AMA with former ATI member

[bal maiden]

I was definitely taking the Pa Keller speculation with a pinch of salt. And mentally queried the writing style for someone who was apparently woefully under educated. But for now I'll trust Reddit's mods, I suppose.

[singsingsing]

So, like...

-every single family she knows or knows of in IBLP experienced familial sexual abuse

-multiple members of a church are in jail for child porn (? am I remembering this claim right?)

-Pa Keller somehow has major dirt on all the big families and also is maybe running a male sex trafficking ring

-Gothard knew exactly which girls had and had not been sexually abused

-there are multiple murderers! involved in IBLP

Anything else?

[quiversR4hunting]

2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Gothard knew exactly which girls had and had not been sexually abused

Out of your list, this is the only one that seems reasonable because (IIRC) Gothard would have people confess things to him. So if a family member confessed to committing the sexual abuse, then Gothard would probably ask who, etc. Of all the cults I have read about it is a common tactic to tell on others which of course leads to the leader knowing a lot of dirt on everyone involved. 

[Jasmar]

Yeah, I agree. I remember reading accounts on Recovering Grace that said he did exactly that. That’s the one thing I can believe for sure.

As for some of those more spectacular claims, why didn’t any of those surface on Recovering Grace, in any of the dozens of stories?

Edited December 19, 2019 by Jasmar
Stupid autocorrect

[Palimpsest]

8 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Out of your list, this is the only one that seems reasonable because (IIRC) Gothard would have people confess things to him. So if a family member confessed to committing the sexual abuse, then Gothard would probably ask who, etc. Of all the cults I have read about it is a common tactic to tell on others which of course leads to the leader knowing a lot of dirt on everyone involved. 

Yes.  In the allegations against Gothard in the lawsuit, it was clear that Gothard especially preyed on girls who were sent to HQ to be "helped" after having been sexually abused in their homes.   

I'd trust the accuracy, consistency, and veracity of the Plaintiffs from RG over this particular dramatic AMA.  

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Palimpsest

[AmazonGrace]

Quote

 

So, say you're sexually abused by a family member. If it's your father, you've been taught that he is the only person who can commiuncate and learned that your mother is supposed to submit to him sexually always. What do you do? If by some miracle you still recognize it as abuse, you'd get Gothard's handy "Counseling Sexual Abuse" teaching. It can be seen here: https://imgur.com/a/iTKKCmI

I think it speaks for itself.

Every single parent who uses the ATI curriculum has seen these in the Wisdom Booklets and has still chosen them to be their children's entire education. They've stayed with it after sexual abuse occurred in their own home. They've stayed with it after the author of the curriculum was outed as five-decade long sexual predator. They're all currently financially profiting off of it.

 

Every single parent has stayed after sexual abuse occurred in their own home? Every single parent who bought the curriculum profits off it? how? 

I just don't see how this works out. Somebody has to pay for it in order for anybody to profit off it. 

[Giraffe]

1 minute ago, Palimpsest said:

I'd trust the accuracy, consistency, and veracity of the Plaintiffs from RG over this particular dramatic AMA.  

 

I second this. So far I haven’t seen anything other than what can be cobbled together from a variety of sites.

[singsingsing]

I was skeptical of the idea that Gothard knew exactly which girls had and had not been sexually abused, but the claim that he only targeted girls he knew for sure had been abused is very believable, yeah.

But again, if there was abuse in every family, wouldn’t that end up being most of them?

[Palimpsest]

3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

the claim that he only targeted girls he knew for sure had been abused is very believable, yeah.

Minor correction, the claim that he especially targeted vulnerable, troubled, unlikely to be believed, and previously sexually abused girls.  I wouldn't say "only."  He definitely had a physical type that he targeted for his unwelcome attentions, but he seems to have honed his skills in targeting the most vulnerable over the years.  

18 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Every single parent has stayed after sexual abuse occurred in their own home? Every single parent who bought the curriculum profits off it how? 

I just don't see how this works out. Somebody has to pay for it in order for anybody to profit off it. 

