Duggars Raided by Homeland Security

[SilverBeach]

2 minutes ago, Coco said:

That book Escape was a great read.

Sure was. There are others books by former FLDS women in my collection also, women (and some men) enduring horrible shit, overcoming their fears of the outside world, and noping the fuck out despite a lifetime of brainwashing and indoctrination. It can be done.

[nausicaa]

13 hours ago, amendgitan said:

The whole point about the Quiverfull movement is Christian Dominionism. Arming their quivers for Christ.

Make no mistake, Quiverfulls are radicals who believe that they are in the middle of a cosmic holy war that will come to earth in the form of a war against all apostates, heathens/infidels, etc. 

I 100% agree that Quiverfulls believe they are in a holy war. My point was more that I doubt JB or Josh have done anything that would warrant HSI or ATF coming to investigate their workplace. They can even run paramilitary maneuvers on their property every weekend while shouting about the tyrannical government, and while it might get them on a couple watch lists, they are still protected by law. 

And while I don't doubt JB would like to eventually see Christian Dominionism be the law of the land, I get the feeling he isn't a boots on the ground paramilitary type but a "vote them in" type.

I don't know enough about ALERT to say whether it crosses into militia territory, but I do know I've never noticed any of their graduates having much skill with firearms, or just being all that scrappy. The gun nut dudes I know don't fuck around. Those guys have arsenals, survival skills, and are very skilled shooters. Most had extensive military experience. Meanwhile, I'm like 90% sure I can take Josh Duggar in a fight. 

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

I know they were seen there by actua lhumans,but those pics look photoshopped to me. And how the hell many families can just take off to an amusement park on any given week day??

Alllllll of everything else aside — a big advantage of homeschooling and running a car shop (presumably busier on weekends) is they can do family activities like visit amusement parks on weekdays when they are much less crowded. Often virtually empty. 

[Knight of Ni]

If I remember correctly, the oldest daughter went back to the FLDS as soon as she could. She most likely will have had a few children by now and is continuing the cycle of abuse. Even with all the opportunities possible she still went back to the cult. It's likely that Anna will never leave 

[Palimpsest]

53 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

It's interesting how the same discussions periodically emerge on FJ, something you see when you've been on the board a long time. The sex pest and his scandals have been discussed ad nauseum in the past, Anna too. I guess whenever something potentially scandalous happens, we will start up again, LOL. 

It is cyclical.  Also remember that potential scandals bring people out of lurkdom.  And we have a steady influx of new members all the time, so some people weren't around the last 99 times any given subject was discussed.  They get to give their opinions. 

When did people start calling Josh Duggar the "sex pest?"  It seems to trivialise the issue. He's a lot worse than a mere pest.

38 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I don't know enough about ALERT to say whether it crosses into militia territory, but I do know I've never noticed any of their graduates having much skill with firearms, or just being all that scrappy. The gun nut dudes I know don't fuck around. Those guys have arsenals, survival skills, and are very skilled shooters. Most had extensive military experience. Meanwhile, I'm like 90% sure I can take Josh Duggar in a fight. 

My money would be on you to wipe the floor with Josh Duggar! 

But Joshy, unlike his bros, wouldn't have been eligible for ALERT.  His molestations were well known in the cult and he wouldn't have passed the morals test.  He did hard labor renovating that hotel in Little Rock for a few months instead.

From where I sit ALERT is a paramilitary org, but is not aiming to form a militia as such.  It has been led by former military types since inception, but they do seem more focused on infiltrating politics and government than being vigilantes.  Gothard was keen on making political pals and courting congressmen.  Despite ALERT's attempts at distancing itself from IBLP, it is IBLP to the core.  

ALERT is Christian manly men playing soldiers and shooting guns for fun, pretending that they are real trained S & R operatives (but not doing it meaningfully anywhere), doing EMT training to better infiltrate town government.  Gawd only knows what goes into their leadership training.  It produces arrogant, ignorant, little twerps like Jed Duggar though.  And fake "rescue and medical" nonprofits like MedicCorps too.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Dandruff]

3 hours ago, OhNoNike said:

I never thought about this because I try not to “what if” with all these people too much, but it would have been amazing to see how Josh’s opinions on abortion would have quietly changed (for his case alone) should an unplanned pregnancy happened. I somehow doubt he’d think that child as a blessing.  He’s just the type of hypocrite to let that slide. 

