Counting On Season 8/9/10/11 4: Babies, Babies, Babies

[Meggo]

58 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Not long ago, a math teacher and member of FJ explained that the reason that so many people have trouble with Math is because the people that teach Math do not realize that they need to communicate how numbers work in language, much like the proofs in Geometry. Many (I’d say most) people teaching Math are excellent with numbers and how they work, but few have the skill of Translating the workings of numbers via communication by using language and words. As an example, in the addition problem 2+2, a good teacher would explain with words and maybe pictures how if you have 2 objects and you get 2 more objects, you now have a number of objects which is larger than what you started with, and further you can determine the exact number of objects you now have by counting the objects. Instead, most teachers say 2+2=4. It seems many Math teachers do all the steps in their head, and are able to articulate in words, the exact steps to solving the problem.

When I heard this, from a Math teacher no less, I said to myself, “Bingo.” I also struggled in Math, and only Math. I was also quite good in Geometry, because for the most part, concepts were explained with words vs pure numbers.

To me - geometry always made sense. I memorized all the formulas for areas etc - and could do all of those easy peasy (I would have to look up cones and cylinders because I don't use them - but..). But it made SENSE to me. I could see why I would need to know that and how I would use that. And proofs seemed fun to me. I had a fabulous geometry teacher too. 
Algebra - I had possibly the two worst teachers in my entire high school career for those two classes. Ugh. It was not pretty.

I often wonder how I'd do in math now... I'm half homeschooling my 7 year old this summer and MAN - all the props to teachers. Teaching reading? The English language makes zero sense. Math we're okay with because it's adding and subtracting right now - shapes and some MINOR fractions... 

[BernRul]

16 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I very much doubt Joy has had any high school level math or science, possibly not even middle school. There are some subjects I could see her testing at a 5th grade level at. Joy sounded so sad and deflated  when she said she didn't need algebra because she wasn't going to be an engineer. Oh honey, algebra is the least of what engineers need. There is this mystical thing called....calculus. 

If she doesn't know that x means times I doubt it's even at fifth grader.

She does know that 2 times 2.5 is the same as 2.5 plus 2.5, so I'd say fourth grade at best. 

[JordynDarby5]

Math and chemistry were my worse subjects. I never understood either one. No matter how hard I tried. I had teachers who tried to help me. My chemistry teacher was really nice and realized I was never going to get it and passed me. My mom was human calculator and so was my great-grandfather those genes did not get passed down to me. 

[neurogirl]

I thought it was known that Jill asked for "a baby" potentially after Jana started taking care of Josiah? and got Joy on her buddy group so young? Like obviously that's too young but I think Jill wanted to people please and also thought it would be fun so Joy became "hers?" I can't find any proof of this now but I thought this was known at one time. 

I couldn't find proof but I did find this quote from Michelle 2004:

"Joshua, our 16 yo son, his buddy was Joseph… But now Joseph no longer needs a buddy Jana, my oldest daughter (14) has two buddies…she begged for the second buddy 4 yo Jason and then the new baby, Jackson awww Jill, my 13 yo daughter, has two buddies…Joy-Anna (almost 7) and James (3). Joy thinks that James is her buddy and Jill is just her assistant to help with James!:) And then Jessa, 12, has two buddies (Jeremiah, one of the twins, who’s five and Justin, the one and a half year old). And of course Jeremiah thinks Jessa is just his assistant to help him take care of Justin. LOL! And then Jinger, our 10 yo, has one buddy: Jedidiah, the other twin (5) I really like that buddy idea And then John-David (14), twin to Jana, his buddy is Josiah, who is 8…but Josiah’s old enough that he doesn’t really need a buddy any longer. I think that covered everyone!"

So some of the older boys took care of one younger brother, while the girls got saddled with a whole families' worth of children (3). 

