Women Priests

[47of74]

Just saw this great article about a woman who was ordained as a Catholic priest; 

Quote

Elsie McGrath never thought of herself as a rulebreaker. 

But in 2007, she broke one of the most fundamental rules in Roman Catholicism when she became an ordained priest. 

She was later excommunicated, along with fellow priest Rose Marie Hudson and Bishop Patricia Fresen, who ordained the two.

 

Article went on to say that Lord High Ray got so pissy he sent someone to the ordination ceremony to serve them a document saying they had committed “the gravest of sins.”  

Up yours Ray. You turned a blind eye to the sins of male clergy but the second women stand up to you you’re all about punishing them. 

[Coconut Flan]

Interesting they bring this up now all these years later.  I remember when it happened.  

Quote

 Last month, Pope Francis caused a stir when he said the Vatican would explore the possibility of female deacons, a class of ministry allowed to oversee weddings and baptisms but not provide communion.

That isn't exactly accurate or I live in a diocese practicing heresy.  Deacons may not consecrate the hosts, but they are allowed to distribute licitly consecrated hosts in a communion service in lieu of mass.  They do perform weddings and baptisms.  

[MamaJunebug]

So where does this Therese Of Divine Peace congregation congregate, I wonder? 

The little ditty became my earworm as I read:

You are the church

We are the church together 

All of God's People, 

All around the world,

Yes, we’re the church together.

A female human wanting to serve others in the name of Jesus is “the gravest of sins.”  Yep, sure.  

[NachosFlandersStyle]

4 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

So where does this Therese Of Divine Peace congregation congregate, I wonder? 

It appears they meet at a UU church. It's an "intentional eucharistic community," which basically means that they consider themselves an unofficial, alternative gathering "in the Catholic tradition." My mom is part of one of these, seems like a good option for someone who can't abide the actions of the Catholic church but also can't imagine not being Catholic.

[Marmion]

 

[smittykins]

Although I’m happy in the Episcopal Church, I admit that if I lived in the Rochester area, I’d probably go to Spiritus Christi .

[MamaJunebug]

On 11/15/2019 at 1:18 PM, NachosFlandersStyle said:

It appears they meet at a UU church. It's an "intentional eucharistic community," which basically means that they consider themselves an unofficial, alternative gathering "in the Catholic tradition." My mom is part of one of these, seems like a good option for someone who can't abide the actions of the Catholic church but also can't imagine not being Catholic.

Thanks!  I’ll see if I can find out which. No desire to be Catholic but I’d like to meet these ladies & give ‘em an atta!

[47of74]

Yesterday was the 49th anniversary of Ludmila Javorová’s ordination. 

Quote

December 28, 1970—the Feast of the Holy Innocents—something took place in the Czech city of Brno that must have made the angels sing. Ludmila Javorová, a thirty-eight year old woman, became a Roman Catholic priest. She was one of seven women who were ordained to the priesthood—three or four more were ordained as deacons—during the terrible years in which Czechoslovakia endured Soviet rule. Throughout this period, which Czechs called the “Totality” to emphasize the ominously comprehensive way in which the communists sought to infiltrate every aspect of daily life, the persecuted Church was forced underground to become the “hidden church.” Its members quickly learned that their new situation demanded novel responses, including rethinking an exclusively male priesthood.

The series of velvet revolutions that liberated European countries from Soviet domination in 1989 brought democracy back to Czechoslovakia. Four years later, a peaceful referendum dissolved the old nation to create two new ones, the Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic. With religious freedom restored, the hidden church was no longer necessary, and the Vatican began the process of deciding whether to recognize the Holy Orders of the Czechs—single men, married men, and women—whom Bishop Davidek had ordained. Unfortunately, Davidek had died the year before Czechoslovakia was liberated, and by necessity the hidden church had kept few written records that might’ve exposed its members. So the process was slow and laborious. Many of the priests from the hidden church, worried that the Vatican would not recognize their Orders, chose to remain underground.

Javorová wasn’t one of them. Although her ordination wasn’t public knowledge, she made no effort to hide it from Vatican officials. The result was predictable. In 1996, she was forbidden to exercise her priesthood on the grounds that her Orders were invalid—not because she had been ordained in the hidden church, but for the sole reason that she was a woman. The Roman authorities allowed her, however, to serve as a catechist, and she has spent the years since 1996 teaching Catholic children in Brno the basis of the Faith.

How nice of the Roman church to “allow” her to work as a catechist. She stepped up to the plate in a time of need and the Roman church told her off afterwards. 

And people wonder why u gave the Roman church the ol heave ho. 
 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Coconut Flan

[47of74]

And where I said "And people wonder why u gave the Roman church the ol heave ho."  That should be "And people wonder why I gave the Roman church the ol heave ho."

Fucking autocorrect. 

