AMA with former ATI member

[Eponine]

I really do think this person has had personal experiences with ATI. And I really do think that she's talked to a lot of people involved and probably done a lot of research.

The issue with this AMA is that there is so much sliding between verifiable fact, bits of her own experience, and her extrapolations/opinions. Most of it is all just presented as fact, even though she does throw in "my personal theory" or "my opinion" a lot. I think it we leave out the speculation it's all mainly stuff that we knew or could have put together previously.

Knowing several families who had sexual abuse --> all ATI families had sexual abuse

The Kellers appear to be poorer and less connected than the families they married into --> Pa Keller is involved with some kind of trafficking ring

Daughters marking their menstrual cycles on calendars --> fathers keep track of daughters' cycles so they don't impregnate them

Media doesn't pay much attention to this particular subgroup --> media doesn't care about poor pro-Trump white people

As I said before, the more interesting stuff in here is not her opinions on individual families or experiences, it's the discussion of Gothard's personal and political power tactics, how ATI maintains its influence and power, and general information about living with ATI. And again, I do believe that she has personal experience with that.

There is a huge amount of assumption and hyperbole in the AMA, but I think we can probably all see where the issues are and what to take with a mountain of salt.

[church_of_dog]

Don't know this fits in, and we've certainly seem some long cons, but there were at least two instances in that AMA where a person commented about recognizing/remembering Jays_Motorcycle from an earlier site where they had supposedly read her writings or interacted.  Something called Serial?

Assuming those commenters aren't part of any con, it would at least suggest this isn't a whimsical/immediate fake presentation.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, church_of_dog said:

Don't know this fits in, and we've certainly seem some long cons, but there were at least two instances in that AMA where a person commented about recognizing/remembering Jays_Motorcycle from an earlier site where they had supposedly read her writings or interacted.  Something called Serial?

Assuming those commenters aren't part of any con, it would at least suggest this isn't a whimsical/immediate fake presentation.

Were those commenters real accounts with unrelated activity?  I just ask because it's so easy on reddit to create a throwaway (sock) and so checking user history is helpful.

[church_of_dog]

5 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Were those commenters real accounts with unrelated activity?  I just ask because it's so easy on reddit to create a throwaway (sock) and so checking user history is helpful.

I have no idea and no idea how to tell.  

I'll see if I can find them again.

Searching for "serial" in that thread should find them, if there is a way to search reddit one thread at a time.  At least one of the commenters included a link, presumably to their earlier discussion at Serial.

I don't have social media accounts myself so can only see/navigate what is entirely public and easy to figure out...

[Marshmallow World]

I'm so glad to read this thread on FJ - I got RR vibes pretty quickly and it sealed it when OP claimed that all fathers track their daughters' periods to make sure they don't get pregnant from all the father's raping. I think this is someone who has done a ton of research and MAY have been somewhat involved, but there isn't anything here that isn't insider information. Combine that with all the leghumping and "You're so BRAVE" and OP feels emboldened to keep taking the horror up several notches. But maybe I'm cynical.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, church_of_dog said:

I have no idea and no idea how to tell.  

I'll see if I can find them again.

Searching for "serial" in that thread should find them, if there is a way to search reddit one thread at a time.  At least one of the commenters included a link, presumably to their earlier discussion at Serial.

I don't have social media accounts myself so can only see/navigate what is entirely public and easy to figure out...

If you click on their name you can see their post history.  If it's super new and the only place they've posted is the AMA likely a sock.

[church_of_dog]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

If you click on their name you can see their post history.  If it's super new and the only place they've posted is the AMA likely a sock.

It looks like the thread both posters recognized her from was another reddit thread.  JC comments on more than just Duggar/Fundie stuff.  The two who recognized her aren't new/socks, but that doesn't mean it's not all part of a planned AMA that just took a while to build up to.  

[Beermeet]

I think the Serial thing is from a discussion on a serial podcast thread?  I'm not good at Redditing but I did click on Jay's profile.  I could see what threads they join and one was a podcast thing, if I remember correctly. 

On the period tracking.  Who knew the rythym method worked so well?  It's really gross to type that but seriously.  It doesn't work that well.  If the goal is rape without pregnancy,  the pill would be a better choice.  There would be pregnant daughter's.   Jay had no answers about the mother's knowing or really much to say about them in general.  This is an attack on the men. Who deserve it, but not on that level if untrue.  

