Josiah and Lauren 16: Just Another Young Fundie Couple

[wastingcandles]

14 minutes ago, ModestisHottest said:

I think something important to remember here is that ALL speakers of English (but also probably speakers of every language) have shortcuts or ways to make words easier to say in quick, fluent speech.  For example, if you listen you'll probably notice that you often drop the k in "asked" when you are using the word quickly in a sentence i.e. "I asked Sam if he's coming" becomes "I assed Sam if he's coming."  Similarly, I know I almost never hear people pronounce the "i" in "family." Usually, when it's used in a sentence people just say "famly." So then we have to ask ourselves, why are these shortcuts ok but ones like "libarry" and "axe" are not?  These two examples specifically are strongly associated with African American Vernacular English (consciously or not on the part of the hearer) and so, because of systemic racism, are stigmatized while "famly" or "assed" aren't.  I am 100% not saying this to judge you in anyway.  I had NO IDEA about any of this for a long time.  We are often totally unaware of ways the racism in the culture has seeped into our brains and I'm sure I have a ways to go in many areas. 

Well said! Additionally, dialects like AAE are just as rule governed as Standard American English, Southern American English, etc. While these differences can seem to be due to laziness, there actually specific rules that create these language forms. Double negatives, habitual be (I be working) and others are great examples of these.

[feministxtian]

10 minutes ago, wastingcandles said:

Well said! Additionally, dialects like AAE are just as rule governed as Standard American English, Southern American English, etc. While these differences can seem to be due to laziness, there actually specific rules that create these language forms. Double negatives, habitual be (I be working) and others are great examples of these.

There seems to be an inborn prejudice against AAE and southerners because we don't speak "proper" English. We're looked upon as hicks, dumb as hell, incapable of speaking "proper" English. 

There was someone here who went on a rant about not pronouncing the "g" in "ing" word endings. Well, I highly advise watching the YouTube video of the Apollo 13 accident. Gene Kranz, who was flight director at the time says something to the effect of "let's not make things worse by guessin". John Young, quite probably the most intelligent astronaut and engineer EVER, spoke with an "aw shucks" southern accent. I can name more...how you speak has absolutely no correlation to intelligence. 

I'm sick of the prejudice against how one speaks. Get the fuck over it. 

[Glasgowghirl]

39 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

There seems to be an inborn prejudice against AAE and southerners because we don't speak "proper" English. We're looked upon as hicks, dumb as hell, incapable of speaking "proper" English. 

There was someone here who went on a rant about not pronouncing the "g" in "ing" word endings. Well, I highly advise watching the YouTube video of the Apollo 13 accident. Gene Kranz, who was flight director at the time says something to the effect of "let's not make things worse by guessin". John Young, quite probably the most intelligent astronaut and engineer EVER, spoke with an "aw shucks" southern accent. I can name more...how you speak has absolutely no correlation to intelligence. 

I'm sick of the prejudice against how one speaks. Get the fuck over it. 

This also happens here to an extent with people with some dialiects. As a Scot I do try to limit use of certain words when around people from other parts the UK but also I think that people shouldn't look down on others if they do use those words, many originated from Scots, which is a language in it's own right. 

[Antipatriarch]

1 hour ago, ModestisHottest said:

I think something important to remember here is that ALL speakers of English (but also probably speakers of every language) have shortcuts or ways to make words easier to say in quick, fluent speech.

This. And as you say, some of it is speed, but some of it is cultural (including the cultures of peoples of color), etc.

People learning a new language have to learn all those shortcuts. My favorite example in English is "I am going to" -> "I'm going to" -> "I'm gonna" -> "I'monna" -> "I'ma". Only someone striving for formal elocution is going to be up near the beginning of that list.

[feministxtian]

9 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

This also happens here to an extent with people with some dialiects. As a Scot I do try to limit use of certain words when around people from other parts the UK but also I think that people shouldn't look down on others if they do use those words, many originated from Scots, which is a language in it's own right. 