You skeptic, you!

And every single parent who bought the ATI curriculum used it as the "entire education?"  Nah, a lot of IBLP types supplemented ATI and the Wisdom Booklets with other "Christian" homeschooling materials.

Perhaps this person is just rather prone to hyperbole but it weakens the narrative.

[AmazonGrace]

Yeah... I suppose a  person could be a legitimate cult survivor and yet make a number of uncritical claims and unfounded allegations. 

8 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

 

Perhaps this person is just rather prone to hyperbole but it weakens the narrative.

 

[Flyinthesoup]

49 minutes ago, thoughtful said:

She may have lost me at The Vasectomy Reversal Choir.

If Steve Maxwell is reading reddit, though, I bet he just slapped his forehead like the people in the old V8 ads.

I remember seeing a video clip of this, years and years ago, but I think it was called, "Reversal Choir".  I do not think it was vasectomy as women were having reversals, too....unless perhaps it got nick named that.  I just Googled my words and a link came up from an old blog from 2004 , he refers to it as the, "Baby Reversal Choir".  Apparently the choir sent a letter to headquarters, unhappy with how they have been treated....interesting!  For me, when I saw that video clip and heard the name, I was embarrassed for children in the choir and amazed at how many children were in it.

[formergothardite]

56 minutes ago, thoughtful said:

She may have lost me at The Vasectomy Reversal Choir.

If Steve Maxwell is reading reddit, though, I bet he just slapped his forehead like the people in the old V8 ads.

That was a real thing, though.  It was as weird as you imagine it to be. 

Here is one of the old x-ATI guy posts that mentions it. 

http://xatiguy.blogspot.com/2004/10/reversal-baby-choir-revolts.html

I really don't believe the stuff about the Kellers or that there is an IBLP church with 8 members who murdered people. 

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

I also wonder why an "IBLP church" that has eight (8) members serving time for child abuse and child pornography escaped all media attention.  If nothing else, people like the Wartburg Watch folk tend to keep an eye out for that sort of thing.

 

[Flyinthesoup]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Bu The police report on Josh did not mention digital penetration ...

But I just skimmed the AMA.

And nope.  I also wonder why an "IBLP church" that has eight (8) members serving time for child abuse and child pornography escaped all media attention.  If nothing else, people like the Wartburg Watch folk tend to keep an eye out for that sort of thing.

I'm glad you mentioned this.  That first one caught my eye, too, as I do not remember that in the police report, either.

IBLP Church?  What exactly is that?  Is that a group of home churches that all be long to IBLP?  I do not ever remember hearing of an officially organized IBLP church.

[AmazonGrace]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

She claimed that Andrea and Rusty Yates were IBLP, maybe that’s who she’s talking about?

But ‘quite a few’ is a pretty big claim, and the whole ‘mainstream media is too self-absorbed to make the connections’ thing sounds like pure conspiracy.

I'd think a religious cult that breeds murderers would be a pretty good scoop so if I was a self-absorbed journalist I would definitely want to dig it up if I got a hunch. 

[Flyinthesoup]

5 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

That was a real thing, though.  It was as weird as you imagine it to be. 

Here is one of the old x-ATI guy posts that mentions it. 

http://xatiguy.blogspot.com/2004/10/reversal-baby-choir-revolts.html

I really don't believe the stuff about the Kellers or that there is an IBLP church with 8 members who murdered people. 

 

That's the same blog post I linked to!   Sorry, I hid the link in my words.  Yours is easier to find. ?

[AmazonGrace]

This is giving me ideas. How about Happy Accident basketball team? Broken Condom Soccer? Planned Baby cheerleaders? 

[Flyinthesoup]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Yes.  In the allegations against Gothard in the lawsuit, it was clear that Gothard especially preyed on girls who were sent to HQ to be "helped" after having been sexually abused in their homes.   

I'd trust the accuracy, consistency, and veracity of the Plaintiffs from RG over this particular dramatic AMA.  