[singsingsing]

@Beermeet for real. Unless the fathers are well-versed in FAM and forcing their daughters to diligently track their basal body temperature and cervical mucus every day, there would be an epidemic of SAHD pregnancies, and that obviously isn’t the case. That was the most absurd claim. 

[EmmaWoodhouse]

I didn't grow up ATI, but my family was ATI-adjacent.  It's tempting to find one person/group to blame for my emotional baggage, but a scapegoat doesn't solve the underlying issues.  Jay's Motorcyle could very well have grown up fundie, but she sounds like she needs therapy to work through the baggage rather than AMA to gain (maybe deserved, maybe not) sympathy.  I agree with posters who sense hyperbole.

[Cleopatra7]

I thought Jays Motorcycle was real at first, but I began having doubts when she made the claim about Pa Keller’s prison ministry being a front for a gay sex ring. Granted, I have no doubt that sexual abuse of prisoners by various authority figures is rife and that a lot of prison ministries are exploitative, but I don’t think that what’s happening with Pa Keller. I also don’t think Diane Sawyer would dump a expose because one person didn’t want to participate. Presumably, a bunch of different survivors would be involved in something like this, as was the case with similar programs about Jonestown survivors, Branch Davidians, FLDS, etc. And what’s this “research” she’s claiming ABC wanted to steal from her? If she has a book or a website, she should spit it out. But what did it for me was the claim about herFJ username, which I would definitely remember, unless she joined before I did in the Yuku days. Even so, I lurked, and I would have remembered that. I think there are a lot of ATI survivors, probably more than we’d think, but I don’t think Jays Motorcycle is one of them.

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, llucie said:

The fact that she lied about that makes her super suspicious. Because why lie about that? its not like anyone on reddit would care if you have an account here or not. And if you are even lying in unnecesary details why should i believe everything else?

Maybe you shouldn't.

Honestly this one stinks like dead fish.

2 hours ago, Eponine said:

As I said before, the more interesting stuff in here is not her opinions on individual families or experiences, it's the discussion of Gothard's personal and political power tactics, how ATI maintains its influence and power, and general information about living with ATI. And again, I do believe that she has personal experience with that.

There are plenty of better sources for what actually went on in IBLP under Gothard and too many factual errors in this particular AMA to take it seriously. 

And I don't think Jay is credible or informed about how ATI maintains (or fails to maintain) its influence and power.  They may have personal experience of ATI.  Or they may have cobbled together this story from many different sources,including RG and FJ!  It has happened before.

If you want information about living in ATI and IBLP, other than learning from our survivors here, I recommend reading Recovering Grace.  Or here's a real survivor's personal blog.  She was one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit.  https://findinggodsgifts.com/

I did followup and double-check on one of Jays claims, just in case I wasn't up to date.  What they said.

Quote

 

That is such a kind request! I would encourage anyone who wants to help to donate to the fundraiser for Gothard's victims legal fees.

In 2015, 33 incredibly brave women filed a lawsuit against IBLP and Gothard for sexual abuse. The hope was to shut down IBLP. However, the lawsuit against IBLP/Gothard was dropped in 2018 due to issues with the statute of limitations. Illinois, as the hot seat of Evangelicalism, has particularly Draconian laws that protect abusers. Gothard has been counter-suing these women for the past several years. In addition to the trauma of coming forward and having their case dismissed, they are also being forced to spend lots of money defending themselves against Gothard's counter-suit. These are women who grew up in ATI and left and do not have a lot of financial resources. They have a hearing coming up in January 2020.

If making a donation to help them cover legal costs, please make a note/comment that your donation is intended for "Gothard's Survivors."(Otherwise, it will be sent into the general Hope for Survivors fund.)

http://www.thehopeofsurvivors.org/donate/?fbclid=IwAR16JnDp7P00vTqi7zXMPcGwIqPvH1hA0m9olB-xrDSOmgkv3H6_gDhDD-k

 

Yeah, inaccuracy really annoys me.  Especially when it misrepresents the plaintiffs intentions and position.

Here are the facts:  In 2015, after IBLP had conducted a flawed and inadequate internal investigation into wrongdoing at IBLP, a lawsuit was filed against IBLP.  That lawsuit was later amended to include a total of 17 plaintiffs: 16 women and 1 man.   Not 33.  It was also later amended to name Gothard and individual BoD members as co-defendants.