The southern part of the US has retained much of the Scots and Irish influence from the early days of the colonies. There are places like Guinea in Gloucester County VA that has a dialect that is almost impossible to understand. So does Tangier Island in the Chesapeake Bay. People in the "hollers" of western VA and WVA can be right difficult to understand also. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

People learning a new language have to learn all those shortcuts. My favorite example in English is "I am going to" -> "I'm going to" -> "I'm gonna" -> "I'monna" -> "I'ma". Only someone striving for formal elocution is going to be up near the beginning of that list.

This is a great example of switching between registers.  

Casual / informal is great but it is important for people to also know how to speak more formally lest it hold them back professionally.  

Being well spoken is a huge boost professionally; not being able to pull it out when you need it can harm how you're perceived in many environments.  I am grateful my parents insisted on the importance of being well spoken to us and I carried that on to my kids.  I think we do them a disservice to not give them the tools they need to communicate appropriately depending on the environment and their audience.

[kmachete14]

@HerNameIsBuffy It's called "code-switching" and is sort of like knowing two languages. I'd also add that the pronunciation of words (like "axe") isn't really in the same league as using double negatives incorrectly -- one is just your accent and one is using a different dialect. 

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, wastingcandles said:

Well said! Additionally, dialects like AAE are just as rule governed as Standard American English, Southern American English, etc. While these differences can seem to be due to laziness, there actually specific rules that create these language forms. Double negatives, habitual be (I be working) and others are great examples of these.

This is so important!  My father was a proud member of the grammar police and it drove him crazy when people didn't speak and write "properly."  I was the same way until I learned a bit about linguistics. Languages inevitably evolve and change; there are no set rules handed down from God for all time. And they change in predictable ways that follow linguistic patterns.

Also every language is composed of a group of dialects, and one of those dialects (usually the one used by those with the most power) was/is imposed on everyone else as "proper" speech.  In English, it went even further. The people who wrote our grammar rules decided to apply Latin grammar rules to English, since Latin was a "superior" language.  The only reason you're not supposed to split an infinitive in English (the most famous example: "to boldly go where no one has gone before") is that you simply can't do it in Latin (or in any language that has one-word infinitives). 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

18 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

@HerNameIsBuffy It's called "code-switching" and is sort of like knowing two languages. I'd also add that the pronunciation of words (like "axe") isn't really in the same league as using double negatives incorrectly -- one is just your accent and one is using a different dialect. 

Yes, code switching.  It's an incredibly important skill.

[wastingcandles]

1 hour ago, kmachete14 said:

@HerNameIsBuffy It's called "code-switching" and is sort of like knowing two languages. I'd also add that the pronunciation of words (like "axe") isn't really in the same league as using double negatives incorrectly -- one is just your accent and one is using a different dialect. 

From my perspective they go together, since when working with kids who speak AAE I have to be aware of their entire dialect (which includes their accent). The focus is on the fact that both their pronunciation of "ask" and their use of double negatives is not part of an articulation or language disorder, so they both go together in my SLP brain.  Though I think I get what you mean!

[Perrierwithlemon]

2 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

The people who wrote our grammar rules decided to apply Latin grammar rules to English, since Latin was a "superior" language.  The only reason you're not supposed to split an infinitive in English (the most famous example: "to boldly go where no one has gone before") is that you simply can't do it in Latin (or in any language that has one-word infinitives). 

Oooh, cool! I love it when I learn something about English grammar that I don't know! Thanks! 

Another example of a Latin grammar rule imposed on English is the whole "don't end a sentence with a preposition" thing. It works in Latin because if they needed to use a preposition that wasn't part of a prepositional phrase, they'd just add the preposition to the front of the verb. There were a LOT of verbs in both Latin and Ancient Greek where they would tack on a preposition in front: e.g., ab-sum (be away), in-venio (come upon), δια-λέγομαι (converse, talk with), etc. (I only added the dashes to show the prepositions.) We still see this with Latin prefixes in English words (i.e., pro- and sub-). Latin and Ancient Greek had very similar grammatic structure and grammar rules -- they didn't even have much punctuation. Modern English is different in so many ways! Aaaaaannnnnd I need to stop before I write a book on comparative grammar lol.

