The Rise of Fundamentalist Catholicism

[Maggie Mae]

23 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

I know catholics have other books that are equally or more important to them than the Bible, but I do not understand why the fuss over making sure no one other than chosen churchgoers gets a communion wafer. Jesus said all over the Bible that He was available to all people. I also don't believe in transubstantiation, but even if I did, I think I'd just be happy that someone got to partake of Jesus. It's not like there won't be enough for everyone.

If I remember correctly, the Eucharist is a sacrament, one of seven. Even Catholic s aren't supposed to take it if they have committed a mortal sin, such as skipping church or murder, until they go to Reconciliation. You also have to take it at least once a year or be excommunicated. 

[Grimalkin]

20 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

If I remember correctly, the Eucharist is a sacrament, one of seven. Even Catholic s aren't supposed to take it if they have committed a mortal sin, such as skipping church or murder, until they go to Reconciliation. You also have to take it at least once a year or be excommunicated. 

     This is correct. Catholics believe that the communion is the actual body and blood of Christe. When the priest breaks the communion wafer in half when he is blessing it, it is done over a gold plate and every last crumb is consumed. 

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, Maggie Mae said:

You also have to take it at least once a year or be excommunicated. 

Nope, just go to confession.  Almost everything can be washed away by confession.  They wouldn't know who to excommunicate anyway since no one keeps records of who receives communion.  

Edited December 31, 2019 by Coconut Flan

[SoybeanQueen]

It all just seems to be so much about control to me, and that bothers me.

Probably why I'm not catholic or any of the types of fundie discussed here?

[katilac]

On 12/28/2019 at 12:03 AM, HA88 said:

My dad is Mr. Catholic and I was telling him because he knows the priest (that priest is the reason we and many other families switched churches), and my dad was very serious and said the EM is the person handling the body and blood of Christ, they need to be a EM. I understand and respect that, but seriously who would fake being a EM?  

Someone who wanted to participate in the wedding. It's much easier to fake being an EM for one day than to actually be one, lol. 

 

2 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

If I remember correctly, the Eucharist is a sacrament, one of seven. Even Catholic s aren't supposed to take it if they have committed a mortal sin, such as skipping church or murder, until they go to Reconciliation. You also have to take it at least once a year or be excommunicated. 

Just to clarify, skipping church is a mortal sin when you do so for casual reasons like sleeping in. It's fine to miss if you don't feel well or have to work. And skipping your Easter duty for no good reason (you have to receive during the Easter season, not just once anytime during the year) is likewise a mortal sin but not cause for excommunication. Fun fact: excommunication does not mean you are not a member of the church. 

Re the priest who slapped the baby: I would have lost my shit if he had slapped my baby, but I also feel kind of bad for him. He was so old and looked confused right from the beginning. People who are 89 should probably have help when dealing with crying babies. 

2 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

It all just seems to be so much about control to me, and that bothers me.

Probably why I'm not catholic or any of the types of fundie discussed here?

Almost all religion is about control. 

[SoybeanQueen]

5 minutes ago, katilac said:

Almost all religion is about control. 

Sure. Some are quite a bit more controlling than others, though. All in different ways, of course, but the strength of that particular element makes me really uncomfortable. Rules about how you can or cannot have sex with your spouse, whether or not you can use birth control, etc. Not a catholic issue, but in other religions, how you can wear your hair, rules about how you dress, whether or not you can have a radio/birthday party/cup of coffee/beer....

It's the man-made legalism and hints of Handmaid's Tale I could not personally be down with.

[Hane]

@SoybeanQueen, I drifted away from lifelong, devout Catholicism to UUism when I was in my 50s, around 2006. Around that time, my BIL asked me to be the lector at his father’s funeral Mass. The priest, who recognized me from his Divorced and Separated Catholics group back in the early ‘80s and assumed I was still a practicing Catholic, reminded me to announce to the congregation that only Catholics in good stead could receive communion. I kind of “forgot” to. For good measure, I used gender-inclusive language in the Bible readings. No one said anything. I guess I’m a heretic now.

[Marserin]

I just read this article about St. Marys Kansas and the many SSPX Catholics there

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/retreat-christian-soldiers/603043/

[medimus]

There was mention of homeschooling above. I have stumbled across a few fundie catholic blogs and they seem to do classical homeschooling and/or charlotte mason. I seem to have also noticed a trend for adult converts to catholicism from evangelical/fundie protestantism to be the ones to go all in for the latin mass.

I have a favourite trad catholic homeschooling blogger, who I can't fault for what seems to be an excellent homeschool education , but is one of the above.