The original stated goal (per RG) was NOT to "shut down" IBLP but to try to get improvements within IBLP.  To curb Gothard and to get acknowledgement of the pain and suffering caused by Gothard, other IBLP staff, and the BoD.   They wanted to be heard.  And they wanted redress.

In Feb 2018, the plaintiffs voluntarily dismissed the lawsuit, citing difficulties with the SOL.  They had one year to refile if they wanted.  AFAIK they did not refile within that time frame.  

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2018/02/26/breaking-lawsuit-against-bill-gothard-and-the-institute-in-basic-life-principles-dismissed/

Bill Gothard (but not IBLP) did try to counter sue some of the plaintiffs.  He also tried to harass and threaten them.  It got very nasty.  Gothard's  counter suits were dismissed by a judge back in 2018.  And Gothard did not appear to appeal the judge's decision.  Probably because he ran out of lawyers willing to work without pay.  I can find no evidence of "a hearing coming up in January 2020."  

But by all means donate to The Hope of Survivors if you want.  It is a legit 501(c)3.  The plaintiffs did suggest back in early 2018 that donations could be sent there ear-marked for them if they had to fight a Gothard appeal.  Their attorneys were contingency-based and not appellate lawyers so they would have needed money to fight an appeal.

https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2018/03/statement-from-recovering-grace-regarding-the-lawsuit-against-bill-gothard-and-iblp/#more

I really don't think Gothard has appealed.  I think we would know if he had because Awful Alfred, Gothard's poodle at Discovering Grace would tell us.  But he is apparently now intending to sue the BoD of IBLP!  

At least, the Awful Alfred, thinks that's the plan.  @formergothardite, have you seen this? 

 http://www.discoveringgrace.com/2019/08/19/bill-and-the-board/#comment-31160

Much gratitude to dear Alfred for linking the IBLP by-laws.  And bless his little heart.

 

[formergothardite]

32 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I really don't think Gothard has appealed.  I think we would know if he had because Awful Alfred, Gothard's poodle at Discovering Grace would tell us.  But he is apparently now intending to sue the BoD of IBLP!  

At least, the Awful Alfred, thinks that's the plan.  @formergothardite, have you seen this? 

 http://www.discoveringgrace.com/2019/08/19/bill-and-the-board/#comment-31160

Much gratitude to dear Alfred for linking the IBLP by-laws.  And bless his little heart.

I had not. Alfred is truly insane and evidence that die-hard Gothard followers can dress in normal clothing. 

Gothard seems super angry that he lost the IBLP money and the lifestyle it afforded him. 

 

[carmenp97]

11 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

there were at least two instances in that AMA where a person commented about recognizing/remembering Jays_Motorcycle from an earlier site where they had supposedly read her writings or interacted.  Something called Serial?

I’m not good at Reddit, at all. The format annoys me. However, I read through the entire AMA and it seemed to me that the reference was to the podcast “Serial”: https://serialpodcast.org. Maybe the poster was a frequent commentator on the Reddit for the podcast? I know there was a huge following after the first season, with people doing Independent investigations on the case.

Edited December 21, 2019 by nelliebelle1197
Fixed quotes

[bal maiden]

 

18 minutes ago, carmenp97 said:

I’m not good at Reddit, at all. The format annoys me. However, I read through the entire AMA and it seemed to me that the reference was to the podcast “Serial”: https://serialpodcast.org. Maybe the poster was a frequent commentator on the Reddit for the podcast? I know there was a huge following after the first season, with people doing Independent investigations on the case.

 

Yeah the username 'Jay's motorcycle' is a reference to that case/podcast. 

[Rachel333]

So I was inclined to think fake at first, but I think she might be basically telling the truth about her past in ATI and just be speculating about a lot of stuff that other commenters are taking as more informed than it really is. She does say pretty often that she thinks [wild claim], so she's not actually directly claiming to have a lot of inside info as a lot of fakers do. The claims about Pa Keller are presented as speculation, not fact, for example, and I noticed that she doesn't claim she knew all about what Josh did before it came out publicly, like several other people I'm pretty sure were fakers had claimed.

I don't agree with her at all about mainstream media and Trump supporters, but that's a pretty commonly expressed opinion so nothing about that in particular makes me think she's faking.