[Vivi_music]

7 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

This also happens here to an extent with people with some dialiects. As a Scot I do try to limit use of certain words when around people from other parts the UK but also I think that people shouldn't look down on others if they do use those words, many originated from Scots, which is a language in it's own right. 

French people from France do the same. They snob the rest of the French-speaking world. For example: on French News channel, they'd put subtitles on news reports from French-speaking African countries (which was perfectly understandable).

They also look down on us French-Canadians all the time for our expressions, words and pronunciations. I remember being laughed at sometimes when living in French (in one particular situation, the irony was that I used a REAL french word, but in France they usually use an anglicism instead i.e a word borrowed from English. I was literally laughed at for speaking French. Non mais franchement!)

Mr. Music is French and now lives here in Canada. He is certainly able to understand our expressions and words. A lot of French people simply don't want to make the effort.

Languages snobbism really annoys me... to no end.

[LifeIsStrange]

I love listening to different dialects and accents. I’m fortunate to live in a place where I get to hear different forms of speech from all over the world! It gives people and the regions they come from character.

I don’t like rigidness. Once I’m aware that someone doesn’t like my speech, I go quiet. It’s not pleasant to know that the way I speak gets on someone’s nerves even if I’m respectful and polite. I guess I wasn’t meant to get to know them or for them to get to know me. 

 

 

[apandaaries]

10 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

The unconscious racism is an serious issues, as is the ability to switch between registers which is class based, rather than based on race or ethnic group.

People who are clearly capable of speaking in more formal registers get a pass for the casual register or gramtically incorrect colloquialisms because it's seen as a code choice.  When people are limited to more casual registers that's where a harmful bias comes in.

I agree, but I also think forcing people to code switch has its own serious issues. It enforces a serious and problematic hierarchy in this country (and others). If the orange menace can torture the English language the way he does and earn respect, can we not extend an ear to people with good ideas but a different dialect? 
I am a recovering grammar Nazi, several generations in, who’s had many years of linguistics classes.

Languages change over time and distance. Forefolk (gender neutral ?) who had several terms for different types of snow may not have those words in their descendants’ vocabularies, if they’ve relocated and no longer see those differences. The opposite is true, as well, for non-snow-related terms.

A true linguist’s saying is, “a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.” Basically, that any dialect works, so long as the meaning and content is communicated. But class and hierarchy  and power create a “higher” level of “distinguished” language.

A lot of dialects exist in opposition to this power structure. “Pidgin” languages and African American Vernacular Dialect are not necessarily supposed to be recognized by the upper echelons. Same as Chicano English. Same with working class British. The working class had a way to communicate in front of others which wouldn’t bring them harm (see: the “Becky” phenomenon Beyoncé unleashed — side note: my phone added the accent mark. It knows).

”Axe” or the zero copula in the “to be” verbs have grammatical rules in AAVE. Chicano English also has its own rules. And then of course, we have the prestige language, the Queen’s English (American style), which wins accolades and raises.

But it’s worth noting that all these dialects have their own rich histories. Zora Neale Hurston chose to write to preserve the language she knew and loved. Similarly, some people are dying on hills about ending sentences in prepositions or the proper use of who v. whom. 
There’s no way to extricate these distinctions from class hierarchy. One is rewarded, and one reprimanded. It’s really worth putting aside preconceived prejudices to examine the contents of the words, not their precise grammatical structure according to the prevailing hierarchy.

ETA: thanks for coming to my TED talk.

ETA, Part 2: George Bernard Shaw’s Pygmalion! Class distinctions revealed via dialect have been alive a very long time. Shakespeare’s characters show class differentiations, 

too. But I will stop now. I promise.