[Four is Enough]

I have friends in various parts of the Independent Catholic Church.  Both men and women have been ordained. One thing that holds me back from believing in their vocation is that most of them actively hide their ordination. One said her Non Catholic parents wouldn't approve. Another said he couldn't say he was ordained (but he was already a bishop!) because of some sort of job problem..

If you're a priest, you're a priest. They're not making martyrs of priests in America any more.

[Howl]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:27 PM, smittykins said:

Although I’m happy in the Episcopal Church, I admit that if I lived in the Rochester area, I’d probably go to Spiritus Christi .

Heck, I'm nominally Buddhist, but if I lived in the Rochester area, I'd probably go to Spiritus Christi!  It sounds wonderful. 

Slight drift about women pastors/priests: I've just come across two women pastors/priests in Protestant religions in small towns in SE Texas.  I found out about one, the local Methodist minister, when she gave the invocation (a reallllllly long one) for the start of a bicycling event in Goliad TX (population < 2,000), one of the oldest municipalities in Texas.  The other is the priest for an Episcopalian congregation in a town of about 5,000, about 40 miles away.  These towns are, as you might guess, politically conservative, but the congregants are happy to have them. 

 

 

 

[Cleopatra7]

There’s an interesting book about the more left wing independent Catholics called “The Other Catholics” by Julie Byrne. The SSPX and it’s many offshoots are mentioned, but not swelled upon, probably because there is already a lot on them. The main takeaway I got from the book and from the many essays the SSPX have written defending their approach to ordination is that ordination is in the eye of the beholder and their congregation. These independent Catholics seem perfectly fine to be out of communion with the Vatican and their communities accept it, so have at it.

[llucie]

23 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

There’s an interesting book about the more left wing independent Catholics called “The Other Catholics” by Julie Byrne. The SSPX and it’s many offshoots are mentioned, but not swelled upon, probably because there is already a lot on them. The main takeaway I got from the book and from the many essays the SSPX have written defending their approach to ordination is that ordination is in the eye of the beholder and their congregation. These independent Catholics seem perfectly fine to be out of communion with the Vatican and their communities accept it, so have at it.

If you are independent from the vatican and are excommunicated can you be really called a catholic? wouldnt that just be another christian off-shot like the millions that already exist.

[Four is Enough]

@Cleopatra7, these Independent Catholics to which I refer consider themselves in complete communion with the RC church, except their ordination (according to the order of Melchizedech) came... shall we say... on a very sideways trajectory.. they want and expect to be treated as RC clergy, even though their own parents don't know they're ordained? I don't buy it.

[Cleopatra7]

28 minutes ago, llucie said:

If you are independent from the vatican and are excommunicated can you be really called a catholic? wouldnt that just be another christian off-shot like the millions that already exist.

The rationale depends on which group you talk to. The super liberal independent Catholics would say that Catholicism is a tradition not necessarily an institution and the Roman Catholic Church based out of the Vatican is just one particular iteration. The RCC kind of believes this, but states that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are the only groups that have a legitimate claim of being co-equal with itself, because it has valid orders and unbroken tradition. Liberal independent Catholics would also say that the RCC doesn’t have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit and that it can be found in the small c catholic tradition, regardless of institutional affiliation. Hence, they would consider themselves in communion with the Vatican, but not vice verse.

The right wing Independent Catholics like the SSPX, SSPV, and other smaller offshoots are a bit different. In the case of the SSPX, the RCC recognizes their priests as being validly ordained, but done illicitly, which is kind of like having a medical degree but practicing without a license. The fact that SSPX orders are considered valid by the Vatican gives them a lot of cachet in trad world, even though they seem to be veering off into sedevacantism. On a practical level, many SSPX supporters do think they are in the “True Church” and the billions of ordinary Catholics that belong to the RCC are lazy fakers, which the liberal independents would never do.

The SSPV, which broke away from the SSPX over sedevacantism and money, is where you get the most involved discussions about ordination. A lot of their priests were ordained by a rouge Vietnamese bishop named Pierre Thuc who was notorious for ordaining or even consecrating any trad man who asked him. Thuc kept leaving and reconciling with the Vatican, which makes a lot of people suspicious about his motives. If you google “Thuc ordinations valid” you’ll get all kinds of lengthy, involved essays about what constitutes a valid ordination in the “darkness” of a post Vatican II world.

[47of74]

I have friends in various parts of the Independent Catholic Church.  Both men and women have been ordained. One thing that holds me back from believing in their vocation is that most of them actively hide their ordination. One said her Non Catholic parents wouldn't approve. Another said he couldn't say he was ordained (but he was already a bishop!) because of some sort of job problem..
If you're a priest, you're a priest. They're not making martyrs of priests in America any more.

The previous rector at my church said after the abuse scandal erupted she felt uncomfortable wearing the Roman collar in public. Even though she was and is an Episcopal priest. After a while she decided being embarrassed was ceding power to the abusers and that wearing the collar was an act of reclaiming it from evil people.