I imagine there was a very anxious nine months or so for Josh, JB, and some others members of the clan after the AM scandal broke...with questions about the use of birth control and the sincere hope that it was being effectively used.  I really wonder what Josh, as well as JB and Michelle, would have wanted if there had been an early pregnancy.  How early can paternity be determined?

[RosyDaisy]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I also don't think Josh's child molesting past means that he is necessarily a pedophile or into child porn.

Given the fact that one of his victims was 5 years old, I strongly disagree.  

[neuroticcat]

I think ALERT is the way ATI parents can talk about how great the military is (yay America, etc) while still controlling their children. 

I had a childhood friend who did it back in the 90s instead of college. Afterward he ended up in the army and left his family and the cult behind. So did his brother. You better believe they didn’t send their third boy to ALERT.

I think ATI and all the rest really appeals for parenting young children and then offers lots of promises for the “problem” of adolescence. But the end goal isn’t functional independence...hence SAHD, College Plus, family businesses, and ALERT. Narcissistic parents never want their children to go and can’t imagine them as separate. So they’ve invented all these adult “opportunities” for their children that keep them in the cult.

The baseline of the crazy to me seems to be that your children are YOURS to shape however you think best versus separate individuals who need care and guidance in order to become their own people.

Sadly I think it leaves few options for the adult children: fall in line, rebel with estrangement, or get some distance and do what you want with a smile.

[amendgitan]

7 hours ago, Syriana said:

Anna's upbringing was unhealthy - almost certainly abusive in more than one sense of the word - and that will have messed with her development and sense of self-worth.  A history like that is difficult to escape from, but far from impossible.  I would (and did) pity her in the beginning, she came across as being naturally submissive in her personality and whether by nature, nurture or both, that made her an easy victim.

I stopped pitying her when it came out that Josh had abused his siblings, while I still have significant empathy for how difficult it would be to break out (especially with so many children) she is a mother and as such her first responsibility is to the safety of her children!  Anyone who knowingly has children with a person who has molested children isn't fit to be a parent, anyone who remains with a child molester after finding out (and thus keeps children in the same house) isn't fit to be a parent.  The fact that Josh maintains contact with children having molested children in the past is all the proof needed that he is lacking in decency.

I see your point. But didn’t she know all this (as did her parents) when she married the dude? 

She has been taught and it appears firmly believes that repentance and following Jesus is all that he needed to do to not be a child molester anymore. 

As far as we know he hasn’t molested kids since he was 15 (underage), so I can see how SHE could think her kids or any kids are safe with him. 

That’s insanity to the rest of us but not in her world. 

[closetcagebaby]

2 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Given the fact that one of his victims was 5 years old, I strongly disagree.  

Yeah, this is the thing I don’t get about the “these were the only girls he had access to” - his youngest victim was 5 and he was in his middle teens! That’s insane. That’s not just a crime of opportunity or however you want to put it. 
 

@Palimpsest that’s a British term. I think people picked it up from the Daily Mail who uses it every time Josh is mentioned. 

[nokidsmom]

12 hours ago, Xan said:

First of all, I don't think the Kellers were told the whole story about Josh.  Jim Bob would never risk it.  He needed some fundie girl to take Josh off his hands and "keep him busy".  He might have alluded to the fact that he wanted to keep Josh from committing "impurities" or some other fundie-speak for randiness.   I don't think he was honest at all.  We can all see that Mr. Keller doesn't seem to be a good judge of character anyway.

Regarding what Pa Keller knew about Josh: I have always leaned toward that what JB told him was cloaked in "Duggar speak" which was his sketchy way of telling the "truth" and he could tell himself he was "honest", it was not enough to give Pa Keller (or anyone else, much less Anna) the complete picture.  