Edited February 7, 2020 by apandaaries
Clarifications and fucking typos.

[squiddysquid]

I'm not a native speaker and I've been called out for small mistakes to the point where somebody felt the need to ridicule me and add a meme for emphasis.

I guess mostly because they didn't agree with my opinion in that post, but people around here can be dicks like that here - being fully aware that it's not your native language, usually when they can't come up with a decent counter argument.

[feministxtian]

Well, I guess I really am multi-lingual. I speak Tidewater English, Philadelphia English, Spanglish and Spanish. I don't have problems with AAE either. So I guess I'm a linguistic nightmare y'all (it drives me NUTS when people can't spell y'all right)

[ModestisHottest]

8 hours ago, apandaaries said:

I agree, but I also think forcing people to code switch has its own serious issues. It enforces a serious and problematic hierarchy in this country (and others). If the orange menace can torture the English language the way he does and earn respect, can we not extend an ear to people with good ideas but a different dialect? 
I am a recovering grammar Nazi, several generations in, who’s had many years of linguistics classes.

Languages change over time and distance. Forefolk (gender neutral ?) who had several terms for different types of snow may not have those words in their descendants’ vocabularies, if they’ve relocated and no longer see those differences. The opposite is true, as well, for non-snow-related terms.

A true linguist’s saying is, “a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.” Basically, that any dialect works, so long as the meaning and content is communicated. But class and hierarchy  and power create a “higher” level of “distinguished” language.

A lot of dialects exist in opposition to this power structure. “Pidgin” languages and African American Vernacular Dialect are not necessarily supposed to be recognized by the upper echelons. Same as Chicano English. Same with working class British. The working class had a way to communicate in front of others which wouldn’t bring them harm (see: the “Becky” phenomenon Beyoncé unleashed — side note: my phone added the accent mark. It knows).

”Axe” or the zero copula in the “to be” verbs have grammatical rules in AAVE. Chicano English also has its own rules. And then of course, we have the prestige language, the Queen’s English (American style), which wins accolades and raises.

But it’s worth noting that all these dialects have their own rich histories. Zora Neale Hurston chose to write to preserve the language she knew and loved. Similarly, some people are dying on hills about ending sentences in prepositions or the proper use of who v. whom. 
There’s no way to extricate these distinctions from class hierarchy. One is rewarded, and one reprimanded. It’s really worth putting aside preconceived prejudices to examine the contents of the words, not their precise grammatical structure according to the prevailing hierarchy.

ETA: thanks for coming to my TED talk.

ETA, Part 2: George Bernard Shaw’s Pygmalion! Class distinctions revealed via dialect have been alive a very long time. Shakespeare’s characters show class differentiations, 

too. But I will stop now. I promise.

100% agree. Before I decided to stay home when I had a baby I taught English Lit for 8 years where basically all of my students were either non-native speakers of English or native speakers of AAVE.  I struggled all the time with the balance of wanting my students to be able to speak the "language of power" (i.e. "standard" American English) and not wanting to teach them that the way they spoke was "bad" or "less than" (especially since I'm white and a native speaker of "standard" English.)  

[apandaaries]

5 hours ago, ModestisHottest said:

100% agree. Before I decided to stay home when I had a baby I taught English Lit for 8 years where basically all of my students were either non-native speakers of English or native speakers of AAVE.  I struggled all the time with the balance of wanting my students to be able to speak the "language of power" (i.e. "standard" American English) and not wanting to teach them that the way they spoke was "bad" or "less than" (especially since I'm white and a native speaker of "standard" English.)  

The national council for the teachers of English (NCTE) had an official statement in the 70s about a student’s right to their own language. Since all dialects have their own rules, it was a way to acknowledge and affirm that their home language was valid. But also, most English teachers are of course encouraged to aid students in acquiring the prestige language. 
 