 

There was an application that all the families had to fill out, before they could be accepted into the program.  I read it, all those years ago,  given to me by a friend.  I was unsure of what was 'hear say' and what was factual.  I can't remember any questions regarding sexual abuse, BUT it might have been on there, or on a follow up questionnaire/phone call pending the answers to the original application.  There were many questions on that application I found invasive and unnecessary.  My friend explained it to me as a "need to know" in the event the family was having difficulties, they could pull their application and know why things might not be very good in the home and offer them counsel.  

[singsingsing]

53 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Minor correction, the claim that he especially targeted vulnerable, troubled, unlikely to be believed, and previously sexually abused girls.  I wouldn't say "only."  He definitely had a physical type that he targeted for his unwelcome attentions, but he seems to have honed his skills in targeting the most vulnerable over the years.  

That’s what I always assumed, which is why I was skeptical when the AMA author claimed he only targeted girls who he knew had been sexually abused (unless she didn’t claim that and I’m remembering wrong)!

[Flyinthesoup]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

She claimed that Andrea and Rusty Yates were IBLP, maybe that’s who she’s talking about?

But ‘quite a few’ is a pretty big claim, and the whole ‘mainstream media is too self-absorbed to make the connections’ thing sounds like pure conspiracy.

I am working my way through the Reddit and I'm getting closer to the end.  Without digging back through the thread, did she say the murder thing was about people well known?  I am asking because I do remember my friend (former ATI member) sharing a story where someone she knew, who had been courting a young man, wanted it called off.  It was called off.  The fellow went on to court someone else, marry her, then in a few short years, took her out hiking where he killed her.  I do not believe that was a 'famously' known person.  But, I am wondering, if there is more of this 'wife killing/abuse' that was being referred to, or was it famous people...without sending you back to have to read it?  Count me in the skeptical camp, just for reference, even though it's appearing I am bringing up supporting information.?

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

That was a real thing, though.  It was as weird as you imagine it to be. 

Here is one of the old x-ATI guy posts that mentions it. 

http://xatiguy.blogspot.com/2004/10/reversal-baby-choir-revolts.html

I really don't believe the stuff about the Kellers or that there is an IBLP church with 8 members who murdered people. 

See my dirty mind immediately went to "and do they all sing falsetto or do they recover their tenor, baritone, and bass voices after the reversal?"  Poor choir.  How humiliating.  So the line-up of the Maxwell Reversals at the Bont-Max wedding was not unprecedented.

And no, they claim that at their IBLP church 8 members are serving time for child abuse and child porn convictions.  I don't find that unlikely.  At all.

I do find it unlikely that this nest of convicted felons at an IBLP church didn't get any media coverage.

And apparently there are also many murderers who are IBLP members around.  We just can't figure out who the heck they are.  Convicted extreme Fundamentalist murderers, yeah.  I can name quite a few.  I can't think of any that were specifically Gothardite though.   Perhaps this person believes that all Fundies are Gothardite.

35 minutes ago, Flyinthesoup said:

Count me in the skeptical camp, just for reference, even though it's appearing I am bringing up supporting information.?

Hey, come over here and and sit by me.  I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt but am skeptical too.   I've seen too many fake insiders over the years.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Coconut Flan]

The more I read the more I feel a Razing Ruth at the laptop.  This all fits her MO superbly well.  

[adidas]

The AMA isn’t sitting well with me. Things aren’t adding up but I don’t want to be a mean girl today so I’ll park my thoughts for a couple of hours. But those whose spidey senses are tingling are definitely not alone.

[AliceInFundyland]

The "idea" that ol' Pa Keller is using his prison ministry to keep TFDW secretly supplied with a stable of young men is certainly the best thing I've read today.

?

I don't have to examine the rest of the thread now. Thanks.

[Giraffe]

Is there more room at the skeptics table? I’ll bring chocolate!

[RosyDaisy]

Hmmm...I don't know what to believe.  Most of the stuff about the Duggars and Bates I can believe.  Gothard molesting teen girls I can believe.  The rest...not so sure.