Duggar Business Investigated by Homeland Security 2

[JPatti]

Not to idly speculate...but...

I think it is most likely to be financial-type crimes and/or a bunch of Internet buzz over nothing.

I can't help but remember, though, that when JB and M discovered the inappropriate touching/sexual assaults that Josh committed, they took him to two men--Bill Gothard and then that later-arrested cop to "informally" confess/receive a "police" warning off the books--who were each later found to have very inappropriate to downright criminal sexual issues themselves.  That begs the question--did they make a bad situation worse and inadvertently expose their kid to really bad stuff?  I certainly hope not.  I suppose time will tell.

[47of74]

So here is hoping for financial shennigans that take this whole hateful family down once and for all.

 

After all it wasn’t murder charges that took Capone down but tax evasion. Hoping for something similar here. Of course the Jeeezus fan club members will probably say the evil liberals got them all while ignoring crimes JB and crew may have committed.

[Flyinthesoup]

35 minutes ago, JPatti said:

Not to idly speculate...but...

I think it is most likely to be financial-type crimes and/or a bunch of Internet buzz over nothing.

I can't help but remember, though, that when JB and M discovered the inappropriate touching/sexual assaults that Josh committed, they took him to two men--Bill Gothard and then that later-arrested cop to "informally" confess/receive a "police" warning off the books--who were each later found to have very inappropriate to downright criminal sexual issues themselves.  That begs the question--did they make a bad situation worse and inadvertently expose their kid to really bad stuff?  I certainly hope not.  I suppose time will tell.

To the bolded, are you sure he took him to Gothard?  My understanding was he was first taken to one, or maybe two elders of their 'church', but I don't recall Gothard, that would be interesting to know.  He did get sent to do work for Gothard, but I never heard about a consultation with Gothard.

I am also thinking this is financial, but with this family, anything is possible.

[Meggo]

14 hours ago, usmcmom said:

Thank you for the explanation. I probably should stop watching Law & Order reruns. 

BLASPHEMY!

Law & Order is the best! doink doink.

[JPatti]

22 minutes ago, Flyinthesoup said:

To the bolded, are you sure he took him to Gothard?  My understanding was he was first taken to one, or maybe two elders of their 'church', but I don't recall Gothard, that would be interesting to know.  He did get sent to do work for Gothard, but I never heard about a consultation with Gothard.

I am also thinking this is financial, but with this family, anything is possible.

Perhaps I'm wrong and that's wall it was--just doing work for Gothard.  I assumed he must have had some contact with the man himself, but that's all it is on my end--an assumption. 

It's been a couple years since I read the Josh Duggar body of research from 2015, lol. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by JPatti

[theotherelise]

After the first molestation incidents in 2002, Josh was punished in the home and the Duggars do not appear to have told anyone.

After the second round of incidents in 2003, Jim Bob consulted with the elders of their church and decided to send Josh to the home of a friend who ran a home remodeling business for 4 months as a type of hard-labor Jesus camp.

When he returned (still in 2003), Jim Bob and some elders took Josh to see friend/acquaintance and Arkansas State Trooper Jim Hutchens. Hutchens did not file a police report on the admitted behaviors which were still within the statute of limitations. This was a scared straight conversation.

In the time since the molestations became public, Hutchens was sentenced to 56 years in prison for child pornography.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that all the older children have met Bill Gothard based on how much the Duggars shilled for IBLP/ATI. But Josh did not get sent away to one of those programs or even an actual program at all after the second round of molestations occurred.

[Iamtheway]

It seems like waiting to arrest someone suspected for such a horrible crime would basically just give them the chance to kill themselves before they have to go to jail. 

I doubt it’s true. And I really hope I’m right this time! I don’t want any more children suffering because of Josh. 

[quiversR4hunting]

34 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

I think it's fairly safe to assume that all the older children have met Bill Gothard based on how much the Duggars shilled for IBLP/ATI. But Josh did not get sent away to one of those programs or even an actual program at all after the second round of molestations occurred.

Like this - Jinger, Jana, Jessa, Jill, Bill, unknown to me, Priscilla. Someone correct me if I don't have names right. This picture was 9 years ago (see copyright in the lower right corner)

 

[Flyinthesoup]

1 hour ago, JPatti said:

Perhaps I'm wrong and that's wall it was--just doing work for Gothard.  I assumed he must have had some contact with the man himself, but that's all it is on my end--an assumption. 

