Strange Story From RC Sproul

[debrand]

Because of his daughter's visit, I've been looking up RC Sproul Jr online. I came across an article he wrote about education. At the end he tells this story:

Our headlines, instead, should be about stories such as this. Several years ago I took three of my children to the grocery store: Campbell, then six, Shannon , four, and Delaney, three. Not only do I have a pattern of taking our children with me, but we also have a pattern for how we go through the store. We begin with fruits and vegetables, and then finish at the bakery section. At our local store, the good folks behind the bakery counter give away cookies to little children. This too is a part of our pattern. Delaney, with a year’s experience of going shopping with Daddy, hadn’t quite learned all the habits. So every week she had to ask, “Can we get a cookie, Daddy?†She worries unduly, because her daddy is so cheap that it doesn’t matter if we have stopped at the grocery on the way home from a tour of the candy factory. The cookies are free, so the answer is always “Yes.â€

The lady behind the counter gave Campbell his cookie and Delaney hers. I did not get one for Shannon , for though she likes cookies, she isn’t yet adept at eating them. (My daughter Shannon is mentally retarded, with the mental ability of an 18-month-old. ) I realized at this point that I had forgotten piecrusts for my wife (who is probably socking me in the arm right now for letting you know she doesn’t make her own crusts - though she does make our bread, oatmeal, granola, etc.), so I left the children and the buggy to fetch some. As I headed back, I caught my son. He did not know I was watching. As far as he knew, no one was watching him. But I saw him do it. He broke off a piece of his cookie and fed it to his little sister Shannon. He didn’t do this so I would one day write about him. He didn’t do this because Shannon would praise him. He did not do it for the applause of men. He did it because God has worked in his heart, because his mother is an outstanding homeschooling mom, teaching him well. That is the heart of the matter; that is what we ought to be celebrating.

I'm not certain why the little girl couldn't eat a cookie. Perhaps she would make a big mess? But it seems very cruel to allow her siblings to eat cookies in front of her.

And leaving children that young alone while you run to a different part of the store get pie is dangerous and stupid. He didn't write why he didn't take the children with him. The oldest was only six years old and he wrote one of the children was on the mental level of an 18 month old child.

http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thre ... 39&posts=1

[Austin]

Maybe the little guy just felt sorry for his sister, who got no cookie.

An eighteen-month old can eat a cookie, so maybe there was some physical limitation he's not revealing here? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

[debrand]

I've found more information on his daughter.

generationcedar.com/main/2010/07/children-with-disabilities-perfect-for-us.html

At The Baby Conference, R.C. Sproul, Jr. shared a raw and heartfelt message about his little girl who has “smooth brainâ€. She is 13, wears diapers, must be fed and needs help walking. She also has violent seizures.

Paraphrasing his story:

“Her nickname is ‘Princess Happy’, because her smile is so big when I go to her bed each morning, that her eyes are nearly shut. I reach down and scoop that baby up in my arms. “Daddy made you pancakes, Shannon.“ I remember Jesus’ words…â€I was hungry and you fed me…inasmuch as you did it unto the least of these, you did it unto Me.â€

I look at Shannon again and I can’t believe the God of the universe would give me this opportunity to minister to Him…every day. That he would tell us ‘Unless you become like little children, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven’, and here, Shannon is so innocent–she is my spiritual better, constantly showing me so much about the Kingdom. I beg the Lord, “Please, please don’t take her.â€

[browngrl]

So what if his daughter makes a mess while eating? That is why wonderful things like soap and towels or wipes were invented. I hope that no one ever withholds food from him should he ever have a stroke or develop a disability.

[Austin]

I'm assuming that the point of his point, in his mind at least, was that the little guy giving his sister a piece of his cookie was proof positive of God's work on the child's heart. The generosity and empathy he demonstrated are fine things, but lots of kids who were not steeped in fundie-ism day in and day out would give a piece of their cookie to a sibling, atypical or not. I'm sure the children of many pagans would share their cookies.

ETA: This constant drumbeat that only fundies are good and kind and empathetic is really, really annoying. Legends in their own minds.

[debrand]

I'm assuming that the point of his point, in his mind at least, was that the little guy giving his sister a piece of his cookie was proof positive of God's work on the child's heart. The generosity and empathy he demonstrated are fine things, but lots of kids who were not steeped in fundie-ism day in and day out would give a piece of their cookie to a sibling, atypical or not. I'm sure the children of many pagans would share their cookies.

ETA: This constant drumbeat that only fundies are good and kind and empathetic is really, really annoying. Legends in their own minds.

The story comes at the end of a long article in which he states that the goal of education should be to create good Christians not just future Rhodes Scholars. He was using the story to illustrate how God works on the heart of a child.

The story still left me wondering why he let the two siblings eat a cookie in front of their sister. Or why he left them alone while he ran for a piecrust. I don't doubt that he was only gone a minute but apparently, one child has such severe problems that eating a cookie is difficult for her. It seems unwise to leave her, even for a very short time, under the care of a six year old. Why not take the kids and buggy with him?

[ladypuglover]

I'm assuming that the point of his point, in his mind at least, was that the little guy giving his sister a piece of his cookie was proof positive of God's work on the child's heart. The generosity and empathy he demonstrated are fine things, but lots of kids who were not steeped in fundie-ism day in and day out would give a piece of their cookie to a sibling, atypical or not. I'm sure the children of many pagans would share their cookies.

ETA: This constant drumbeat that only fundies are good and kind and empathetic is really, really annoying. Legends in their own minds.

I have a thousand and one stories of my older sons feeding their younger brothers food when they shouldn't have. Not many newborns want or need to eat a piece of spaghetti but 1 year olds don't think of that. They can't, all they think is this new person might like this yummy food as much as I do. they didn't do it because I was and am Christian or because God told them to, but because they all were babies and learning to share.

Also, some of my babies/toddlers were very messy eaters and that never stopped me from allowing a free cookie. A ever handy bib and always presant wipes took care of any free sample messes. Happy babies, happy mommy made for a lot of fun outings/shopping trips. Sheesh. :roll:

[Want More Babies]

I will add this about RC Jr. He is the one who isn't really concerned when a 9 year old girl can't read. The last few sentences shows us how he really feels about women.

The mother made a confession to me. She told me, “You know, my nine-year-old daughter doesn’t know how to read.†Now here is a good test to see how much baggage you are carrying around. Does that make you uncomfortable? Are you thinking, “Mercy, what would the school superintendent say if he knew?†My response was a cautious, “Really?†But my friend went on to explain, “She doesn’t know how to read, but every morning she gets up and gets ready for the day. Then takes care of her three youngest siblings. She takes them to the potty, she cleans and dresses them, makes their breakfasts, brushes their teeth, clears their dishes, and makes their beds.†Now I saw her rightly, as an overachiever. If she didn’t know how to read, but did know all the Looney Tunes characters, that would be a problem. But here is a young girl being trained to be a keeper at home. Do I want her to read? Of course I do, as does her mother. I want her to read to equip her to learn the Three Gs. [From earlier in the book, he notes the "Three Gs": Who is God? What has God done? What does God require?] But this little girl was learning what God requires, to be a help in the family business, with a focus on tending the garden.

I’m not suggesting that the goal is to have ignorant daughters. I am, however, arguing that we are to train them to be keepers at home. These two are not equivalent. Though we aren’t given many details we know that both Priscilla and Aquila had a part in the education of Apollos. I’m impressed with Priscilla, as I am with my own wife. She is rather theologically astute... My point is that that brilliance isn’t what validates her as a person. It’s a good thing, a glorious thing, and an appropriate thing. But it’s like the general principle we’ve already covered. Would I rather be married to a godly woman who was comparatively ignorant, or a wicked person who was terribly bright? Who would make a better wife and mother, someone who doesn’t know infra- from supralapsarianism, but does know which side is up on a diaper, or a woman about to defend her dissertation on the eschatology of John Gill at Cambridge but one who thinks children are unpleasant? It’s no contest, is it? Naturally we want everything. We want all the virtues to the highest degree. But virtues come in different shades and colors in different circumstances.

This was taken from undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2009/02/rc-sproul-jrs-take-on-multigenerational.html

Edited for spelling*

[keen23]

I have a thousand and one stories of my older sons feeding their younger brothers food when they shouldn't have. Not many newborns want or need to eat a piece of spaghetti but 1 year olds don't think of that. They can't, all they think is this new person might like this yummy food as much as I do. they didn't do it because I was and am Christian or because God told them to, but because they all were babies and learning to share.

Also, some of my babies/toddlers were very messy eaters and that never stopped me from allowing a free cookie. A ever handy bib and always presant wipes took care of any free sample messes. Happy babies, happy mommy made for a lot of fun outings/shopping trips. Sheesh. :roll:

My kids too. I came across my older two "feeding" their youngest sister at around 3 months old. They were letting her take licks of the spoons that they were using to eat peanut butter out of a jar. They had climbed into her crib, with her, to do this. Because she was crying, and I was in the shower, so the baby must have been hungry and they were taking care of her. "But she likes it!" was a common argument given whenever I told them "don't feed the baby!"

[emmiedahl]

My now-4-yo daughter was given a chip with guacamole within minutes of coming home from the birthing center. I removed it from her mouth immediately, but we always point to that as the source of her love of spicy foods.

[debrand]

WantsMoreBabies, I remember reading that quote but I didn't realize it was from Sproul. There are not two extremes, a well educated woman who hates children or an ignorant woman who loves babies and god. Thankfully, there is a middle ground. People can attend college, hold jobs and still love their children.

My heart not only breaks for that nine year old but I'm angered at the mindset that would think that it isn't important to educate a young girl. It is just more proof that he doesn't value women.

[Koala]

Perhaps the nine year old can't read because she is too busy doing the job that her mother should be doing. I am so tired of fundies holding the SAHM gig on such a pedestal when the truth is, they don't want to do it themselves. Hence the invention of the SAHD.

I am a sahm because that is what I love. I don't expect my daughter to want to be a sahm. She might be, but she might not...it's totally up to her. Either way, I would never in a million years expect her to sit around all day cleaning my house and raising babies for me. NEVER. She's a child, and her job is to get an education and enjoy being a child.

As for the sharing? Both of my kids are Atheist and (total brag ahead) they are the most generous people I know. Honestly, they are 100 times more generous than I am, and it's not because of god or me. It's because they are genuinely good people and they care about others. End of story. I can't count the times I have seen them insist that if they were getting something, that the other had to get something as well. I have many stories of catching my son try to feed his sister when she was a baby, because he thought it wasn't fair that she couldn't eat fun toddler cookies like he could.

There are good people out there, and they don't need god to be good.

[emmiedahl]

That is child slavery. There is no other way of putting it. As a minister, is he not a mandated reporter? It is neglect to put your child to work as an unpaid nanny to the detriment of her education and he should have reported it to CPS. Child labor laws are in place for a reason; children need to be playing and learning.

I know some "better late than early" people in the homeschooling community, but this is just plain abuse.

[Cordial]

Well, Sproul did write this recently:

There have always been men who thought Jesus was coming back on a particular day. There have always been men who believed it quite okay to divorce a wife suffering from Alzheimer’s. There have always been pastors who believe that abortion is an option for moms of conjoined twins. There have always been men who believe hell is virtually empty. There have always been men who believe that women should only teach other women about how to love their husbands to be keepers at home. The difference now is that these wrong ideas at least have the potential to reach a world-wide audience. The difference is that the world can then mull over, chew on, and write about the bad ideas others have brought to the watching world.

Like everyone else when Pat Robertson’s abysmal and unbiblical counsel to a husband whose wife suffered from Alzheimer’s hit the news I felt the temptation to jump in. There was blood in the water, and I was just fool enough to confuse my shark instincts with a passion to defend the holiness of marriage. I managed to just take a nibble, confining my comments to a single tweet. I managed to steer clear of Chuck Smith’s abysmal and unbiblical counsel to the young mom carrying conjoined twins. Harold Camping faced my pen, though in a more meta way as I sought to make a subtle point about the difference between false prophecy and bad exegesis. Rob Bell likewise provoked my pen.

That guy who once wrote that women shouldn’t be teaching each other theology, well, that was me. Happily I did respond to that abysmal and unbiblical advice that I gave, confessing (eventually) that I had been wrong. My confession of my error, however, had about one tenth the reach of my mistake. “I was wrong†pieces just don’t have all the appeal of actually being train-wreck wrong.

And his eldest daughter is attending the "college" where he teaches. So perhaps he really has changed his tune when it comes to how much education women are entitled to.

I'm not sure.

[Mommy22alyns]

WantsMoreBabies, I remember reading that quote but I didn't realize it was from Sproul. There are not two extremes, a well educated woman who hates children or an ignorant woman who loves babies and god. Thankfully, there is a middle ground. People can attend college, hold jobs and still love their children.

My heart not only breaks for that nine year old but I'm angered at the mindset that would think that it isn't important to educate a young girl. It is just more proof that he doesn't value women.

Well said. I can't imagine putting all that work on my (not quite) 9 yo.

[debrand]

Well, Sproul did write this recently:

And his eldest daughter is attending the "college" where he teaches. So perhaps he really has changed his tune when it comes to how much education women are entitled to.

I'm not sure.

So, now he thinks that women can teach one another theology? Or does he think that women can teach people regardless of the sex of the student?

I'm not certain what to make of his statement about not being train wreck wrong.

[hoipolloi]

And his eldest daughter is attending the "college" where he teaches. So perhaps he really has changed his tune when it comes to how much education women are entitled to.

No, this is just another chorus of the lullaby Sproul & other fundies sing to their sheeple all the time: "Do as we say and not as we do."

[Cordial]

I think he probably does mean simply that it's ok for women to pursue some intellectual rigor when it comes to theology, and that there's nothing wrong for them to share it with other women. I'd venture to guess it's still not OK for them to teach men. I don't think he's made a huge shift, at all, but I've wondered recently if his (articulate, clearly bright) daughter Darby approaching adulthood may have shifted his opinion of what a young woman's options ought to be.

I mean, Reformation Bible College is what it is (ol' R.C. himself founded it, very recently, if I understand correctly). I'm not pretending these young women are getting a well-rounded education of any sort. But I do think that he probably recognizes that his kid is capable of something more intellectually demanding than lifelong prairie muffin status, and I wonder if that is changing his view of things at all. He made RBC coed, ya know?

[treemom]

I'm assuming that the point of his point, in his mind at least, was that the little guy giving his sister a piece of his cookie was proof positive of God's work on the child's heart. The generosity and empathy he demonstrated are fine things, but lots of kids who were not steeped in fundie-ism day in and day out would give a piece of their cookie to a sibling, atypical or not. I'm sure the children of many pagans would share their cookies.

ETA: This constant drumbeat that only fundies are good and kind and empathetic is really, really annoying. Legends in their own minds.

My son would have given her part of his cookie, even if she wasnt his sister and even though he is the child of unbelievers. I would say most kids would actually.

[Kitchen Princess]

Maybe he means she is not adept at eating cookies, as in properly chewing and swallowing them, and it poses a choking hazard.

The way he wrote about her softens my opinion of him. I had a fundie xtian friend who had a daughter with profound CP, whom he loved dearly and spoke poetically about. I adored him because of it.

[Deleted12]

The other day I was at teh sandwich shop, and there was a dude there, I would guess he was 19, and he was in a wheelchair and had to be fed. He was talking to his clerk, and he said that he knew a guy who was quadriplegic, and he felt so sorry for the guy.

This young man's compassion for others really moved me.

Sproul's? Notsomuch.

[Linnea]

The mother made a confession to me. She told me, “You know, my nine-year-old daughter doesn’t know how to read.†Now here is a good test to see how much baggage you are carrying around. Does that make you uncomfortable? Are you thinking, “Mercy, what would the school superintendent say if he knew?†My response was a cautious, “Really?†But my friend went on to explain, “She doesn’t know how to read, but every morning she gets up and gets ready for the day. Then takes care of her three youngest siblings. She takes them to the potty, she cleans and dresses them, makes their breakfasts, brushes their teeth, clears their dishes, and makes their beds.†Now I saw her rightly, as an overachiever. If she didn’t know how to read, but did know all the Looney Tunes characters, that would be a problem. But here is a young girl being trained to be a keeper at home.

What I want to know is, how would he feel about a nine-year-old boy who couldn't read, but could . . . I don't know. Climb trees? Engage in heroic pretend swordplay? Order his sisters around? What is it that boys in these families are responsible for doing, anyway?