ones she gives trolling strangers in her comment section, IMO. Men might not have breasts to feed a baby, but they sure as hell have hands to change a diaper with.

Jessa is lucky that she has the availability to feed on demand and to never be away from her toddler so long that a poopy diaper can be left unchanged. Does she understand her privilege? Probably not. I think that might be part of why Jessa's posts can rub people the wrong way. I mean, it's nice that Jessa doesn't "keep sweet", but her snarkiness is still in support of the cult in which she was raised.

In Jessa's wedding episode both Jim Bob and Michelle brought up that line about if you can raise a strong willed child you can raise them to be strong willed for Jesus, or something to that effect. I think they accomplished exactly that with Jessa.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Screamapillar

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

20 hours ago, Deanie said:

I take issue with the phrase 'fed is best'.  I think the minimum we can do for our children is feed them.  I don't use 'breast is best either,' really it's just that breastfeeding is biologically normal.  

It has nothing to do with the caring of the child and everything to do with stopping mommy shaming, which you are doing by this statement. You are shaming mothers for not breastfeeding. It may not have been your intention but it sounds very shamy to me. 

Fed is best is saying, it is none of anyone's damn business how that child is fed, as long as it is fed.  Because breastfeeding moms are shamed, bottle feeding moms are shamed, it doesn't matter what a mom is doing to feed her child SOMEONE will not like it, and those someones can go fuck themselves. 
 

@lizzybee My sister & I had the same issue, we tried unsuccessfully to feed 4 babies between us, and nada. 

 

@baldricks_turnip Oh yeah the pressure to EBF, can be overwhelming. I know a lot of women who breastfed and hated every second of it but felt guilted into doing it.  I always tell expecting new moms not to let anyone guilt you into doing things you don't want to do, or guilt you out of doing things you DO want to do, they are the best judges of what will be best for their child. 

[Giraffe]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I am the person above who mentioned a co-worker who EBF her twins. Well,  as it turns out, her next pregnancy also resulted in twins. She EBF those twins as well, but now some 30 years later she admits it would have been better for all concerned if she had given all of them some formula along the way. 

Same with my mom. She saw someone bottle feeding one twin while breastfeeding the other and said if she were to do it over again that’s what she’d have done. 

[just_ordinary]

Every study I read stated the benefits in such a small amount- it’s basically irrelevant how you feed them. Bad air quality is a much bigger issue to develop allergies/asthma  but nobody shames parents for raising children in bigger cities. 
In the Western World almost a whole generation was raised on formula. The world didn’t end, people were still able to form loving relationships and aren’t more ill or stupid than later generations.
Do whatever is the right thing for all involved (and yes you might regret the decision later or change it but that’s life. Just make sure it’s your decision.).

[neuroticcat]

I agree wholeheartedly with the above statements that mom shaming is harmful. But the response to that...to say everything is “best”, so that moms feel better about themselves - is also harmful and, in my opinion, reinforces the perfectionism. Some things might be factually “better” and I think we need to get over our own self shame that we don’t always/can’t always choose it and still be okay hearing the truth, even when it reflects that we are not always amazing.

Right now my toddlers watch two full hours of Paw Patrol daily. It is undeniably factual that this is not “best” developmentally for them. I almost listed my reasons “why” I let them right now so you, random internet strangers, would know it’s totally justifiable and I still am a good parent! I promise! And then I deleted it, because this is what I mean. I am incapable of always choosing the best - even when I know it- and that’s okay. 

If another mom says that screen time before two is not recommended, she’s telling the truth not shaming me. If I take on the shame that’s my own issue and no reassurance in the world that Paw Patrol teaches educational stuff or whatever is going to make that right inside. 

I think we need to get over the perfectionism ( whether true or perceived) that we have to do everything The Best. It is OK to pick an adequate option...especially in parenting...and not even have to defend yourself. It’s OK for others to disagree with your parenting or even have factual information that your choice is not amazing and you can still choose it, Shame free! As long as children are adequately cared for and loved, we are doing okay! 

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I agree wholeheartedly with the above statements that mom shaming is harmful. But the response to that...to say everything is “best”, so that moms feel better about themselves - is also harmful and, in my opinion, reinforces the perfectionism. Some things might be factually “better” and I think we need to get over our own self shame that we don’t always/can’t always choose it and still be okay hearing the truth, even when it reflects that we are not always amazing.