I grew up in a Catholic country and live in a different Catholic country now. In the former very very few people went to church regularly and most people just did the milestone sacraments (baptism, communion, confirmation, marriage) there. There were plenty of catholic schools (I went to some) but they were not overt at all. WHen a new very strict catholic school opened qbout 5 years ago, there was much disbelief in the press and it still has only a very small number of pupils.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

It's wild that homeschooling has become de rigueur among hardline traditionalists. Overall, Catholics are less likely to homeschool than any other demographic in America, by a fairly wide margin:

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/03/for-a-lot-of-american-teens-religion-is-a-regular-part-of-the-public-school-day/pr_2019-10-03_religion-in-school_0-07/

Growing up in a Catholic community I only knew one family who homeschooled, and it was because one of their kids had a significant disability. The other siblings attended a parochial school.

[Beermeet]

On 12/30/2019 at 4:18 PM, Coconut Flan said:

Nope, just go to confession.  Almost everything can be washed away by confession.  They wouldn't know who to excommunicate anyway since no one keeps records of who receives communion.  

Yeah, that's the thing, no one is keeping tabs. They want pews filled.  It's up to you, as a Catholic to keep up with confession.  When receiving the eucharist,  no one is taking names and checking the list twice to make sure you are worthy to receive it.  As a cradle catholic, I don't know anyone who was denied communion or excommunicated.  And, many missed church or worse. Including me.  Maybe because it's so big ( the entirety of Catholicism) and you can go to any Catholic church, they are largely the same. It would be pretty dang scary if they did keep track like that!  ?

[smittykins]

They might be able to do it at a small-town parish.(During my Catholic days, I was a CCD assistant teacher for a couple years, and one year,  the teacher—a conservative older lady—would ask each student if s/he had gone to Confession that week, and s/he would invariably say “yes.”  One week she said “Well, I spoke with Father X, and he says he hasn’t seen any of you lately.”

[Beermeet]

On 12/3/2019 at 11:43 AM, Four is Enough said:

I remember, in my Latin Mass days,seeing countless women (especially) saying the Rosary over and over during the Mass.I always wondered why bother...they were killing two birds with one stone..but they did it.

One of my favorite priests was Fr. Ted. He told me ( as did others both priest or parishioner) that the Catholic mass is by design, blessing and forgiving us of our sins throughout the mass.  We participate by standing, kneeling, answering, praying and reading out loud together and ultimately through communion.  By the time communion happens,  you're been blessed quite a few times already.  I liked that. 

7 minutes ago, smittykins said:

They might be able to do it at a small-town parish.(During my Catholic days, I was a CCD assistant teacher for a couple years, and one year,  the teacher—a conservative older lady—would ask each student if s/he had gone to Confession that week, and s/he would invariably say “yes.”  One week she said “Well, I spoke with Father X, and he says he hasn’t seen any of you lately.”

My hometown church was soooo small!  Everyone knew everyone.  At Christmas,  it was a good place to connect with my friends who moved for college.  We were all there. They technically could have there!  But, thankfully, didn't.  Who would be able go to church except the old ladies? ???

Edited January 5, 2020 by Beermeet

[Cleopatra7]

14 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Yeah, that's the thing, no one is keeping tabs. They want pews filled.  It's up to you, as a Catholic to keep up with confession.  When receiving the eucharist,  no one is taking names and checking the list twice to make sure you are worthy to receive it.  As a cradle catholic, I don't know anyone who was denied communion or excommunicated.  And, many missed church or worse. Including me.  Maybe because it's so big ( the entirety of Catholicism) and you can go to any Catholic church, they are largely the same. It would be pretty dang scary if they did keep track like that!  ?

The Catholic Church as an institution can’t micromanage people’s personal lives anywhere near as much as Protestant fundamentalist sects. It’s just too large, and local iterations of Catholicism are too diverse for the kind of uniformity that trads seem to think existed before Vatican II. I think what trads really want is a return to the days when you could be peer pressured by your community into conforming to conservative norms.

[Beermeet]

11 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The Catholic Church as an institution can’t micromanage people’s personal lives anywhere near as much as Protestant fundamentalist sects. It’s just too large, and local iterations of Catholicism are too diverse for the kind of uniformity that trads seem to think existed before Vatican II. I think what trads really want is a return to the days when you could be peer pressured by your community into conforming to conservative norms.

The church doesn't just want pews filled to be filled.  They really do want you to eligible for salvation.  In their hearts they are forgiving,  IME.  That's what confession is about.  To get many chances to do better.  Free will and all.  They are not, in reality, looking for reasons to make you leave.  They worry about your soul and feel it's best if you attend services as much as possible, regardless.  IME.  Catholicism has its problems but micromanaging you and trying to kick you out is not one. 

[Marmion]

3 hours ago, smittykins said:

They might be able to do it at a small-town parish.(During my Catholic days, I was a CCD assistant teacher for a couple years, and one year,  the teacher—a conservative older lady—would ask each student if s/he had gone to Confession that week, and s/he would invariably say “yes.”  One week she said “Well, I spoke with Father X, and he says he hasn’t seen any of you lately.”

