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Duggars Raided by Homeland Security


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2 hours ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

The role model siblings were cut out of her life for sometime because they chose to live outside the IBLP cult.  [snip]

For what it is worth, I don't think Anna really "trusts Josh" as much as she "trusts her parents." Her parents are the ones who she, I believe, turned to when the Ashley Madison scandal broke. They were also the ones who picked Josh for her. [snip]

I don't think she has ever had the chance to have an independent mind like the three role model siblings that she has needed the past four years. 

Just knowing that your siblings chose a different life and are doing okay gives you “role models.” They don’t have to have been around much, nor do they have to be your mentors. She knew they had gotten out. She was not estranged from them, they were in touch. She could see that it wasn’t so horrible — if she wanted to.

Yes, Anna’s parents picked Josh for her and advised her to stay with him when the AM scandal tore her life apart.  Seems to me she doesn’t have much good reason to “trust” her parents. —especially if she has a glimmer of a sense that she shouldn’t trust Josh.

I feel sorry for Anna up to a point. She certainly has had a raw deal.  But she has contributed to her own misfortune (and, to some extent, that of her children) through her unwillingness to change and grow.  It would have been damn hard, but it was what she needed to do.   

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25 minutes ago, Coco said:

But I think the woman dismissed the lawsuit of her own accord? Did it ever go to court? I think the first one at least admitted to lying as part of the settlement.

If I were Anna, I could easily dismiss it as “fake news”. 

 

Edited by neuroticcat
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Oh idk, mbe so. I didn't feel like reading more.  The one said there wasn't an outright denial of the encounters by him just that it wasn't abusive. But you're right fundie women are experts at pretending things are fine when they're beyond effed up. 

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10 hours ago, BernRul said:

But here's the thing. If Anna gets a pass because she was raised in this cult and is stunted and innocent, why doesn't Josh? After all he was stunted too. He's also being forced to live a life he doesn't want (he didn't want 6 kids only 2 ish, and didn't want to be a car salesman over a lawyer). He's also been sheltered and stunted. So why does Anna get a pass but not Josh? 

If Anna isn't responsible for staying with Josh due to her upbringing, then none of the adults raised in the cult are either. We can't keep picking and choosing. 

It’s not random picking and choosing. It’s logic. Why don’t I give him a pass? Because he:

1. Is a male. He is the patriarchy. He has choices no woman in the cult could dream of. 

2. Had a job in the real world with independent access to computers and daily contact with people outside the cult. 

3. Actively molested his own sisters. 

4. While trolling the net for sex outside his marriage, hypocritically went after women’s choices over their bodies and LGBTQ person’s human and civil rights, using the phony cry of “values”.  

I think that him being a male in a male dominated cult within a society that even outside the cult is misogynistic and discriminatory toward women is really the biggest difference. 

But I think understanding the reality of an extremist, Christian, patriarchal cult like the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist’s would mean that comparing a male in the culture with a female and wondering why they’re not viewed the same, would be like comparing a man with a missing leg and a missing hand and wondering why he isn't scoring in a basketball game like the guy with one hand tied behind his back. 

Josh has a hand tied behind his back. Anna is missing a hand and a leg. 

11 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

In her recent Instagram post, Anna shares photos of her and Josh’s trip to Silver Dollar City. I don’t doubt for a second that the three photos of the sex pest were included for the sole purpose of showing he’s not in jail but hanging out with Jana, Jim Bob, her and the kids.  

 

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Ugh. That pervy little monster peering through the slats next to his little girl. He’s so creepy. 

And why do the older girls looks so miserable? 

Edited by amendgitan
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14 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

And why do the older girls looks so miserable? 

Edited

They always look the same: Johanna tries to smile, Jenni looks angry, Jordyn looks a bit sad and MacKinzie quiet.

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Anna's upbringing was unhealthy - almost certainly abusive in more than one sense of the word - and that will have messed with her development and sense of self-worth.  A history like that is difficult to escape from, but far from impossible.  I would (and did) pity her in the beginning, she came across as being naturally submissive in her personality and whether by nature, nurture or both, that made her an easy victim.

I stopped pitying her when it came out that Josh had abused his siblings, while I still have significant empathy for how difficult it would be to break out (especially with so many children) she is a mother and as such her first responsibility is to the safety of her children!  Anyone who knowingly has children with a person who has molested children isn't fit to be a parent, anyone who remains with a child molester after finding out (and thus keeps children in the same house) isn't fit to be a parent.  The fact that Josh maintains contact with children having molested children in the past is all the proof needed that he is lacking in decency.

Edited by Syriana
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I pitied Anna in the beginning, both with the molestation and the Ashely Madison scandals. But she did not accept help from family then and decided to continue with this shithole.