Spoiler

I usually tell students that we’re working on academic English, which is more formal and structured than verbal English, anyway.

bell hooks actually encourages her students to write however they want for the first draft, in whatever language or dialect, then focus on moving into academic English. But she also cooks for and with her students, a level of dedication (and space) few can enjoy.

Edited February 7, 2020 by apandaaries

[HerNameIsBuffy]

13 hours ago, apandaaries said:

I agree, but I also think forcing people to code switch has its own serious issues. It enforces a serious and problematic hierarchy in this country (and others). If the orange menace can torture the English language the way he does and earn respect, can we not extend an ear to people with good ideas but a different dialect? 
I am a recovering grammar Nazi, several generations in, who’s had many years of linguistics classes.

Languages change over time and distance. Forefolk (gender neutral ?) who had several terms for different types of snow may not have those words in their descendants’ vocabularies, if they’ve relocated and no longer see those differences. The opposite is true, as well, for non-snow-related terms.

A true linguist’s saying is, “a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.” Basically, that any dialect works, so long as the meaning and content is communicated. But class and hierarchy  and power create a “higher” level of “distinguished” language.

A lot of dialects exist in opposition to this power structure. “Pidgin” languages and African American Vernacular Dialect are not necessarily supposed to be recognized by the upper echelons. Same as Chicano English. Same with working class British. The working class had a way to communicate in front of others which wouldn’t bring them harm (see: the “Becky” phenomenon Beyoncé unleashed — side note: my phone added the accent mark. It knows).

”Axe” or the zero copula in the “to be” verbs have grammatical rules in AAVE. Chicano English also has its own rules. And then of course, we have the prestige language, the Queen’s English (American style), which wins accolades and raises.

But it’s worth noting that all these dialects have their own rich histories. Zora Neale Hurston chose to write to preserve the language she knew and loved. Similarly, some people are dying on hills about ending sentences in prepositions or the proper use of who v. whom. 
There’s no way to extricate these distinctions from class hierarchy. One is rewarded, and one reprimanded. It’s really worth putting aside preconceived prejudices to examine the contents of the words, not their precise grammatical structure according to the prevailing hierarchy.

ETA: thanks for coming to my TED talk.

ETA, Part 2: George Bernard Shaw’s Pygmalion! Class distinctions revealed via dialect have been alive a very long time. Shakespeare’s characters show class differentiations, 

too. But I will stop now. I promise.

I agree with much of what you said, and thanks for posting this as it's an interesting discussion.

In a perfect world all vernaculars with their own rules and structure would be seen as equally valid, but right now they aren't.  Not in the business world.  I'm not a teacher and don't envy those who have to walk the fine line between teaching standard English while not making the kids feel their own dialects are less than but it would be a huge disservice to kids to not give them the tools to succeed.  

And one of the tools people need to succeed today, even past the interview for many jobs, is being well spoken in standard English.  And while the roots are based on inequality, I can't blame a business for not wanting to risk losing customers due to the perception created if employees aren't communicating in what we, as a society, have determined is proper English.

We dress differently for work, for interviews, when making a first impression to a business contact...we are the same as we are in our track pants and comfy sweatshirts, but we understand that there are circumstances where we need to present ourselves differently and for me it's the same with language.

 

[Pecansforeveryone]

@HerNameIsBuffy, I know you just recently started posting in J-Rods threads. I recommend the Bro Gary Hawkins threads. His grasp of the English language is um "interesting." 

[apandaaries]

37 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree with much of what you said, and thanks for posting this as it's an interesting discussion.

In a perfect world all vernaculars with their own rules and structure would be seen as equally valid, but right now they aren't.  Not in the business world.  I'm not a teacher and don't envy those who have to walk the fine line between teaching standard English while not making the kids feel their own dialects are less than but it would be a huge disservice to kids to not give them the tools to succeed.  

And one of the tools people need to succeed today, even past the interview for many jobs, is being well spoken in standard English.  And while the roots are based on inequality, I can't blame a business for not wanting to risk losing customers due to the perception created if employees aren't communicating in what we, as a society, have determined is proper English.