JB, in his interview following the molestations, kept saying "it was all taken care of".  It showed where his head was at as in "nothing to see here, move along" and I think he likely did something like this with Pa Keller

 

[neuroticcat]

33 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I imagine there was a very anxious nine months or so for Josh, JB, and some others members of the clan after the AM scandal broke...with questions about the use of birth control and the sincere hope that it was being effectively used.  I really wonder what Josh, as well as JB and Michelle, would have wanted if there had been an early pregnancy.  How early can paternity be determined?

I don’t know. I’m probably in the minority but I still think his adult hidden behaviors were mostly porn and maybe strippers or something of that nature. In fundiespeak wouldn’t he have confessed to adultery otherwise? 

I’m guessing it would have led elsewhere given enough time, though. 

 

[RosyDaisy]

Josh publicly admitted to cheating on Anna.

Edited November 22, 2019 by RosyDaisy

[Cleopatra7]

Just now, RosyDaisy said:

Josh publicly admitted to cheating cheated on Anna.

My theory has always been that Josh cheated on Anna with either local women he met at the car dealership who were excited to meet/sleep with a D level TV star or local sex workers. The AM accounts were to find women outside of his immediate geographical location, but I don’t think he met anyone through that since the site was 80 percent male and 20 percent bots. It’s more likely that he found someone through his OKC ad. Again, this is all just my opinion.

[amendgitan]

2 hours ago, LacyMay said:

Anna is a complicated one, I tend to draw a lot of parallels between her and an abused women. 

It's entirely possible (I would even say probable) that she has little to no control over her finances and little to no resources. 

God knows the type of messaging she's hearing in the cult (Josh's mistakes are her fault, fixing her family is her responsibility, she's lucky to have the resources provided by her inlaws etc) 

On top of that she has soon to be 6 kids to think about, should she get out she has little to no resources to make a new start, little to no training and is at risk of losing the support of her parents AND inlaws. It's easy to imagine Josh/The Duggars pushing for custody and even getting it. Now suddenly she's on her own and her kids are alone in the cult. 

But this is all highly speculative especially since we don't even know to what degree Josh is involved in these recent events. His place of employment being part of an investigation doesn't necessarily make him guilty or even involved in any type of crime let alone a crime against children. And we have *no evidence* to believe that Josh has any type of attraction towards minors. Could this investigation involve children? Certainly is it more probable than some other possibilities not at all. 

Well I would say his molestation  of prepubescent kids when he had already reached puberty may show he has an “attraction” to preying on kids. 

Not all child molesters are pedophiles. True. But all are happy to have a victim they can control. And all are perverts. So some may have no problem raping a child OR an adult. As long as they can prey on someone. 

He had access to others his age but knew he couldn’t control them or force them to let him touch them. So he chose younger children. 

[nokidsmom]

6 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

She has been taught and it appears firmly believes that repentance and following Jesus is all that he needed to do to not be a child molester anymore. 

As far as we know he hasn’t molested kids since he was 15 (underage), so I can see how SHE could think her kids or any kids are safe with him. 

That’s insanity to the rest of us but not in her world. 

Agree, because it's insanity to rest of us, it's hard to imagine, but in her world it's not.    While I think that Anna has been abused both via her fundie upbringing and obviously during her marriage, in her world she sees everything can be fixed because Jesus.  She's not going to see her children as being in any sort of danger.  They may not be, but the possibility will never occur to her because it's all in her father in law's words "all taken care of". 

[amendgitan]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

There's nothing "biblical" about this either, it's patriarchal bullshit. 

It's interesting how the same discussions periodically emerge on FJ, something you see when you've been on the board a long time. The sex pest and his scandals have been discussed ad nauseum in the past, Anna too. I guess whenever something potentially scandalous happens, we will start up again, LOL. 