So I do not pity her now, she made a decision then and now there are consequences.

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I did have sympathy for her to an extent but if Josh is involved in anything this time and especially if it involves children then she doesn't get any sympathy from me. She will soon have 6 children and they need to come first, people from her background have escaped and find a way to manage, sure it would be tough but it would be safer for them and better for her eventually too, she may love Josh but he lied to her and was online looking for other women through some of her pregnancies and even if he didn't physically cheat on her that is shitty thing to do and if he hasn't already he will likely do the same again eventually. 

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I never thought about this because I try not to “what if” with all these people too much, but it would have been amazing to see how Josh’s opinions on abortion would have quietly changed (for his case alone) should an unplanned pregnancy happened. I somehow doubt he’d think that child as a blessing.  He’s just the type of hypocrite to let that slide. 

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5 minutes ago, OhNoNike said:

I never thought about this because I try not to “what if” with all these people too much, but it would have been amazing to see how Josh’s opinions on abortion would have quietly changed (for his case alone) should an unplanned pregnancy happened. I somehow doubt he’d think that child as a blessing.  He’s just the type of hypocrite to let that slide. 

A lot of so called good Christian men have paid mistresses to have abortions, while preaching against it. 

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Yeah, a lot of people are strongly anti-abortion until it personally affects them.

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4 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Yeah, a lot of people are strongly anti-abortion until it personally affects them.

Which just shows once again that legislation restricting access to abortions aims at controlling women, especially women of a low socioeconomic status and little power. 

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I don't have any sympathy for Anna as she should've had left when he admitted to molesting his sisters. I feel for the children.

Edited by laPapessaGiovanna
Removed Tapa signature and speculation
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The comment from @tazmomthat I referred to got deleted so I delete my quote and answer, too. 

Edited by FluffySnowball
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5 hours ago, Syriana said:

Anna's upbringing was unhealthy - almost certainly abusive in more than one sense of the word - and that will have messed with her development and sense of self-worth.  A history like that is difficult to escape from, but far from impossible.  I would (and did) pity her in the beginning, she came across as being naturally submissive in her personality and whether by nature, nurture or both, that made her an easy victim.

I stopped pitying her when it came out that Josh had abused his siblings, while I still have significant empathy for how difficult it would be to break out (especially with so many children) she is a mother and as such her first responsibility is to the safety of her children!  Anyone who knowingly has children with a person who has molested children isn't fit to be a parent, anyone who remains with a child molester after finding out (and thus keeps children in the same house) isn't fit to be a parent.  The fact that Josh maintains contact with children having molested children in the past is all the proof needed that he is lacking in decency.

 I agree with your post. However, with regards to the bolded, we have to remember that in their world, the most important relationship is between husband and wife, as evidenced by the endless date nights, siblings raising siblings, siblings serving as babysitters while parents take trips, etc, that we see on their show and read about on social media. Females are raised from birth to put their husbands ahead of their children at all times, so it may not even occur to them that their children should come first.  It would go against everything they've ever been taught and when you add in the biblical aspect of this being ordained by god it would make it even harder to question. I think being in the thick of raising so many children plus homeschooling, Anna probably doesn't have a whole lot of energy at the end of the day for self-reflection. And being raised to believe you must have as many kids as possible means that last sentence isn't likely to change anytime soon.

All this to say I do have some pity for Anna as being born female in this environment set her up for being walked all over for her entire life without even realizing it.

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12 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

My memory is that he offered to take them in.  Didn’t he say he was ready to drive and get her and the kids and bring them to his house?  Probably didn’t intend to support Anna and the kids indefinitely, but he would probably have helped her find a job and/or get some kind of child support from JB (since Josh was in “rehab”) and/or AFDC ( or whatever aid to poor families is called now).

Maybe Anna figured (rightly) that she would be “taken care of” and have more material things if she stayed with the Duggar show (literally) but she had a choice.

My own memories were vague so I looked it up.  We obviously don't know exactly what Daniel Keller said to Anna but he was pretty outspoken in public, bless him.  And most of the contemporary articles are similar to this.  https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/anna-duggars-brother-daniel-keller-rips-pig-josh-duggar-on-facebook-2015248/

Some choice excerpts under the spoiler:

Spoiler
Quote

 “You have to confess and forsake your sin to have mercy. Not sin confess and repeat,” Anna’s sibling wrote, as a deluge of commenters responded underneath his comment.

As Keller interacted with commenters, more revelations were made about Anna’s current situation. “I know that my sin sent Jesus to the cross just as did josh sin,” Keller wrote. “But think for a min about the victims. Tell me how you would feel if someone cheated on your sister and brought so much disgrace to you and ur family. And when you done that. Go to hell you p—-.”

Quote

Duggar’s admission of guilt did little to appease Keller. “Confessing and getting caught are two different things,” he wrote in response to one person who brought up the affair between King David and Bathsheba. “You want to know what happens when you cover ur sin maybe you should go read ur bible instead of beating people over the head with it.”

One commenter questioned whether Keller had even reached out to Anna. “Yeah bitch I did. I have been thinking of her and sick to my stomach for her for last few days. Why you got a another bible verse to beat over my head?” he wrote, following up with more details. “I have told her I would pay for her to move out here w me and pay for her kidz. I don’t think josh will see that this is a big deal and be truly broken till that happens. I beat my life on the fact that josh has not co.e to true brokenness yet.”

Keller also called out his own parents for allegedly encouraging Anna to remain with Josh amid the cheating scandal. “Oh I know. But my parents are preaching stay w him,” he shared. “There more interested in how there daughter getting a divorce will make then look then they are in tryin

Anna’s brother also directly called out Josh. “I tell you who I don’t give a s— about is that pig she calls her husband,” Keller wrote. “I told her I would go get her and her children stay w me. She said she’s staying where she’s at. But I won’t stop trying to get that pig out of our family.”

 

Go Daniel!  Family visits must be a whole load of fun these days and he still has to interact with the pig.  Poor guy.

As for Anna, I don't think it matters whether I have sympathy for her or not.  Or whether anyone else does.  I also don't think Josh's child molesting past means that he is necessarily a pedophile or into child porn.   Ashley Madison featured adult women, after all.

My own take on Anna's decision to stay with Josh is that she was actually being true to her faith.  Mind boggling though that might be.

Anna genuinely meant her marriage vows and kept them.  Josh did not.  She gave him the benefit of the doubt back in 2015.   I would have kicked his butt out.  She believed he was truly repentant.  I think she is kidding herself.

I also think she genuinely loves children and babies, is fully QF in every sense of the word, and is breeding babies for God.   She may be using Joshie as a sperm donor for that cause, in spite of everything else.  And the "forgiving" saintly wife may have the sex addict by the short hairs behind the scenes.  I don't know.

Anna strikes me as a very similar character to Esther Shrader. Esther swims happily in the kool-aid along with John Shrader.  

Both sisters are brainwashed, if you will, but are full participants in spreading poisonous beliefs.  They are abusers as well as victims.

 If Josh screws around again on Anna (or, God forbid, ever touches another child) she may not repeat the mistake of staying with him.  Who knows.

Edited by Palimpsest
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18 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

In her recent Instagram post, Anna shares photos of her and Josh’s trip to Silver Dollar City. I don’t doubt for a second that the three photos of the sex pest were included for the sole purpose of showing he’s not in jail but hanging out with Jana, Jim Bob, her and the kids.  

I know they were seen there by actua lhumans,but those pics look photoshopped to me. And how the hell many families can just take off to an amusement park on any given week day??

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Anna is a complicated one, I tend to draw a lot of parallels between her and an abused women. 

It's entirely possible (I would even say probable) that she has little to no control over her finances and little to no resources. 

God knows the type of messaging she's hearing in the cult (Josh's mistakes are her fault, fixing her family is her responsibility, she's lucky to have the resources provided by her inlaws etc) 

On top of that she has soon to be 6 kids to think about, should she get out she has little to no resources to make a new start, little to no training and is at risk of losing the support of her parents AND inlaws. It's easy to imagine Josh/The Duggars pushing for custody and even getting it. Now suddenly she's on her own and her kids are alone in the cult. 

But this is all highly speculative especially since we don't even know to what degree Josh is involved in these recent events. His place of employment being part of an investigation doesn't necessarily make him guilty or even involved in any type of crime let alone a crime against children. And we have *no evidence* to believe that Josh has any type of attraction towards minors. Could this investigation involve children? Certainly is it more probable than some other possibilities not at all. 

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5 minutes ago, LacyMay said:

On top of that she has soon to be 6 kids to think about, should she get out she has little to no resources to make a new start, little to no training and is at risk of losing the support of her parents AND inlaws. It's easy to imagine Josh/The Duggars pushing for custody and even getting it. Now suddenly she's on her own and her kids are alone in the cult. 

Without education, a job and money, let alone housing, I’m afraid Anna could actually lose custody, should she divorce Josh. That being said, I have no clue how American custody laws work so I’m guessing entirely. But I can imagine very well that during the last Josh scandals, JB and M led her to believe she had little chance to get the children. They tried to manipulate and gaslight her for sure! Sleazy scum, both of them. 