Right now my toddlers watch two full hours of Paw Patrol daily. It is undeniably factual that this is not “best” developmentally for them. I almost listed my reasons “why” I let them right now so you, random internet strangers, would know it’s totally justifiable and I still am a good parent! I promise! And then I deleted it, because this is what I mean. I am incapable of always choosing the best - even when I know it- and that’s okay. 

If another mom says that screen time before two is not recommended, she’s telling the truth not shaming me. If I take on the shame that’s my own issue and no reassurance in the world that Paw Patrol teaches educational stuff or whatever is going to make that right inside. 

I think we need to get over the perfectionism ( whether true or perceived) that we have to do everything The Best. It is OK to pick an adequate option...especially in parenting...and not even have to defend yourself. It’s OK for others to disagree with your parenting or even have factual information that your choice is not amazing and you can still choose it, Shame free! As long as children are adequately cared for and loved, we are doing okay! 

My inside the house, sucking thumb, watching TV at every opportunity, turned out to be my most academic, social, logical as an adult offspring. He is also the laziest one, can’t win them all. ?

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

6 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I agree wholeheartedly with the above statements that mom shaming is harmful. But the response to that...to say everything is “best”, so that moms feel better about themselves - is also harmful and, in my opinion, reinforces the perfectionism. Some things might be factually “better” and I think we need to get over our own self shame that we don’t always/can’t always choose it and still be okay hearing the truth, even when it reflects that we are not always amazing.

Right now my toddlers watch two full hours of Paw Patrol daily. It is undeniably factual that this is not “best” developmentally for them. I almost listed my reasons “why” I let them right now so you, random internet strangers, would know it’s totally justifiable and I still am a good parent! I promise! And then I deleted it, because this is what I mean. I am incapable of always choosing the best - even when I know it- and that’s okay. 

If another mom says that screen time before two is not recommended, she’s telling the truth not shaming me. If I take on the shame that’s my own issue and no reassurance in the world that Paw Patrol teaches educational stuff or whatever is going to make that right inside. 

I think we need to get over the perfectionism ( whether true or perceived) that we have to do everything The Best. It is OK to pick an adequate option...especially in parenting...and not even have to defend yourself. It’s OK for others to disagree with your parenting or even have factual information that your choice is not amazing and you can still choose it, Shame free! As long as children are adequately cared for and loved, we are doing okay! 

How is saying "fed is best" enforcing perfectionism? No one is saying everything is best, it is just a simple phrase to let someone know their opinion is neither wanted nor needed on how their child is being fed. It has NOTHING to do with anything else, I think you are reading WAY to much into these 3 words.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

Michelle Seewald is wedding dress shopping already. 

[neuroticcat]

1 hour ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

How is saying "fed is best" enforcing perfectionism? No one is saying everything is best, it is just a simple phrase to let someone know their opinion is neither wanted nor needed on how their child is being fed. It has NOTHING to do with anything else, I think you are reading WAY to much into these 3 words.  

I think the perfectionism is in implying that we have to name our choices/defend them by saying we’ve chosen the “best.”  All options aren’t equal. Some are factually better than others and we don’t have to always choose the best option. It’s not a failure or shame to choose second best. It’s okay. ??‍♀️ 
 

But requiring others to not name the facts so we don’t feel shame seems unhelpful to me. 

In my opinion it would be more liberating to say exactly what you’ve said: no one’s input is wanted or needed in this choice. 

[raspberrymint]

This is just semantics.  

Fed is best because starvation is the alternative.

[Ali]

I think women should be able exclusively breastfeed, exclusively pump, exclusively formula feed, or use a combination of methods for feeding without having to defend how they are feeding their baby or having to provide their reason for their choice. Is the baby being fed enough milk? Yes? Then mind your own business! Enough with the mommy wars!

[QuiverFullofBooks]

12 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Michelle Seewald is wedding dress shopping already. 

She’s engaged, so that seems pretty normal. Plus alterations can take ages.

[JermajestyDuggar]

30 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

She’s engaged, so that seems pretty normal. Plus alterations can take ages.

I think it’s normal for fundies because they have such short engagements. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

13 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I think the perfectionism is in implying that we have to name our choices/defend them by saying we’ve chosen the “best.”  All options aren’t equal. Some are factually better than others and we don’t have to always choose the best option. It’s not a failure or shame to choose second best. It’s okay. ??‍♀️ 
 

But requiring others to not name the facts so we don’t feel shame seems unhelpful to me. 