It's been a couple years since I read the Josh Duggar body of research from 2015, lol. 

 

43 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

After the first molestation incidents in 2002, Josh was punished in the home and the Duggars do not appear to have told anyone.

After the second round of incidents in 2003, Jim Bob consulted with the elders of their church and decided to send Josh to the home of a friend who ran a home remodeling business for 4 months as a type of hard-labor Jesus camp.

When he returned (still in 2003), Jim Bob and some elders took Josh to see friend/acquaintance and Arkansas State Trooper Jim Hutchens. Hutchens did not file a police report on the admitted behaviors which were still within the statute of limitations. This was a scared straight conversation.

In the time since the molestations became public, Hutchens was sentenced to 56 years in prison for child pornography.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that all the older children have met Bill Gothard based on how much the Duggars shilled for IBLP/ATI. But Josh did not get sent away to one of those programs or even an actual program at all after the second round of molestations occurred.

This is what I remember, too.  However, I have not read the report for a few years, so I would definitely have to go back and look closely, but I'm not sure I want to stomach all that again.

[BernRul]

So this is where my autistic brain just doesn't function like most people's, because I do NOT understand why people keep saying I don't want it to be child abuse.

Whatever happened in the past, already happened. There's nothing we can do to change it and our wishing certainly doesn't impact it. 

What I hope is that the truth comes out, whatever it is, even if it is sad and uncomfortable. Because once the truth is out, and if it's bad, the people involved can be stopped from ever doing it again. That's what's important. If it is child abuse (not saying it is) than real justice will happen so they can't hurt anyone again. If it's taxes, then then won't cheat the govt out of money again. If it's the fake ministry, then that gets shut down. 

I just want real justice this time, whatever it is.

[FighterJet]

1 minute ago, BernRul said:

So this is where my autistic brain just doesn't function like most people's, because I do NOT understand why people keep saying I don't want it to be child abuse.

Whatever happened in the past, already happened. There's nothing we can do to change it and our wishing certainly doesn't impact it. 

What I hope is that the truth comes out, whatever it is, even if it is sad and uncomfortable. Because once the truth is out, and if it's bad, the people involved can be stopped from ever doing it again. That's what's important. If it is child abuse (not saying it is) than real justice will happen so they can't hurt anyone again. If it's taxes, then then won't cheat the govt out of money again. If it's the fake ministry, then that gets shut down. 

I just want real justice this time, whatever it is.

People are wishing against child abuse because it definitely ranks higher on the gravity scale than... anything else, frankly. You could argue that tax evasion could potentially have more far-fetching effects on a community at large, but few things compare to the depravity it takes to personally hurt children and make money out of it. 

It's true that rationally speaking, there's lots of illicit profit being made worldwide from child abuse, so if at least some culprits were caught, that would mean less children being abused in the future and victims being freed. However, catching culprits in a supposedly low-risk area would also mean that the phenomenon was more widespread and normalized than anticipated, which is never a good thing, socially speaking.

Add in the fact that the Duggars are constantly surrounded by young children (potential preys) and that they're public figures, constantly exposing audiences to their ways, and you'll get why people are wishing against the problem being child abuse.  

[Coco]

5 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

It should have ended everything, but think it had the opposite effect.  After pulling in ratings and garnering even more attention by milking the victims' pain, TLC scrubbed Josh from the new show, and diminished the roles of those still living in the tinker toy house.  Courtings, marriages, and babies have kept it all going. I remain convinced that much of this was pushed by Jim Bob in conjunction with TLC.   Shrewd bastards, the lot of them.

Maybe if there are crimes against customers of the car lots and those crimes involve Duggars other than Josh, things will change.  Allow your son to get away with molesting your daughters?  Well, that was a long time ago. Jesus has forgiven them.  Cheat the good people of Northwest Arkansas?  Off with their heads!

Are you saying this could all be a ratings grab; TLC willing to let the rumor mill chew up a tangential bad behavior by people enough removed from them? After following this all week I haven't seen any pics or hard evidence of anything other than the SDC trip. Of course I wouldn't put it past TLC to not give two craps about any political fallout or effect on fundie world domination plans ? Maybe they're just trying to push up their year end numbers while everyone's off work for the holidays sitting around bored. 