[KSmom]

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Not long ago, a math teacher and member of FJ explained that the reason that so many people have trouble with Math is because the people that teach Math do not realize that they need to communicate how numbers work in language, much like the proofs in Geometry. Many (I’d say most) people teaching Math are excellent with numbers and how they work, but few have the skill of Translating the workings of numbers via communication by using language and words. As an example, in the addition problem 2+2, a good teacher would explain with words and maybe pictures how if you have 2 objects and you get 2 more objects, you now have a number of objects which is larger than what you started with, and further you can determine the exact number of objects you now have by counting the objects. Instead, most teachers say 2+2=4. It seems many Math teachers do all the steps in their head, and are able to articulate in words, the exact steps to solving the problem.

When I heard this, from a Math teacher no less, I said to myself, “Bingo.” I also struggled in Math, and only Math. I was also quite good in Geometry, because for the most part, concepts were explained with words vs pure numbers.

This!

 I recently retired after tutoring math for 25 years. I always explained word problems as translating, English to math. I also stressed understanding math vocabulary. I had many bilingual students and this really clicked with them. While there is some rote learning in math, such as multiplication tables, this should be a small part of math teaching. I believe and taught to understanding why numbers worked the way they do. 

[JanasTattooParlor]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Not long ago, a math teacher and member of FJ explained that the reason that so many people have trouble with Math is because the people that teach Math do not realize that they need to communicate how numbers work in language, much like the proofs in Geometry. Many (I’d say most) people teaching Math are excellent with numbers and how they work, but few have the skill of Translating the workings of numbers via communication by using language and words. As an example, in the addition problem 2+2, a good teacher would explain with words and maybe pictures how if you have 2 objects and you get 2 more objects, you now have a number of objects which is larger than what you started with, and further you can determine the exact number of objects you now have by counting the objects. Instead, most teachers say 2+2=4. It seems many Math teachers do all the steps in their head, and are able to articulate in words, the exact steps to solving the problem.

When I heard this, from a Math teacher no less, I said to myself, “Bingo.” I also struggled in Math, and only Math. I was also quite good in Geometry, because for the most part, concepts were explained with words vs pure numbers.

That was me! Mathematical literacy is without a doubt the hardest skill for so many people because they were taught a process and not what the actual process or the concepts behind the process mean. I always have parents and students say that they were really good in either geometry or algebra but usually not both. The people who are great at algebra are usually really good at following directions because that’s a lot of what algebra is. And it’s also why people struggle with it. There’s not a whole lot of words in algebra unless you force a kid to learn to explain HOW they got their answer or you make it into a real world application where they see how it’s used. Geometry on the other hand, requires a lot of conceptual understanding where you have to know why something connects and be able to explain the relationships between ideas. I have high schoolers who can easily do simple algebra equations where you solve 2x + 4 = 8, but if I say, “what number, when doubled and combined with four is eight?” most kids really have to think about what that means. Not knowing mathematical symbols is very concerning since kids learn that x means times in third grade usually. I can’t believe Joy thinks Algebra is only needed if you want to be an engineer. There’s a reason why it is a class required for graduation in most states nationwide, it’s the absolute most basic high school math class you can take. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by JanasTattooParlor

[HeartsAFundie]

7 hours ago, BernRul said:

If she doesn't know that x means times I doubt it's even at fifth grader.

She does know that 2 times 2.5 is the same as 2.5 plus 2.5, so I'd say fourth grade at best. 

Learning multiplication tables and multiplication problems generally starts in grade 3, with an introduction to the concept in the middle second grade.  I taught second grade in a Catholic school for three years right out of college in the late 80s and we did begin studying multiplication (and even some rudimentary division!) as it was part of the math curriculum.  I don't remember the textbook publisher but I know it was one of the big school textbook players, like Harcourt or Silver Burdett and Ginn, that public schools also use.  So Joy is unaware of math concepts that even a second grader can grasp.  How sad is that?  