In my opinion it would be more liberating to say exactly what you’ve said: no one’s input is wanted or needed in this choice. 

The POINT that you are choosing to miss, is people don't care what YOUR OPINION IS, and it is very presumptuous of you to assume that because someone chooses something different than you did they don't know medical opinion. 

And the real FACT is breastfeeding ISN'T always best, if doing so makes the mother miserable and affects her ability to properly care for her baby.  Or mothers that are on meditations, some of which can be harmful to the baby, they are passed in the breastmilk. Many women with mental health issues risk it during the pregnancy and don't take their meds, because it is best for the baby. But going ANOTHER few months/year without their anxiety, depression, ADHD, Bipolar meds is a nightmare  (mind what you say about meds for mental illness, I'm ON them right now for Anxiety & ADHD, it is a very very real thing) and a huge risk to the baby. In this case breast is NOT best. 

I knew a woman who had an eating disorder, she could barely stand to gain weight when pregnant, and she insisted on BF because it was cheaper and she'd lose more weight. She lived on celery, kale and 1/2 of a boneless skinless chicken breast a day. She said she only took in 500 calories a day, AND she breastfed, for tried too for about 3 weeks, but had to switch to formula because shockingly she didn't produce enough milk to feed her son.  Would it have been better for that baby to starve because breast is best? 

Let me tell you, as a mom of adults, how you feed your kids doesn't matter one little bit, no one says as they grow up, I'm only here because my mom chose to breastfeed.  There isn't a section on a job application that asks were you breastfed or formula fed.  

[neuroticcat]

 

Breastfeed or don’t breastfeed for “good” reasons or “bad.” I don’t have a dog in the breastfeeding fight.  I take issue with the concept that says if someone says breastfeeding is best  we have to also declare not breastfeeding is best and whatever other option is also we choose to do is best...just so we don’t feel less than/shamed. 

 

 

 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

 I take issue with the concept that says if someone says breastfeeding is best

I think the problem people are having is you deciding breast is best, but giving permission for others to be less than best.

The point is breast is not best in every instance and sometimes not breastfeeding IS best for the baby and the mother.

It's you sitting in judgement and deciding what is best that is offputting.

[Maggie Mae]

Are we seriously not supposed to say that given the following exam that there isn't a clear answer? 

 

1.) When feeding your child, which of the following options is best? Please read ALL choices and select the answer that is closest to correct. 

• a.) Breast feeding
• b.) Formula Feeding
• c.) not feeding your child
• d.) Either breast feeding or formula feeding is fine, introducing solid foods as developmentally appropriate. 

[neuroticcat]

20 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think the problem people are having is you deciding breast is best, but giving permission for others to be less than best.

The point is breast is not best in every instance and sometimes not breastfeeding IS best for the baby and the mother.

It's you sitting in judgement and deciding what is best that is offputting.

You’re right. I haven’t read up on it in ages so facts may have changed. Last I remember the facts were that breast milk is nutritionally superior, better antibodies, less infections later on,  etc. ... so qualitatively better nutritionally compared to formula. Research could have changed however...it’s why I chose my kids’ TV watching to illustrate my point originally since I’m not trying to make a statement about feeding babies but about our own needs as mom’s need for outside approval. 

I don’t think it must mean I’m sitting in judgment to say the above  are biologically true facts (assuming they’re still are!) even if women can’t, shouldn’t, or won’t breastfeed. Trying to reframe the facts doesn’t liberate women in their choices ... it seems to trap them more into having to prove they still made the best choice, exhausted all options, drove themselves crazy, etc. before letting go of some ideal. Out of all my mom friends I only know one who point blank said she stopped breastfeeding because it grossed her out...and she totally didn’t care what anyone else thought. All others who didn’t end up breastfeeding felt obligated to give justification. 
 

Does that make sense? Just my observation about mom culture...that we still feel like we have to have outside facts to endorse our choices.  I am all for women choosing whatever they want! 

[Glasgowghirl]

Fed is best is said because while we all know the benefits of breastfeeding along with eating healthily are best, their are situations where bottle feeding or maybe feeding yourself or your child food not that healthy are all you can do. Jessa seemed more than happy to have Ivy with her and breast feed her rather than leave her with Ben, I don't see an issue with that and if she had left Ivy with Ben, I wouldn't have seen an issue either but people probably would have said shit about that too. Ben got shamed for eating Ice cream while holding Ivy when she was a couple of months old because he didn't give her any but if he had he would have been shamed for that too. When it comes to children people cant seem to win. 