[BernRul]

1 minute ago, FighterJet said:

People are wishing against child abuse because it definitely ranks higher on the gravity scale than... anything else, frankly. You could argue that tax evasion could potentially have more far-fetching effects on a community at large, but few things compare to the depravity it takes to personally hurt children and make money out of it. 

It's true that rationally speaking, there's lots of illicit profit being made worldwide from child abuse, so if at least some culprits were caught, that would mean less children being abused in the future and victims being freed. However, catching culprits in a supposedly low-risk area would also mean that the phenomenon was more widespread and normalized than anticipated, which is never a good thing, socially speaking.

Add in the fact that the Duggars are constantly surrounded by young children (potential preys) and that they're public figures, constantly exposing audiences to their ways, and you'll get why people are wishing against the problem being child abuse.  

No, I still don't.

I understand that child sexual abuse is just about the worst thing there is. I'm not stupid. That's not what I said at all.

What I'm saying is our wishing does not control what any Duggar has done in the past. If they were investigated for child abuse, than that happened in the past. We can't change it. All we can change is what happens in the future--getting justice.

Children are abused wide scale. That is already a fact, even if people don't want to accept it. Just this week, my student decided to transtition into a boy because she was sexually abused as a girl. It's not a good thing socially speaking, but it still happens. I'd rather the world face it than continue to sweep it under the rug. 

I still feel that instead of saying "I wish it's not child abuse," we should instead say "I wish the truth comes out this time, even if it makes me come face to face with something unpleasant."

I regret writing that I was autistic. I feel like you just assumed I can't tell the difference between child sexual abuse and tax evasion which absolutely isn't the case at all. Apologies if that wasn't your intention, just how I feel. You don't have to explain why child abuse is worse; I literally work with kids who were molested. 

[singsingsing]

15 minutes ago, BernRul said:

No, I still don't.

I understand that child sexual abuse is just about the worst thing there is. I'm not stupid. That's not what I said at all.

What I'm saying is our wishing does not control what any Duggar has done in the past. If they were investigated for child abuse, than that happened in the past. We can't change it. All we can change is what happens in the future--getting justice.

Children are abused wide scale. That is already a fact, even if people don't want to accept it. Just this week, my student decided to transtition into a boy because she was sexually abused as a girl. It's not a good thing socially speaking, but it still happens. I'd rather the world face it than continue to sweep it under the rug. 

I still feel that instead of saying "I wish it's not child abuse," we should instead say "I wish the truth comes out this time, even if it makes me come face to face with something unpleasant."

I regret writing that I was autistic. I feel like you just assumed I can't tell the difference between child sexual abuse and tax evasion which absolutely isn't the case at all. Apologies if that wasn't your intention, just how I feel. You don't have to explain why child abuse is worse; I literally work with kids who were molested. 

When people are saying that they wish for it not to be child abuse, what they mean is that they hope that child abuse did not take place. They understand that whatever happened has already happened and their wishes won’t change that. It’s basically the same as hoping for something in the future that you can’t control. I can’t control whether or not [insert Duggar here] will abuse children in the future, but I hope he/she doesn’t. I can’t control whether or not [insert Duggar here] abused children in the past, but I hope he/she didn’t. 

Mostly what people are saying is that they would love for the Duggars to face justice, but they are not hoping that children were hurt just so that the Duggars can be punished. 

[Laura2730]

1 hour ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Like this - Jinger, Jana, Jessa, Jill, Bill, unknown to me, Priscilla. Someone correct me if I don't have names right. This picture was 9 years ago (see copyright in the lower right corner)

 

Unknown girl is Amara Query, daughter of Debbie, and sister to Mandie, Heidi and to brother Peter Query

[BernRul]

12 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

When people are saying that they wish for it not to be child abuse, what they mean is that they hope that child abuse did not take place. They understand that whatever happened has already happened and their wishes won’t change that. It’s basically the same as hoping for something in the future that you can’t control. I can’t control whether or not [insert Duggar here] will abuse children in the future, but I hope he/she doesn’t. I can’t control whether or not [insert Duggar here] abused children in the past, but I hope he/she didn’t. 

Mostly what people are saying is that they would love for the Duggars to face justice, but they are not hoping that children were hurt just so that the Duggars can be punished. 