To be clear, I don't believe her speculation -- the stuff about Pa Keller is ridiculous -- but I'm more inclined to think this is someone overindulging in speculation rather than outright faking.

18 hours ago, singsingsing said:

There was recently a post on another popular subreddit (r/relationships possibly?) from the perspective of a young women from a fundamentalist family who was a lesbian and being forced into a marriage with a man. For the record, the entire post seemed totally fake to me, but it was an extremely popular post.

Okay, I'm glad you said that because that post seemed super fake to me, but I was afraid to say something because so many people seemed so touched by it.

I also thought it was funny how people were telling her to delete the comment about how she was part of Assemblies of God lest the church find out who she is and come after her. I think a lot of people were under the impression that it was a small cult rather than a huge, fairly mainstream denomination. There are plenty of extremists in it to be sure, but it's not a Duggar-level kind of fundie group.

[Eponine]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

There are plenty of better sources for what actually went on in IBLP under Gothard and too many factual errors in this particular AMA to take it seriously. 

And I don't think Jay is credible or informed about how ATI maintains (or fails to maintain) its influence and power.  They may have personal experience of ATI.  Or they may have cobbled together this story from many different sources,including RG and FJ!  It has happened before.

Completely agree! I think it's interesting to read accounts like this but do not take them seriously in terms of facts. The poster clearly has some kind of ax to grind and has lots of inaccuracies. Like I said, I do think she has personal experience with it so rather than looking at her posts in terms of "is this true or not true?" my interest is more, "why is she presenting it this way?" Why does she feel like this is true, or why does she want other people to think it's true?

The answer might just be attention or sympathy. It might be that she simply wants to demonize the group or people in it. It might be that her experience there and coming out of it makes her genuinely believe all the frankly unbelievable things she's saying. Or possibly she's just read about it a lot and wants to try any way to bring them down, I have no idea. But if she is someone who has lived it and if she does believe (most of/some of) what she's saying I would be very curious to know why.

We have enough real info from other sources about how ATI/IBLP works. I'm wondering what the goal is with the AMA, I guess. I didn't really think about truth vs lies while reading it because it's so heavily filtered through one individual's perspective and agenda that I think we have to assume it's not factually reliable.

I don't have any real evidence for this, but with all the really out-there claims and discussion about going to the media with her story, I wonder if this is a kind of test for a book, article series, podcast, or something like that. Like maybe she's putting out feelers to see how her story would be received.

Incidentally, does anyone know how Reddit mods verify users?

[Beermeet]

Jay had mentioned in answering that she couldn't say anything else out of fear. Fear of "blowing " her case or something along those lines.  I think it was regarding the Pa Keller stuff or some of the more sordid stories/theories she had to say.  I mean, what?  Why an AMA on freaking Reddit?  Why mention any of that at all if she truly has evidence of this kind of evil?  AMA's are weird. I only recently started reading Reddit. I've read a bunch of AMA's on varous topics and they are pretty lame, imo. Except the porn star ones.  Hold on to your butts!  Those were real.  Makes sense though, if the world can see you on tape like that, than, why lie?  Don't judge me, I have problems sleeping sometimes!  

Anyway, this AMA does seem like *feeler* kinda thing to me too.  How much attention, how it will be received, how far can they go.....

The speculation was stated as that.  However,  in the opening introduction it was clearly stated Jay didn't know the Duggars or Kellers much so, why is Jay mostly talking ( speculating) on them?  With outrageous content even?  I smell BS. She's getting something unhealthy from this.  Man, the internet is a strange place.  This is good practice for smelling BS though. I'm into tells and honing that skill. Hence the reading of AMA's and body language videos I watch. Fascinating really. 

[llucie]

1 hour ago, Eponine said:

 

Incidentally, does anyone know how Reddit mods verify users?

If its in  r/AMA i know the moderators ask proof from the person that they are who they claim to be. But no idea if moderators at r/duggarsnark would follow the same standards. Its posible that they do and she send them some pictures of the ATI materials she mentioned having in her house and that was enough proof for them (BTW why would she have kept the homeschool material with her when she run out of her house, and so many years while being homeless too...the more i think of it the more incongruences i find) or you know maybe she is really who she claims to be and proved it with photos to the mods. I think its posible that she was in fact in the cult but she is still exagerating/embellishing the story.