Edited July 31, 2020 by HeartsAFundie

[haroldtheyrefundies]

I have math dyslexia so I sympathize with Joy not knowing what x means. X means a lot of things in math and trying to remember right away which X is in the problem you're doing is very hard. I just did college algebra over the summer and that was a bad idea. Some concepts I understand and I can tell you how to do a certain problem step by step, but actually working out a math problem on paper is the hardest thing for me. Everything I have learned goes out the window and I freeze. Some concepts go way over my head and I try my best to guess the answer to the problem. I also have major test anxiety which doesn't help. When I was younger homeschooled student my older sister would try to help me with math but I would end up in tears. That still happens sometimes. 

[NotQuiteMotY]

On 7/29/2020 at 10:22 PM, Pecansforeveryone said:

I very much doubt Joy has had any high school level math or science, possibly not even middle school. There are some subjects I could see her testing at a 5th grade level at. Joy sounded so sad and deflated  when she said she didn't need algebra because she wasn't going to be an engineer. Oh honey, algebra is the least of what engineers need. There is this mystical thing called....calculus. 

Damn. I'm mostly a stay-at-home parent and I use algebra for stuff like knitting and baking. It's not for engineers!

19 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Not long ago, a math teacher and member of FJ explained that the reason that so many people have trouble with Math is because the people that teach Math do not realize that they need to communicate how numbers work in language, much like the proofs in Geometry. Many (I’d say most) people teaching Math are excellent with numbers and how they work, but few have the skill of Translating the workings of numbers via communication by using language and words. As an example, in the addition problem 2+2, a good teacher would explain with words and maybe pictures how if you have 2 objects and you get 2 more objects, you now have a number of objects which is larger than what you started with, and further you can determine the exact number of objects you now have by counting the objects. Instead, most teachers say 2+2=4. It seems many Math teachers do all the steps in their head, and are able to articulate in words, the exact steps to solving the problem.

When I heard this, from a Math teacher no less, I said to myself, “Bingo.” I also struggled in Math, and only Math. I was also quite good in Geometry, because for the most part, concepts were explained with words vs pure numbers.

Oddly enough, geometry I did terribly with proofs. I could get the numbers to work, but I couldn't explain why they did. And I majored in English in college! I did better with straight numbers as long as I had an equation to use them in.

[Meggo]

13 minutes ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

Damn. I'm mostly a stay-at-home parent and I use algebra for stuff like knitting and baking. It's not for engineers!

Oddly enough, geometry I did terribly with proofs. I could get the numbers to work, but I couldn't explain why they did. And I majored in English in college! I did better with straight numbers as long as I had an equation to use them in.

Okay - I knit - and bake. But I don't think I use algebra (I am admittedly as bad at knitting as I am a math) 

Baking - I think I mostly use fractions. Which I am glad are easy for me.

[Audrey2]

7 hours ago, haroldtheyrefundies said:

I have math dyslexia so I sympathize with Joy not knowing what x means. X means a lot of things in math and trying to remember right away which X is in the problem you're doing is very hard. I just did college algebra over the summer and that was a bad idea. Some concepts I understand and I can tell you how to do a certain problem step by step, but actually working out a math problem on paper is the hardest thing for me. Everything I have learned goes out the window and I freeze. Some concepts go way over my head and I try my best to guess the answer to the problem. I also have major test anxiety which doesn't help. When I was younger homeschooled student my older sister would try to help me with math but I would end up in tears. That still happens sometimes. 

if you take another math class, I highly recommend the Khan Academy website. It's a free site that you can go to or sign up for an it covers everything from kindergarten math through calculus, as well as courses in science and history. I've been using it this summer to review math that I haven't had for 30 years and I found the videos are really helpful and the problems that you worked around the computer you can work through them until the mastery level (you get them all right). it was helpful for me as some areas that I struggled with kept having to work the problems and work the problems and work the problems you would see a lot of new problems and it wasn't the same set of five to seven problems so you just memorized answers.