Not everyone has the time to follow these boards daily. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Coco said:

Exactly who I thought of too. That book Escape was a great read. She didn't even have access to a full tank of gas, that's how locked down they were. Once these women see the cycle repeat in their kids' lives they wake up. Saving the next generation is why some of the middle eastern princesses have escaped with their daughters recently too. It's a topic my husband and I talk about often, how terrible and evil the parents are who go into those cults and just continue to endorse the exploitation of their kids after it's obvious that's what's going on. Boys aren't exempt either. They're used for free labor and given terrible life training. What is wrong with these parents that they can't trust their kids to be wise or discerning out in the real world and decide to force them into an almost inescapable long term damage of a life path that hurts them. It makes no sense once the parents see past the idealized facade how that culture is really messed up. And the crazy part is, every good thing about a simple life is easy to get in the real world too lol, totally freed from the religious baggage and psychological control.   

 

The exception you’ve cited actually proves the rule. An example of one of few rare cases of FLDS women who escaped with their kids shows how hard it really is to break the mental shackles when that is what you’ve been raised with. 

Carolyn Jessop is one, unique, intelligent, independent-minded person among thousands of women trapped in that cult who wouldn’t dream of escaping.  

She is not Anna Duggar. 

[Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing]

24 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

Yeah, this is the thing I don’t get about the “these were the only girls he had access to” - his youngest victim was 5 and he was in his middle teens! That’s insane. That’s not just a crime of opportunity or however you want to put it. 

THIS! Years ago I learned that a former classmate had been arrested for child molestation. He was around 15-16 when he did it, his victims were 8 and 9. It just baffles me that Josh got away with what he did and that his parents defend him and tried to ‘keep it under wraps.’

[Palimpsest]

36 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

Yeah, this is the thing I don’t get about the “these were the only girls he had access to” - his youngest victim was 5 and he was in his middle teens! That’s insane. That’s not just a crime of opportunity or however you want to put it. 

You and many others.  Obviously.  

For everyone who is indignant about me saying that Josh is "not necessarily a pedophile."  It is an issue of technical terminology and, sorry, my professional experience in the field.  MSW and former Protective Services.   

We've been over this many times before, so for the 99th time:

A pedophile is someone who is specifically sexually attracted to children.   Some never act on their impulses.   However, predatory pedophiles will actively seek out children to attack as well as take advantage of availability and opportunity.

Adolescent sexual offenders like Joshua will prey on people they think are vulnerable and available.   This is usually younger children or siblings.  However, adolescent offenders are not necessarily "fixed" on children as sexual objects.  They have some hope of rehabilitation and normal sexual relationships with adults.   Adult child molesters and rapists  -- I want to lock 'em up and throw away the key.  Forget attempts at rehabilitation.

Which is not to say that there wasn't something very wrong and predatory about Josh's molestations.  Just that he is not necessarily a pedophile and it is not written in stone that he will molest children again.  

He obviously has many serious unresolved issues around sex though.  But he has never had proper treatment.  Jesus jail is not proper treatment.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Xan]

I was wandering around on Reddit (I know.  Take everything on Reddit with a huge grain of salt.)  Anyway, someone mentioned the corporations that the Duggars own.

I looked on the Arkansas Secretary of State website and they're right.

Jim Bob has 5,  Michelle (2). Jana (1), Jason (1), John David (2), Josiah (1), Jedididah (1), Anna (1), Jeremiah (1).  That's a lot of corporations.  I'm sure he did it as a vehicle to save on taxes and expense lots of stuff to the corporations.  And Jim Bob put things in the other names to shield himself from liability.   The one with Anna as registered agent was just formed this September.  And another one, Duggar Processing, had it's corporate status revoked but it doesn't say when.  Four of the corporations were formed in 2019.

If anyone is coming for them about financial stuff, Jim Bob has built of layers of protection between himself and any claims or complaints.  And if Jim Bob sensed any trouble coming his way, you better believe he's gotten lawyers to protect him, the family, and its assets. It's a pity that their fans don't understand how much Jim Bob is all about the money.