I would have thought that confession is supposed to be confidential . Not that I have ever experienced this , being that I was evangelical , where confession , whenever , and if it happens is a bit different .  Like it's usually " with every head bowed , and every eye closed " .  Still  I 'd thought that even the identities of the persons who did , and did not go to confession would have been kept secret .   P.S.  All this talk about confession has brought to my mind this comedy sketch .  

 

[PennySycamore]

@Marmion, what is said in confession is confidential between the penitent and the priest.  That's the whole Seal of the Confession.  I'm not sure that just telling the teacher which students had been to confession would be considered breaking the Seal or not.  

[smittykins]

4 hours ago, smittykins said:

They might be able to do it at a small-town parish.(During my Catholic days, I was a CCD assistant teacher for a couple years, and one year,  the teacher—a conservative older lady—would ask each student if s/he had gone to Confession that week, and s/he would invariably say “yes.”  One week she said “Well, I spoke with Father X, and he says he hasn’t seen any of you lately.”

Apologies for quoting myself, but as I thought about it, I remembered that she expected monthly Confession instead of weekly, and would ask accordingly.

[quiversR4hunting]

Confession can be open or closed. When you go into the confessional (the one in my church looks more like a small counseling office than the old school one shown on Blue Bloods), you can push a screen closed so the priest can't see you and then you can kneel or sit and say your confession. Or you can keep the screen open and have an open confession. 

Seal of the Confession is still in place no matter if it is a closed or open confession. 

[Beermeet]

Yes, confession is confidential. 

Proof: you don't see priests at court. And, they would be there as often as cops if it were any different! ??

[medimus]

11 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

It's wild that homeschooling has become de rigueur among hardline traditionalists. Overall, Catholics are less likely to homeschool than any other demographic in America, by a fairly wide margin:

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/03/for-a-lot-of-american-teens-religion-is-a-regular-part-of-the-public-school-day/pr_2019-10-03_religion-in-school_0-07/

Growing up in a Catholic community I only knew one family who homeschooled, and it was because one of their kids had a significant disability. The other siblings attended a parochial school.

This is really interesting and makes it even more interesting that so many of the blogs of trad catholics i've come across are converts. 

I forget if we are allowed to link to random blogs?

About leaving the church, Dara Ó Briain has a great comedy bit about it:

https://youtu.be/FdolFXcNAH4

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

4 hours ago, medimus said:

I forget if we are allowed to link to random blogs?

Yes, we definitely can.

[Marmion]

14 hours ago, medimus said:

This is really interesting and makes it even more interesting that so many of the blogs of trad catholics i've come across are converts. 

I forget if we are allowed to link to random blogs?

About leaving the church, Dara Ó Briain has a great comedy bit about it:

https://youtu.be/FdolFXcNAH4

 

The video link you posted reminded me of a funny joke , plus a funny song .  

Quote

A journalist, researching for an article on the complex political situation in Northern Ireland, was in a pub in a war-torn area of Belfast. One of his potential informants leaned over his pint of Guinness and suspiciously cross-examined the journalist: "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?" the Irishman asked.

"Neither," replied the journalist; "I'm an atheist."

The Irishman, not content with this answer, put a further question: "Ah, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Protestant_vs._Catholic_atheism   

 

[anachronistic]

I was at the library today and came across the Atlantic article about St Mary’s. I’ve never heard of fundamentalist Catholicism or PPXS but I’m utterly fascinated by it as I had no idea these people existed. Thank goodness for FJ!

I live just outside Boston and at a guess half or a third of my UU church was raised Catholic. I know a lot of Christmas/Easter Catholics who are quite liberal and have no problem with gay people getting married but when I press them to put their money where their mouth is and stop being Catholic it’s unthinkable. I guess it’s my black and shite thinking, autistic brain that just doesn’t understand how you can be okay with institutional Catholicism of any kind and also be pro choice and for equal rights for gays.

and I’m sorry if this has been discussed on another thread - I’ve only read this one - but I’ve googled and googled and can’t figure out what the heck Catholic monarchism is. How can they have a monarchy if their priests are all celibate? And if the king isn’t supposed to be a priest then who the heck is supposed to get the crown, it’s not like we have royalty in the US. I’m confused. 

[ViolaSebastian]

9 minutes ago, anachronistic said:

and I’m sorry if this has been discussed on another thread - I’ve only read this one - but I’ve googled and googled and can’t figure out what the heck Catholic monarchism is. How can they have a monarchy if their priests are all celibate? And if the king isn’t supposed to be a priest then who the heck is supposed to get the crown, it’s not like we have royalty in the US. I’m confused. 

In my understanding, it isn't that they support the priests as the monarchy, they simply support the divine right of kings and their monarchy. So, for example, the Church I visited had priest who wrote this long, frankly pretty disorganized and slightly scary screed on his love for Emperor Franz Joseph of Austria-Hungary. It's just a belief that we ought to bring back monarchs who are Catholic.