[SassyPants]

Also, for someone like me who is a visual learner, mental math is really hard, unless it’s involves solving for a round, easy number. My husband, a finance guy, can do mental mental all freaking day long, but ask him to compose an email, and it will take 30 minutes, different brains...AND this is why I think we do children a huge disservice when we tell them they can be anything they want to be. That notion is a fallacy. Anything that involved calculus, and I would have been out. Although my friend who is a pharmacist (married to an OBGYN) was adamant that very few people, even doctors, needed more than HS level math. She also felt that higher math classes were used to weed people out of professional tracks.

[Meggo]

1 hour ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

Damn. I'm mostly a stay-at-home parent and I use algebra for stuff like knitting and baking. It's not for engineers!

Oddly enough, geometry I did terribly with proofs. I could get the numbers to work, but I couldn't explain why they did. And I majored in English in college! I did better with straight numbers as long as I had an equation to use them in.

Okay - I knit - and bake. But I don't think I use algebra (I am admittedly as bad at knitting as I am a math) 

Baking - I think I mostly use fractions. Which I am glad are easy for me.

 

I had a client once who kind of snickered at me doing a math problem because I actually carried the one. I also have to write out a sentence for percentages, unless it's a nice round number like 10. I cannot figure out percentages on a calculator. 
 

 

[SassyPants]

Well, you know Trump’s dumb IQ test question of counting backwards from 100 by 7s? I would have a hard time quickly doing that. Mental subtraction is hard for me. Why? 

[KSmom]

6 minutes ago, Meggo said:

 

I had a client once who kind of snickered at me doing a math problem because I actually carried the one. I also have to write out a sentence for percentages, unless it's a nice round number like 10. I cannot figure out percentages on a calculator. 
 

 

That is horrible of your client! And one reason that people get math phobia. You know what works for you, and that’s what is important. As a tutor I have a love/ hate relationship with calculators, they are great tools, but way overused. You have a better understanding of percentages than someone who is dependent on punching the right buttons on a calculator.

[Meggo]

11 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Well, you know Trump’s dumb IQ test question of counting backwards from 100 by 7s? I would have a hard time quickly doing that. Mental subtraction is hard for me. Why? 

Right?? He was talking about it and I was like "hope it's not timed..." I could do it but it would take a little mental gymnastics. Did he get to use paper and pen? that would make it easier...

11 minutes ago, KSmom said:

That is horrible of your client! And one reason that people get math phobia. You know what works for you, and that’s what is important. As a tutor I have a love/ hate relationship with calculators, they are great tools, but way overused. You have a better understanding of percentages than someone who is dependent on punching the right buttons on a calculator.

Honestly - I could use the calculator - but I always get it wrong and go "Well - THAT's not right..." and pull out the pen and paper. 

If I have to figure out what the price of something is and it's 40% off 60$ though - I'll go "okay - 10% of 60 is 6. 6x4 is 24 … 60-24 is... uh... 60-20 is 40 and then minus 4 is 36."
But if it's like "what percentage of 37 is 4?" Then I pull out that math formula. No different than calculating the area or perimeter or whatever... it's a formula.

We all have our own math tricks. And once I took the math requirement in college (Stats - ugh) - I retired my study of math. I use what I need in my daily life, look up what I don't know and I move on. 

 

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Well, you know Trump’s dumb IQ test question of counting backwards from 100 by 7s? I would have a hard time quickly doing that. Mental subtraction is hard for me. Why? 

That's a dementia test.  If he's had to do that someone is checking out his mental faculties, but not for IQ.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Coconut Flan

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I had the hardest time with percentage until I spent 6 years calculating them, ya get pretty good at things after that long. I've also discovered I'm not as bad at math as I though, I just needed to learn the evil "common core" math that every kvetches and bitches about. Once I learned that, after having to teach my kids I was like WOAH, this makes so much more sense. My son was HORRIBLE at it and couldn't pass a math class to save his life, but when they reached JR high our district started teaching kids the old fashioned way, and he got A's in every math class, my daughter was more like I am and did will to start but struggled later. They now do BOTH methods and what ever one the kid catches onto is the one the kid can use. 

