New here with a question about Headship

[ktm]

Well actually, I've been lurking around here for a while, but this would be my first actual post.

Personally, I am egalitarian, but my question pertains to male headship. I've read and heard both men and women who believe in headship say, that if the husband leads the wife wrong or makes a bad decision for the family, that the husband would be held responsible with God, and not the wife. I am unaware of anything in the bible stating this, and wondered if it's in there, what verse it is. Maybe one of you knows.

For me, that doesn't make any sense, but then again, I have on my egalitarian glasses. As far as I understand it, each individual will be held accountable for their own deeds. It's like me sending all my money to a pulpit pimp because he "told" me to, and because he said he was "over" me, and then when I end up on the street because of it, I complain and blame it all on the pulpit pimp, as if I had no mind of my own to have decided whether or not it was wise to send him all my money, regardless to what he said about being "over" me.

Ugh, I hope my question makes sense. This headship stuff really makes my head spin. I feel like I have to do mental gymnastics just to understand it.

[debrand]

I'm no longer Christian but I never read anything in the bible that says that God doesn't hold individuals accountable for their own actions. There was an insane book called What? Me Obey Him? That claimed that a woman should follow her husband even if he asks her to sin. Either god will prevent her from having to follow through with the action or her husband will be the only one held accountable before god. There is nothing in the bible to back that view up.

Christians sometimes talk about making idols out of certain things. I think that some Christians make an idol out of wifely submission

[thetabmeister]

I believe that we are all supposed to use our own brains and minds to make decisions. To me submission where it's one person blindly following another is not only NOT found in the Bible, but contrary to nature. We all have been given an instinct, conscience, sixth sense, whatever you call it that helps guide us in situations, and besides that we all have some level of capability in gathering knowledge, classifying and understanding it, and then applying it to life. :)

[thetabmeister]

I'm no longer Christian but I never read anything in the bible that says that God doesn't hold individuals accountable for their own actions. There was an insane book called What? Me Obey Him? That claimed that a woman should follow her husband even if he asks her to sin. Either god will prevent her from having to follow through with the action or her husband will be the only one held accountable before god. There is nothing in the bible to back that view up.

Christians sometimes talk about making idols out of certain things. I think that some Christians make an idol out of wifely submission

Excellent post! Spot on.

[Austin]

This is a theological point over which those on the far right end of the fundie spectrum disagree. There are many verses that point to individual salvation, and there is scripture that says that in God's eyes, men and women are the same, such as this verse:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28 KJV

But then there's this troubling verse:

But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. . . -1 Timothy 2:15 KJV

Which leads some fundies to believe that men are saved directly through the propitiation of Christ and women are saved through childbearing, so men are held "more responsible" since their salvation is of the direct type. Or some such crap.

[maybeizfundie]

It's a stretch, from the Ephesians 5 passage.

What I think is interesting is that the command to the wife is submit, but the command to the husband is *not* to lead. It is to love.

[ktm]

Thank you all for your answers. I didn't *think* there was anything that specifically said that in the bible, but it was possible that I might've missed it the past.

Wow, why anyone would want to blame their spouse like that, and claim to love them, is beyond me! Wow!

[abba12]

The way I understand it is that we are called to submit up to the point of sin. God's law is superior to man's law and to our husbands 'law'. If it breaks Gods law then it should not be done, even if our husbands insist.

If it does not break Gods law, we should submit. (I believe that submission should be after discussion). If it all goes wrong at that point, it is on the husband who insisted it be done that way. The wife fulfilled her command to submit, and also provided Godly counsel in stating her disagreeing opinion. In heaven God will see his decision to do as he did, and her decision to submit, even though she disagreed.

If you're talking about times when they both agree, it is still the responsibility of the headship to lead, but the wife will also be accountable as she agreed and made no attempt to stop him, or reason with him. She gave no Godly counsel and, thus, is almost as guilty as her husband.

With all of this you must remember, what is uncomfortable on earth is not nececarily wrong in heaven. For example quitting a job due to immoral practices of the company is uncomfortable on earth, for sure. But I believe it is right in heaven. So any 'I told you so's' from a stressed wife may be a little premature.

[emmiedahl]

So, if the husband wants to sin by drunk driving or child molestation, you think the wife should express her opinion and then go along with it? Please tell me I misunderstood that.

[abba12]

"God's law is superior to man's law and to our husbands 'law'. If it breaks Gods law then it should not be done, even if our husbands insist."

I'm sorry, did you miss this section, or do you genuinly think that child molestation is not a biblical sin?? I don't mean to be rude but you've caught me off guard there.

Child molestation is absolutely against God's law, thus she should not go along with it, and should in fact call the police. There were courts of law in biblical times you know.

Allowing your husband to drink drive would be watching him put himself in a life threatening situation and doing nothing to stop it, I'm not sure whether it's strictly a sin but I think most women would agree you should consider it as such and not allow it to the best of your abilities (not get in the car, take the keys etc).

When I say it does not break Gods law, I mean things like deciding whether or not to move, what church to attend, those decisions where they may disagree but neither action is sinful. A loving husband will consider his wife's feelings in making those sorts of decisions but if they are at odds, ultimately one person needs to decide, and it should be him.

[tehgoobster]

abba12,

I have a few questions about your views on submission if that's okay. Do you believe that egalitarian marriages are unbiblical and/or impractical? Judging from your posts, it seems you hold complementarian views. You're a Christian, so a large portion of your basis for being so is based on your interpretation of the Bible. Practically speaking, though, do you think that all men have inherent qualities that make them more competent leaders than women? As a non-believer, I'm curious as to whether your views on this are based entirely on the Bible to the exclusion of anything else or if your belief is at least partially based in science, sociology, etc. Do you believe that society should be structured around this belief? For example, do you believe that married women should be homemakers/SAHMs and that working men should earn more than working women because men could be supporting a family?

I know you believe that wives shouldn't be forced to do anything that would be considered sinful, but what if a husband and wife disagreed on a particular financial decision? Assume that the wife in this hypothetical example was better with finances, and she was right about this particular decision. Her husband, who wasn't as good with money, disagreed with her. Do you believe that she should have submitted to her husband's decision, even though his decision wasn't particularly wise/correct?

Edited to fix a riffle.

[abba12]

...

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... I just spent a very long time writing up and carefully wording a response to this. The forum logged me out during that time, and ate it.

I will respond, but in the morning, when I feel motivated to sit down and rewrite what I had written. It was quite a long, thought out response. I really don't feel up to starting over tonight.

(I'm in Australia, it's 5:45pm here)

As for the forum... well, I found your violent smileys, and I think it describes my feelings quite well right now

:violence-hammer: :violence-minigun: :violence-pistoldouble: :violence-rapidfire: :violence-smack: