Changing fundie culture

[JermajestyDuggar]

I was looking at Instagram and it seems that the majority of fundies have Christmas trees. I feel like they used to be shunned more by fundies in the past. I also feel like fundies have more screen time now than they used to. I’m not talking about phone or computer screens. I’m talking actual tv shows and movies. I know tv used to be a big no no for a lot of fundies but now that you can watch tv without watching commercials, I think a lot of them are giving in. I think they are also changing from “standing out” to “blending in.” It’s harder to spot a fundie these days. Agree or disagree?

What are your overall impressions of changing fundie culture based off of the fundies we talk about a lot on FJ? 

[hoipolloi]

The fall of VF and the Tool precipitated a lot of change for their various leghumpers. Hard to know if that change was already occurring or if the end of VF was a giant wake-up call for people. My bet is on it being a wake-up call, especially since many of Phillips' unindicted co-conspirators, like Voddie Baucham or Scott Brown, remained conspicuously silent in the aftermath.

Re: Christmas trees. Doug Phillips frequently inveighed against celebrating Christmas and made a big deal about the Phillips family not doing so. Of course, he (and Be-all) had no problem making big bank on selling VF's crap for other people's Christmas celebrations. Various of his leghumpers emulated this stance, deeming it evidence of the purity of their reformed beliefs. Another holiday that many former VF-ers have been embracing is Halloween. They're not even pretending it's the bogus-ass thing they once called "Reformation Day" -- they & their kids are dressing in costumes & consuming the candy.

Looking at photos of VF & NCFIC "conferences" from Doug's Blog and other sources from about 10 years, the matching frumpers that were commonly seen on young women and girls have largely vanished back into ultra-cultish circles like FLDS. The dominant vibe now, especially for young female fundies, seems to be hipster, and not an excessively modest hipster look, either.  IMO, one would be hard put to identify many of these young fundies as such from sight alone. The loathsome beliefs -- like the "Southern Heritage" or the S'Mortons picketing Planned Parenthood -- are still there but less obvious if all you see are some of their general photos.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Holidays are a good example of the “cultural change.” My original post didn’t mention change in core religious beliefs because I don’t think there’s been much change there. But I think the culture is what has changed the most. So the way they dress, the way they celebrate holidays, the way they use social media, the movies and tv shows they watch are all a part of that. There are fundie kids who love to watch shows like paw patrol or PJ Masks when that would be unheard of 15 years ago. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I will say that I feel like the long denim skirt is the new frumpers. Long denim skirts are not really stylish anymore. Short denim skirts are. But the long ones are so heavy. Even the ones that go right past your knee can seem heavy. So when I see someone in a long denim skirt, I do think there is a good chance they are fundie. But like you said, they are dressing more mainstream now. The biggest sign on social media that someone is fundie is the constant god talk. Fundies can’t stop talking about their religion. 

[Marmion]

On 12/5/2019 at 3:38 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

. I also feel like fundies have more screen time now than they used to. I’m not talking about phone or computer screens. I’m talking actual tv shows and movies. I know tv used to be a big no no for a lot of fundies but now that you can watch tv without watching commercials, I think a lot of them are giving in

It used to be , back in the first decades of the 20th century , that Holiness / fundamentalist churches , such as the Church of God , Anderson , Ind .   , wouldn't permit such " worldly amusements " as television , any more than they'd allow their members to frequent movie theaters .  But now of days , especially with all of the evangelical programming , and media being produced , it's not as strictly banned .  After all , television is necessary to watch DVDs , which such fundies use to self indoctrinate , at home .  And also , in an effort to better engage the culture , and be contemporaneously relevant , it would seem that the only subset of fundamentalists that would hold to outward holiness standards , to varying degrees , such as with regard to " sanctified appearance "  would be the Conservative Holiness movement .  Besides them most every other type of Christian fundamentalist will be fashionable .  I think that their teen girls in particular will tend to take style cues from such Christian Contemporary girl bands as Point of Grace , or Zoe Girl , for example .  Back when I was in the Nazarene church , in the youth group meeting room , there were pictures of them that were displayed like religious icons . 

[DomWackTroll]

Hmm, what have we here?

https://www.facebook.com/lisacsproul/photos/a.237022683639951/429288424413375/?type=3&theater

And I'm just trying to imagine this saucy ensemble topped with a headcovering-- which Lisa insists she wears every time they "worship with the saints." 

https://www.facebook.com/lisacsproul/photos/a.237022683639951/435395470469337/?type=3&theater

 

[Cleopatra7]

I think that sedevacantism is becoming more and more the default in the Catholic traditionalist community, because of their collective hatred of Pope Francis. If some communities in Protestant fundamentalism are becoming slightly more modern in certain aspects, trads are going the other direction by becoming more insular and conformist. Trads are also adopting some of the worst aspects of Protestant fundamentalism. Skirts only has been a thing for a while (often called Theology of the Skirt) and homeschooling as well, but now courtship is a big thing too:

https://catholicism.org/courtship-the-chaste-preparation-for-holy-matrimony.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tradcatfem.com/2017/07/27/stages-of-traditional-catholic-courtship/amp/

https://heroicvirtuecreations.com/catholic-courtship-and-my-marriage-discernment/

Trad courtship seems very similar to the ones we discuss here, where the couple is not supposed to be alone and PDA is a “scandal.” Other than having megafamilies, I’m not sure how this subculture is going to grow, since there’s no tolerance for any kind of difference.

[JermajestyDuggar]

49 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

Hmm, what have we here?

https://www.facebook.com/lisacsproul/photos/a.237022683639951/429288424413375/?type=3&theater

And I'm just trying to imagine this saucy ensemble topped with a headcovering-- which Lisa insists she wears every time they "worship with the saints." 

https://www.facebook.com/lisacsproul/photos/a.237022683639951/435395470469337/?type=3&theater

 

That Christmas picture with a big ass tree, stockings, and movie night is so not fundie. Who are those stockings for? Not Santa! They may as well be for Satan! And movie night? My oh my. How times change.

[DomWackTroll]

In fairness to Spanky, it does seem that dear ol' Dad enjoyed celebrating Christmas, and encouraged other Christians to do the same, so perhaps I am off base on this one.  

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/marley-and-his-message-scrooge/

I wonder if Doug Phillips and Spanks ever discussed this. 

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

In fairness to Spanky, it does seem that dear ol' Dad enjoyed celebrating Christmas, and encouraged other Christians to do the same, so perhaps I am off base on this one.  

Wow, that's actually well written & fairly rational. Wonder when it was published in Tabletalk.

Quote

And so we rain on Jesus’ parade and assume an Olympian detachment from the joyous holiday. All this carping is but a modern dose of Scroogeism, our own sanctimonious profanation of the holy.

The above quote seems to take direct aim at asshats like Doug Phillips and his holier-than-thou buddies who scorned the observance of traditional holidays.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I admit that stockings are the funniest one to me. The only reason for stockings is for Santa. And all fundies seem to be completely against Santa. So why the stockings? I saw Erin Paine had stockings up. How does she explain the reasoning behind hanging them? She could just avoid the stockings and put gifts under the tree from mommy and daddy. 

[formergothardite]

39 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The only reason for stockings is for Santa.

We were never anti-Santa, but we always knew our parents bought gifts. But stockings were for little fun gifts and candy. I've never heard that the only reason for stockings is Santa. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

We were never anti-Santa, but we always knew our parents bought gifts. But stockings were for little fun gifts and candy. I've never heard that the only reason for stockings is Santa. 

It’s the history behind stockings is almost always attributed to St Nicholas. Of course it’s evolved over the years and I have nothing against it. It’s a pretty secular things to do nowadays. But fundies are big on history so you would think they would recognize the fact that hanging stockings has nothing to do with Jesus. They are all about putting Christ back in Christmas. But then they do things that have nothing to do with Jesus. 

[AridityOfHeaven]

In my experience, I've seen this shift in my little corner of the world. I live in a rural smallish town in Texas, and in the last 3 or so years, the Pentecostal church I attended went from long maxi skirts and denim skirts to much shorter length with leggings. 

For years, Pentecostal women were easily identified by top knots, no makeup, long jean skirts, a certain style shirt, and tennis shoes or walking style shoe. Now they look a lot different with make up, hair down, shorter dresses and skirts with leggings, and sometimes kids and teen girls in shorts and jeans.

Most people in the church have a TV in their home, and have been known to go to movies such as God is Not Dead. The older they are, the less likely but the younger 30-40 crowd definitely looks different. Not sure how much different they actually are from the older crowd as far as beliefs but they do look more blended in.

[Giraffe]

Stockings are for the goodies we were allowed to open while our parents slept in. ?

[Howl]

19 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

And I'm just trying to imagine this saucy ensemble topped with a headcovering-- which Lisa insists she wears every time they "worship with the saints." 

Yeah, well. 

And these guys are worse than Beall for hastags:  #husbandandwife #husband #marriage #marriedlife #lovelovelove #loveislove #loveyou #loved #lovestory #lovely #loveofmylife #marriage #marriagegoals

[EmmieJ]

1 hour ago, Giraffe said:

Stockings are for the goodies we were allowed to open while our parents slept in. ?

Yes, but we were told that Santa filled our stockings.  Obviously, at some point (by age 6 or 7?), we knew our parents filled the stockings and my dad quietly tiptoed in after we were asleep to leave them on our beds.  After we were older, our stockings were left down in the living room and we always thanked "Santa" for the little gifts inside.  Now, I wrap up 2 or 3 things for my sister back east and mail them to her to put in her stocking.

I think younger fundies are definitely dressing more mainstream.

Edited December 7, 2019 by EmmieJ

[JermajestyDuggar]

We weren’t even allowed to go downstairs to LOOK at the presents on Christmas morning until 7am and our parents had to be with us. We had so many Christmas morning rules!

[luv2laugh]

I think social media caused fundie culture to change because it led to more conformity. The more fundies joined Facebook and Instagram, the more they were exposed to how their friends were changing.

Edited December 8, 2019 by luv2laugh

[Jasmar]

4 hours ago, Howl said:

Yeah, well. 

And these guys are worse than Beall for hastags:  #husbandandwife #husband #marriage #marriedlife #lovelovelove #loveislove #loveyou #loved #lovestory #lovely #loveofmylife #marriage #marriagegoals

Love is love? WTH does that even mean?

The fundie families I knew/sort of knew who used to be more restrictive of things like dress, media usage, holidays, etc. have largely loosened up a lot in the last 5ish years, coinciding with the rise of hipster evangelicals.

Aside from possibly courtship details, no main beliefs have changed, just to be clear. No one is suddenly more accepting, tolerant of LGBTQ+, less “pro-life,” egalitarian… In fact, they have become more politically involved and conservative since 45.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Jasmar
Clarification

[Perrierwithlemon]

@JermajestyDuggar Thank you for starting this thread! It's a good to address and keep track of these things! Here are all the swaps I can think of:

• jean skirts > frumpers
• girls doing makeup > girls sewing their clothes
• perm hair > heat, blow-out style hair (probably due to tv influence)
• sister-mom/buddy system > paid for tutoring
• writing books about how others should live > youtube videos and social media platforms
• "buy used, save the difference" > buy fast fashion or partner with clothing brands
•  courting > "dating"
•  loose, curve-hiding clothes > as long as the neckline is high enough, it doesn't matter how form-fitting it is, especially during pregnancy photoshoots

Overall, the direction many younger fundie women are going looks an awful lot like the Mormon bloggers that are everywhere. Just google "why so many fashion bloggers are Mormon" to see pages of articles on this topic. 

Quote

"When you come from a patriarchal religion, your best bet for gaining power is to be appealing to the men in charge. It can be very hard for women who are outside of normative standards of beauty. In my religion you're not just talking about having to look good now... You're also talking about your eternal salvation. Ultimately these beauty standards are connected to what gets us into heaven." - Alice Gregory, Why So Many of Your Favorite Beauty Personalities are Mormon, by Courtney Kendrick, allure.com 

Although Christians have a different beliefs regarding salvation (thank God, otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian), I can't help but see some parallels between these modern-modest-Mormon bloggers and many Christian fundies. Perhaps it's the patriarchal culture or their attempt adapt to modern culture because of social media? 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Inone of Jed’s pictures, you can see a Christmas tree in the background. I was thinking the Duggars weren’t big into Christmas trees. They were always talking about focusing on Christ during Christmas. I remember them decorating the house with wreaths, ribbons, and garland. I guess I just don’t remember them always having a tree. Have they always had a tree and I don’t remember? Or is this a recent change?

[Coconut Flan]

They've been having trees for a few years now.

[Giraffe]

All they’ve done is apply lipstick to a pig. “See? We’re not like we used to be; we’re better!” All the while none of their beliefs - the ones that impact & condemn others - have changed. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Giraffe
Tweaking wording

[luv2laugh]

Fundies don’t look different from everyday people. In fact, because many fundies don’t work, they sit around on Pinterest and put more effort into DIY feminine beauty than most. Many of them are blue jean pants-wearing and blonde dyed hair fundies.

To fundies, the stereotypical MLM mother with the most Instagram followers is the Queen It girl. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by luv2laugh