We dress differently for work, for interviews, when making a first impression to a business contact...we are the same as we are in our track pants and comfy sweatshirts, but we understand that there are circumstances where we need to present ourselves differently and for me it's the same with language.

 

Part of what I’m hoping to add is that this structure has a long and biased history. Our society is racist and has been for a long time. What we’ve determined as “proper” English has structurally racist roots. It’s worth examining our own prejudices and preconceived notions regarding adherence to the “rules” of English.

The vast majority know enough to be able to code switch to some degree. But as we see with fundies, if there isn’t a fair amount of reading to accompany learning, people can and will make all kinds of gaffes. 
Last night I was thinking about how the prestige language in England used to be French, spoken by the court. 
Also how literacy tests used to be abused to keep Black people from voting. 
Or in Pygmalion, teaching a common girl to speak properly and present as a lady, according to those social rules.
Linguistic barriers have been the excuse for excluding a lot of people from a lot of places. 
Obviously our world is what it is, and teachers need to prepare students for that. But it’s not bad to affirm their home language either. 
Even white kids from middle class families have difficulties with formal English. One friend got a research paper from a student. His transition to his conclusion? “BOOM!” Seriously.

But if you remind students that they speak differently to their parents  v. their friends v. their teachers/coaches, they get it quickly. But literacy also has to accompany their endeavors, and literacy isn’t nearly as highly prized as it could or should be in this country.  It’s complicated.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

18 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

@HerNameIsBuffy, I know you just recently started posting in J-Rods threads. I recommend the Bro Gary Hawkins threads. His grasp of the English language is um "interesting." 

I tried reading one of his threads once but there was a pic of some gross weiner and bean based food stuff I couldn't even look at so I noped out!

15 minutes ago, apandaaries said:

Part of what I’m hoping to add is that this structure has a long and biased history. Our society is racist and has been for a long time. What we’ve determined as “proper” English has structurally racist roots. It’s worth examining our own prejudices and preconceived notions regarding adherence to the “rules” of English.

The vast majority know enough to be able to code switch to some degree. But as we see with fundies, if there isn’t a fair amount of reading to accompany learning, people can and will make all kinds of gaffes. 
Last night I was thinking about how the prestige language in England used to be French, spoken by the court. 
Also how literacy tests used to be abused to keep Black people from voting. 
Or in Pygmalion, teaching a common girl to speak properly and present as a lady, according to those social rules.
Linguistic barriers have been the excuse for excluding a lot of people from a lot of places. 
Obviously our world is what it is, and teachers need to prepare students for that. But it’s not bad to affirm their home language either. 
Even white kids from middle class families have difficulties with formal English. One friend got a research paper from a student. His transition to his conclusion? “BOOM!” Seriously.

But if you remind students that they speak differently to their parents  v. their friends v. their teachers/coaches, they get it quickly. But literacy also has to accompany their endeavors, and literacy isn’t nearly as highly prized as it could or should be in this country.  It’s complicated.

I agree with everything you've said here.  My point wasn't that it's okay to ignore the institutional racism and classism that is at the root of these issues, but that while we work to dismantle those issues we have to arm kids to compete in the world as it is now.  For their sake.

Edited February 7, 2020 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Giraffe]

Thanks to everyone who’s contributed to the linguistic conversation. It’s been eye opening for me!

[Antipatriarch]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I tried reading one of [the Bro Gary Hawkins] threads once but there was a pic of some gross weiner and bean based food stuff I couldn't even look at so I noped out!

Yeah, in those threads, his dialect has been dubbed "weenese".

[seraaa]

On 2/6/2020 at 7:34 PM, wastingcandles said:

Well said! Additionally, dialects like AAE are just as rule governed as Standard American English, Southern American English, etc. While these differences can seem to be due to laziness, there actually specific rules that create these language forms. Double negatives, habitual be (I be working) and others are great examples of these.

The habitual be is my favourite example of this! 

(That, and other things)