I only wish that the recent investigation has something to do with that now-defunct Duggar Processing because that had Jim Bob's fingerprints all over it.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Xan

[SillyDillys]

I think if this scandal involves children (dear god I hope not) anna will leave him. It's hard to say. Something that killed me was when anna spoke about Josh's infidelity on CO how she said she didnt want to rely on her feelings cause she would turn a mess into a disaster. GIRL WTF I understand you have to stay strong for your kids, but come on! You gave this man the best years of your life! You took your vows seriously and raised his children (whether he wanted them or not) he treated you like crap. (I think josh cares for her on some degree, but he doesn't love her) he humiliated you! And her moron owners no doubt told her it was her fault. How fucked up is it that you feel you can't have your feelings because jesus?

Okay I lied.. i feel a tiny bit sorry for her

[nokidsmom]

 

7 minutes ago, Xan said:

If anyone is coming for them about financial stuff, Jim Bob has built of layers of protection between himself and any claims or complaints.  And if Jim Bob sensed any trouble coming his way, you better believe he's gotten lawyers to protect him, the family, and its assets. It's a pity that their fans don't understand how much Jim Bob is all about the money.

I always thought that JB could be quite formidable either by himself or with attorneys in tow when it comes with dealing with complaints / claims.   He's likely gotten away with a lot because some will not want to deal with him because of the immense hassle.  

I don't live in NWA, but if I did, I would not want to do business with any Duggar owned corporation or with any of them personally.  

[viii]

2 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Men are never preached at to put their wives before their children.

Depends on the fundie sect. In the cult I was raised in, it was taught god first, spouse second, children third. And that was taught to everyone. 

[NancyDrewFan1989]

12 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Just knowing that your siblings chose a different life and are doing okay gives you “role models.” They don’t have to have been around much, nor do they have to be your mentors. She knew they had gotten out. She was not estranged from them, they were in touch. She could see that it wasn’t so horrible — if she wanted to.

Yes, Anna’s parents picked Josh for her and advised her to stay with him when the AM scandal tore her life apart.  Seems to me she doesn’t have much good reason to “trust” her parents. —especially if she has a glimmer of a sense that she shouldn’t trust Josh.

I feel sorry for Anna up to a point. She certainly has had a raw deal.  But she has contributed to her own misfortune (and, to some extent, that of her children) through her unwillingness to change and grow.  It would have been damn hard, but it was what she needed to do.   

That is just it, Anna doesn't get it at all. She comes off like the entitled fundie who thinks everyone will cover for her. When I said she "trusts her parents" I meant that she trusts them to help her out with decisions when Josh screws up. It's like she needs their permission for everything she does even though she is married.

Also, I believe she was estranged from Daniel for some time. A few years ago Daniel had gone on long rants blasting his parents and family for disowning him and speaking out about the dangers. Knowing the Duggars and Kellers they probably spun this into a fucked up story about Daniel going to Hell and giving into the devil. That's the way I viewed it when I found out. I don't think she was fully estranged from Rebekah and Susanna as there seemed to be some communication. But, back when Susanna was pregnant it is rumored that Jim Bob had a major issue with the family maintaining contact. While Anna is a Duggar by marriage I have a feeling Jim Bob's actions caused Anna and Josh to limit their communication as they felt it would look bad or something like that. 

As for Anna in general I think she is terrified to leave Josh and the Duggar compound. If she does it will be a highly publicized divorce in the fundie community. Plus this will be the third Keller child to go through a divorce. To add insult to injury the Duggars are going to be in damage control mode that would affect Anna in  the long run by either taking the children away or her ability to find a job. On top of that she has limited education by being raised in a bubble of doing everything everyone tells you to do and you will have a good life blessed by God. Her whole life is warped by her parents messed up beliefs.

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, amendgitan said:

But didn’t she know all this (as did her parents) when she married the dude? 

I have never believed that. Yes, JB talked about some kind of sexual sin with the Kellers. He had to do it, because both families were involved with ATI and there were rumours about Josh. But in no way it was the complete truth, nor the sisters were mentioned. JB needed Josh to be married urgently. Kellers were willing to marry off their daughters and were open to forgive a typical hot teenager behaviour or even worse, but molesting sisters is another level!