My 13 year old nephew has a food phobia and it is only in the past few months he has gradually tried some new foods and has increased how often he eats. He has set things he likes and most of it is probably not the healthiest but the dietitian has said when it comes to someone who doesn't eat most things any food added to the list is a victory. Putting a normal plate of food and not offering anything else didn't work in situations like this either. 

[Xan]

Just jumping in to say that this seems to be an argument mostly over semantics.  "Fed is best" is not an argument against the reality that babies' best first food is their mothers' breast milk.  I breast fed my first babies too but, with my last baby, was not able to breastfeed.  I simply wasn't making milk at that point.  I think most women who don't breast feed have very good reasons and aren't merely trying to rationalize or justify it to anyone.  I know that I didn't particularly feel the need to explain it or try to make myself feel better.  I just wanted to make sure my child got the necessary nutrition.

Embracing "fed is best" is not denigrating breast milk.  It's simply admitting the reality that exclusively breast feeding isn't always possible.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Xan

[HerNameIsBuffy]

32 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

You’re right. I haven’t read up on it in ages so facts may have changed. Last I remember the facts were that breast milk is nutritionally superior, better antibodies, less infections later on,  etc. ... so qualitatively better nutritionally compared to formula. Research could have changed however...it’s why I chose my kids’ TV watching to illustrate my point originally since I’m not trying to make a statement about feeding babies but about our own needs as mom’s need for outside approval. 

I don’t think it must mean I’m sitting in judgment to say the above  are biologically true facts (assuming they’re still are!) even if women can’t, shouldn’t, or won’t breastfeed. Trying to reframe the facts doesn’t liberate women in their choices ... it seems to trap them more into having to prove they still made the best choice, exhausted all options, drove themselves crazy, etc. before letting go of some ideal. Out of all my mom friends I only know one who point blank said she stopped breastfeeding because it grossed her out...and she totally didn’t care what anyone else thought. All others who didn’t end up breastfeeding felt obligated to give justification. 
 

Does that make sense? Just my observation about mom culture...that we still feel like we have to have outside facts to endorse our choices.  I am all for women choosing whatever they want! 

So if breastmilk is nutritionally superior is it still best for the baby if the mom can't?   Or if the mom is a better mom over all if she can have medication she needs, is breast milk still the best if it means parenting is significantly less than optimal in multiple other areas?  Or if a woman can't pump and needs to work, is breastmilk still best if it means she cannot work and the families income is compromised, giving them less resources for the child?

I don't know if you mean to come off as judgmental, but that's really how it reads to me.  You are looking at breast as being "best" and allowing other women to be less than best.

But other women don't need your permission to be "less than" and you aren't taking into account the millions of variables which can make formula better than breast in some situations.

You can decide it's best....generations of people, millions upon millions of people, raised on formula who are healthy and fine are testament to the fact that what is best for the baby is what's best for that individual mother and child.

 

[neuroticcat]

I think women should absolutely be allowed to be less than best. And I think we should absolutely give each other permission (because obviously women care what other women think, whether they should or not) to be adequate (vs. best). Women don’t need to defend their choices or explain their scenario to define their choices as best to make them legitimate. 

I have zero judgment on baby feeding. I’ve done both breastfeeding and formula feeding myself. Neither was always the objectively factually best option but was the option I chose at the time. 
 

ETA: To answer your original question...if the mom can’t breastfeed it doesn’t change the nutritional content of breast milk vs. formula. If indeed breast milk is better nutritionally, it just is. That’s a fact. But if a woman can’t - or doesn’t want to even - breastfeed, there are  fine nutritionally sound alternatives and it’s ridiculous if people imply she’s a crappy mom for that, and, as someone else stated, it doesn’t matter in the end. Why she feels she must explain why her decision is still the best option or if she still feels like a crappy mom seems to say more about internalized mommy perfectionism to me, which is the only point I’m trying (and perhaps failing!) to make. 
 

I’m suggesting the vocabulary we use either reinforces that perfectionism or frees us from it. But I’m not going to fault anyone for disagreeing or saying “fed is best.” 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by neuroticcat