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I'm mentally comparing Anna to Carolyn Jessop. Carolyn played the game until her oldest daughter was being clearly groomed as a child bride. Carolyn had no real connections outside of the FLDS and a very disabled child, but she still loaded all of her kids into a van and got out. She wasn't a public figure and wouldn't have had support from a significant number of complete strangers.

 

If Anna has knowledge of her children being in danger (SPECULATION) and doesn't leave, I'm less sympathetic. Aside from the Duggars and her parents, she'd have support.

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41 minutes ago, Playagirl said:

Females are raised from birth to put their husbands ahead of their children at all times,

This attitude is seeping into main line  denominations and it infuriates me. 

Men are never preached at to put their wives before their children. They’re not taught anything at all, in fact. They’re simply the  collateral beneficiary of the teaching.

When the Junior Junebugs were of tender years, they came first to both me and the Ex-.

He was in second place for me. 

He was in second place for himself. 

It’s an unnecessary and unrealistic thing to insist that women prioritize their spouse over their children. It goes against the fundie-sanctified idea that a woman’s most sacred responsibility is to bear children. Bear them, yes!! Raise them well? No! Not if that means the father takes second place, ever.  

Aha — just as forced-birthers ignore the child once it’s born, the patriarchs ignore the importance of the child in the family unit.

No matter when or where, the man must be honored above all else, except God. 

Edited by MamaJunebug
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29 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

...I also don't think Josh's child molesting past means that he is necessarily a pedophile or into child porn.   Ashley Madison featured adult women, after all.

I agree - you have to remember he was a (pretty sheltered) teenager at the time... he didn't go out grooming children to molest, he molested the only girls accessible to him. I'd be willing to bet if he'd been going to public school and living a more "worldly" life he'd have just been fooling around with girlfriends his own age. I am NOT in any way condoning what he did, it was wrong, criminal, and he absolutely knew better. He should have had some real punishment, and his victims should have had some real counseling (and not be forced to live with him still). I'm just saying that we can't assume he's a pedophile NOW because of what he did as a curious horny teenager who was never allowed alone with girls of his own age outside the family and who was given little to no real sex ed or information. 

That said, he is still obviously a sleaze bag.

As for Anna, I do feel a little sympathy that she was brought up to think this is what she has to live with in order to go to heaven. All the same, she has better options than most to get out of the cult, if she really tried to do so. One tell-all book and/or a few TV interviews would probably keep her and the kids financially afloat long enough for her to get settled, get the kids in school, and find a real job, and she has siblings willing to assist. But I can see where she's got to be terrified of the thought of it - not only would she be stepping out into an uncertain future in a world she was taught was evil, she'd be risking her (and her kids') souls going to suffer in hell for all eternity. Hell now for a few decades or hell forever? That's what many fundies think they're choosing between, when in situations like this. They need some serious religious counseling, psychological counseling, and some deprogramming.

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11 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

It’s an unnecessary and unrealistic thing to insist that women prioritize their spouse over their children. 

There's nothing "biblical" about this either, it's patriarchal bullshit. 

It's interesting how the same discussions periodically emerge on FJ, something you see when you've been on the board a long time. The sex pest and his scandals have been discussed ad nauseum in the past, Anna too. I guess whenever something potentially scandalous happens, we will start up again, LOL. 

Edited by SilverBeach
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10 minutes ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

I'm mentally comparing Anna to Carolyn Jessop. Carolyn played the game until her oldest daughter was being clearly groomed as a child bride. Carolyn had no real connections outside of the FLDS and a very disabled child, but she still loaded all of her kids into a van and got out. She wasn't a public figure and wouldn't have had support from a significant number of complete strangers.

 

If Anna has knowledge of her children being in danger (SPECULATION) and doesn't leave, I'm less sympathetic. Aside from the Duggars and her parents, she'd have support.

Exactly who I thought of too. That book Escape was a great read. She didn't even have access to a full tank of gas, that's how locked down they were. Once these women see the cycle repeat in their kids' lives they wake up. Saving the next generation is why some of the middle eastern princesses have escaped with their daughters recently too. It's a topic my husband and I talk about often, how terrible and evil the parents are who go into those cults and just continue to endorse the exploitation of their kids after it's obvious that's what's going on. Boys aren't exempt either. They're used for free labor and given terrible life training. What is wrong with these parents that they can't trust their kids to be wise or discerning out in the real world and decide to force them into an almost inescapable long term damage of a life path that hurts them. It makes no sense once the parents see past the idealized facade how that culture is really messed up. And the crazy part is, every good thing about a simple life is easy to get in the real world too lol, totally freed from the religious baggage and psychological control.   

 

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