Yeah and I do understand it. I guess I mean I fundementally disagree with it.

I see it as, it's better that the truth gets out, because we can't change the past. Saying "I wish" doesn't change the past, because they already did what they did. 

I mean, I'm not saying they did, but does anyone seriously put it past the Duggars to do something that horrible? They've proven they are willing to both do it and cover it up in the past. If it did happen, I hope that law enfourcement and the public do what they can to stop them for good.

I just want the truth. 

[47of74]

3 hours ago, Meggo said:

BLASPHEMY!

Law & Order is the best! doink doink.

I remember my first night of law school I turned on the TV at the hotel and happened right in to a Law & Order marathon.  Not that I've taken up watching it - too much time studying law to want to watch TV about it.

[FighterJet]

45 minutes ago, BernRul said:

No, I still don't.

I understand that child sexual abuse is just about the worst thing there is. I'm not stupid. That's not what I said at all.

What I'm saying is our wishing does not control what any Duggar has done in the past. If they were investigated for child abuse, than that happened in the past. We can't change it. All we can change is what happens in the future--getting justice.

Children are abused wide scale. That is already a fact, even if people don't want to accept it. Just this week, my student decided to transtition into a boy because she was sexually abused as a girl. It's not a good thing socially speaking, but it still happens. I'd rather the world face it than continue to sweep it under the rug. 

I still feel that instead of saying "I wish it's not child abuse," we should instead say "I wish the truth comes out this time, even if it makes me come face to face with something unpleasant."

I regret writing that I was autistic. I feel like you just assumed I can't tell the difference between child sexual abuse and tax evasion which absolutely isn't the case at all. Apologies if that wasn't your intention, just how I feel. You don't have to explain why child abuse is worse; I literally work with kids who were molested. 

BernRul, I don't care you're autistic, I replied to you because your comment was interesting grounds for starting to dissect the reasoning behind people's wishes. At least, it was for me. I've read a couple of posts of yours and you have some great insights. I don't know what "people" think for sure, or their reasons behind it, I can only make assumptions. It's just a conversation.

That's true that our wishing does not change the past, what I was suggesting is that, since child porn and child exploitation are such monumental offences, the awareness that such phenomena could be so widespread so as to involve supposedly family-friendly TV personalities could spur anxiety among the members of the society involved. Child abuse sure isn't a negligible societal issue, one that can't be solved by tribunals alone. Justice can and should be served, for the victims, so as to ensure future perpetrators will be dissuaded, but justice alone can't address the underlying rotten societal issues that are at the root of these phenomena. The way I see it, it's a sort of societal grief, people experience. I get what you're saying: wishing something didn't exist doesn't make it unreal, and in this sense, wishing so would be counter-productive, if this thing happened to be true. However, I personally interpret wishing something horrible wasn't occurring when one doesn't know whether it did or not as an implicit wish for the well being of a (smaller or larger) society. As in, they wish it weren't true.

Edited November 27, 2019 by FighterJet

[NancyDrewFan1989]

It wouldn't surprise me if Bill Gothard was involved in "helping" Josh out when he got busted for sexually assaulting his sisters. The Duggars were growing in popularity throughout the country; so the family was becoming the poster family for his ministry. Plus, Gothard or someone affiliated with IBLP wrote a pamphlet advising families on how to handle a situation like Josh's. There have been others who were assaulted by their siblings that have spoke out against Gothard and IBLP for their advice. Here is a link to a website: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/

As for this new scandal in, I had a dream last night where Josh got arrested and Ma and Pa Keller were giving an interview explaining why Anna needs to stay with Josh. Pa Keller is sitting there saying that it is God's will and Anna needs to be loyal and true to her wedding vows, even though Josh has no problem breaking them. Ma Keller is sitting next to him smiling uncomfortably and not say a word with her side eyeing him giving off the impression she wants to shut him up and speak. This was the dream I had last night. Just thought I would add this as this is likely going to be a similar interview the Kellers would give if Josh got arrested.

[BernRul]

26 minutes ago, FighterJet said:

BernRul, I don't care you're autistic, I replied to you because your comment was interesting grounds for starting to dissect the reasoning behind people's wishes. At least, it was for me. I've read a couple of posts of yours and you have some great insights. I don't know what "people" think for sure, or their reasons behind it, I can only make assumptions. It's just a conversation.