Edited December 20, 2019 by llucie
to add

[adidas]

27 minutes ago, llucie said:

I think its posible that she was in fact in the cult but she is still exagerating/embellishing the story.

I’m wavering between this and ‘nope, it’s a scam’.

The links she gives to ATI and IBLP resources have been on imgur for a very long time, but she is not claiming to have uploaded them herself. My point is, I’ve seen those pictures many times before and could give the link to anyone, so it is not proof that she was in the cult.

I’ve read through her posts again and noticed a couple of discrepancies with some details ... but they’re not major things. She might just be changing details so that she is not easily identifiable. Or she might be totally making it all up and had a slip up.

Let’s be frank here. She says herself that being in the cult messed her up and that she has ongoing PTSD and psychological issues. So I’m not armchair psychologising when I say that if her story is true, it is not surprising that it’s coming off as hinky - she’s clearly not a reliable narrator. But is that because she is fibbing, or is it because her history has left things a bit muddled for her?

I dunno.

[Marmion]

1 hour ago, llucie said:

If its in  r/AMA i know the moderators ask proof from the person that they are who they claim to be. But no idea if moderators at r/duggarsnark would follow the same standards. Its posible that they do and she send them some pictures of the ATI materials she mentioned having in her house and that was enough proof for them (BTW why would she have kept the homeschool material with her when she run out of her house, and so many years while being homeless too...the more i think of it the more incongruences i find) or you know maybe she is really who she claims to be and proved it with photos to the mods. I think its posible that she was in fact in the cult but she is still exagerating/embellishing the story.

From this discription , I would be inclined to suspect that she is either basing her story off of that of a woman named Brooke Arnold , seen in the  interview here , or else actually is this person .  

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Marmion

[Beermeet]

@Marmion  Holy crap!  Good find my friend.  Homelessness for 7 years, college, emphasis on grooming and wisdom booklets.  It could be her. But, why be anonymous if she had done this?  Why not link this into the AMA?  Stolen content???   Whoa dude. 

[Marmion]

8 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

@Marmion  Holy crap!  Good find my friend.  Homelessness for 7 years, college, emphasis on grooming and wisdom booklets.  It could be her. But, why be anonymous if she had done this?  Why not link this into the AMA?  Stolen content???   Whoa dude. 

If I were to guess , I would bet that the person in the AMA simply looked up every reference to the IBLP she , or he , could find , to try to concoct  a convincing story of having been a survivor .  I mean Brooke Arnold is a fairly well known  , and outspoken walkaway from the IBLP .  And in addition to the video I had linked above , she's also featured in this BuzzFeed video , so she's fairly publically well known .  

I don't know why a public figure such as she would choose to anonymously post on reddit .  And if some other person has had the exact same experience as her life story , it would be quite the coincidence , I would think .  

[Beermeet]

Yes, a quick Google search and I found a lot of Brooke. She's a comedian and does not seem like Jay in personality.  No hubris with the natural intelligence. Jay pulled a lot from her. No way Brooke did that AMA. I'm listening to this podcast now.  Thank you for finding this!  Idk what Jay's endgame is but it's really weird.  Like, guys! All hands on deck!  This is wild. 

https://riyl.podbean.com/e/episode-154-brooke-arnold/

Eta: as I listen more to this podcast, she does say she felt intellectually superior to the other ATI kids and judged them but as she got older she felt horrible for thinking that and isn't proud of that. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Beermeet

[pook]

1 hour ago, Marmion said:

From this discription , I would be inclined to suspect that she is either basing her story off of that of a woman named Brooke , seen interviews here , or else is actually this person .  

 

I have finished watching the video and read the entire Reddit thread pretty much in real time.  Much of the narrative JM provides in her answers on the Reddit thread is almost word for word as far as what Brooke discusses here.   Homeless for 7 years, arranged marriage with a really ugly guy, ATI as Gothard's sexual grooming machine etc.  I am inclined to truly think that Brooke is JM on Reddit trying to drum up notoriety and promote herself for some reason.  Brooke speaks well but JM writes VERY well.  Some people are just like that.  The website she provides at the end of this video I will have to watch.  

Edited December 21, 2019 by pook
edit to add that I will check out some of the stuff that was posted before I hit post. I am not unwavering in my position.