A lot of us are resistant to the "new math" because it isn't what we know, but in 15 years, parents will have learned this new magic math and won't have any problems with it. 

 

Stump is a fucking moron, only a moron would brag about passing a cognitive test you know Skippy had a stroke of some kind last fall, I'm not sure how that POS is still alive other than Satan doesn't want him in hell anymore than we want him on earth. 

[Lynn18]

3 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

That's a dementia test.  If he's had to do that someone is checking out his mental faculties, but not for IQ.  

Yes, that's the same test they gave my mom back in 2010 or so. It's definitely a dementia test.

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

That's a dementia test.  If he's had to do that someone is checking out his mental faculties, but not for IQ.  

Oh God, I might be demented on top of everything else??

3 hours ago, Meggo said:

Right?? He was talking about it and I was like "hope it's not timed..." I could do it but it would take a little mental gymnastics. Did he get to use paper and pen? that would make it easier...

Honestly - I could use the calculator - but I always get it wrong and go "Well - THAT's not right..." and pull out the pen and paper. 

If I have to figure out what the price of something is and it's 40% off 60$ though - I'll go "okay - 10% of 60 is 6. 6x4 is 24 … 60-24 is... uh... 60-20 is 40 and then minus 4 is 36."
But if it's like "what percentage of 37 is 4?" Then I pull out that math formula. No different than calculating the area or perimeter or whatever... it's a formula.

We all have our own math tricks. And once I took the math requirement in college (Stats - ugh) - I retired my study of math. I use what I need in my daily life, look up what I don't know and I move on. 

 

See, but that’s the important part, IF YOU KNOW it’s not the right answer.

[clueliss]

@SassyPants - rest assured that it is one of a series of questions.  The long question doesn't determine it.  I had to sit with my Mom through those.  

[Coconut Flan]

My mom is past the point of asking what is subtract?

They're looking for deterioration from your previous level.  And yes, it's across a number of questions testing different abilities.  Mom couldn't remember what subtract was, but she used to be an accountant and could count backwards by twos for a year or more longer than most people.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Coconut Flan

[Maggie Mae]

I like advanced math but I'm bad at it because I'm bad at arithmetic. I think i likely have some low level dyscalculia do to my ability to constantly transpose numbers and lack of instant recall for most calculations. People are like what's 7 x 4 and most people just know but I have think 14 +14 is 28, otherwise I'll say 24, which is 6x4 or even 18. But once we were allowed to use calculators, it all got so much easier to solve for x. Just like once we were allowed to type our essays, I became a better writer as I wasn't focused on forming neat letters and more on what I was saying. I'm so happy for the tech we have. I hope most teachers are using it and not still pretending that we don't all have all the information in the world available at the touch of a key stroke. 

[mpheels]

I use math daily as a health researcher, but very rarely do math myself. I write code in several analytic platforms so the computer does the math on my behalf. Having a basic understand of calculus is helpful so I can understand what the statistics are measuring and comparing (it’s all about the area under the curve), and I sometimes use algebra to calculate a variable based on a set of other variables. I even use trigonometry on occasion when calculating the distance between points on a map. By far my most useful math class was geometry because of the logic process we learned with writing proof. I had no idea I would end up in this career when I was in high school but my career is possible because I was exposed to the basic foundations of all the branches of mathematics.

[Bad Wolf]

Old person here. Every year I have a senior wellness exam. I get a mini mental test, remember 3 words and draw a clock with the time. Other stuff such as knowing the date, being able to function without help for dressing, bathing, cooking, etc. I haven't taken the test Trump took, but I haven't deteriorated mentally in the last 7 years. Well, my kids might debate that. ?