That's true that our wishing does not change the past, what I was suggesting is that, since child porn and child exploitation are such monumental offences, the awareness that such phenomena could be so widespread so as to involve supposedly family-friendly TV personalities could spur anxiety among the members of the society involved. Child abuse sure isn't a negligible societal issue, one that can't be solved by tribunals alone. Justice can and should be served, for the victims, so as to ensure future perpetrators will be dissuaded, but justice alone can't address the underlying rotten societal issues that are at the root of these phenomena. The way I see it, it's a sort of societal grief, people experience. I get what you're saying: wishing something didn't exist doesn't make it unreal, and in this sense, wishing so would be counter-productive, if this thing happened to be true. However, I personally interpret wishing something horrible wasn't occurring when one doesn't know whether it did or not as an implicit wish for the well being of a (smaller or larger) society. As in, they wish it weren't true.

You know, you didn't have to take the time to write all that, but it was very nice that you did. Thank you.

I also don't want to make you feel bad by assuming things about you. I'm just recently diagnosed and am going through a lot of soul searching. There's a lot of people in real life who only see stereotypes (which are mostly false anyway) and I'm more sensitive to it now. Shitty people in real life have unfortunately clouded my judgement. So nothing bad meant. I am weighing how honest to be about myself and it's been a long complicated process.

[snickerz]

If there’s a take-down I want TLC to video it. Finally something interesting on their lame-o show.

[TheOneAndOnly]

No one hopes there are new victims, but considering this cult's attitude toward women and children and how badly the adults around Josh and his victims handled it before, I would not be surprised at anything they do. Remember one of the girls, Jill maybe, saying that it happens in every family? They really think it's normal.

I wish this family would lose their TV show. Even if they take Jim Bob off, he still gets the money when the kids are filmed. 

[Hashtag Blessed]

@BernRul I’m not autistic, as far as I know, but I’m 100% on the same page with you. I feel very unmoved by the idea that it’s child sex crimes instead of tax evasion or whatever. I don’t put a single thing past this family. I don’t see this as potentially “new” victims because they were already being victimized. It would only be new to us. But child abusers exist and they are out there harming people. The potential truth coming out about one doesn’t make me feel any more devastated than I already do every day knowing that unknown monsters are out there all the time. At least if it comes out there can be justice. 
 

ETA: I understand why people are hoping that isn’t it, I’m just saying I agree with @BernRul . I don’t really feel one way or the other about it.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Hashtag Blessed

[nelliebelle1197]

19 hours ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

So, I just popped over to the group Fundie Wonderland on FB. There are posts saying that one and possibly more are going to be charged with child porn and money laundering charges. One has a link attached and the other has a twitter post. The link is posted below:

https://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2019/11/todays-blind-items-laundering-for-porn.html?fbclid=IwAR09syiyPCG3JJd9tsJ9PQ7H6hOURZg5TNdnW48E3nD8Jjl74mXg3v1E7

A twitter account following posted this link:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2019/11/duggar-gossip-money-laundering/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=share_bar

Here we go...

You know these are the same circle jerk "sources" that have been saying this nonsense all along without a bit of proof, right? They are all quoting each other as a source. That crazydaysandnights.net is not a real news source and makes stuff up whole cloth.

Awright guys, RadarOnline filed a FOIA about the Duggar compound with Homeland Security. It does not appear that anything came from that FOIA other than a "neither confirm nor deny", which is typical of law enforcement agencies.  Radar has filed a second FOIA for the car lot.  No word on that one. This is all looking more and more like a lot of nonsense ginned up by that stupid crazydaysandnights gossip site and Reddit. I still think @Buzzard is right.

https://radaronline.com/exclusives/2019/11/homeland-security-refuses-to-comment-on-alleged-duggar-investigation/

Edited November 27, 2019 by nelliebelle1197

[ViolaSebastian]

Whether people agree or disagree with the premise in and of itself, it is more socially polite and respectful to say "I really hope XYZ thing that MAY have happened isn't one with victims that are children." No one here wants to hear that a child has been hurt in some way, and I think it's a way for us to express that we're speculating that it may be a crime involving the abuse of children without being ghoulish about it or sounding giddy that a child might have been hurt.