Jump to content
  • Sky
  • Blueberry
  • Slate
  • Blackcurrant
  • Watermelon
  • Strawberry
  • Orange
  • Banana
  • Apple
  • Emerald
  • Chocolate
  • Charcoal
47of74

The rise of fundamentalist Catholicism

Recommended Posts

Hilarious
47of74
The reason trads will give about the priest facing ad orientem (a fancy way of saying with his back to the congregation) is that it’s facing the rising sun or towards Jerusalem if you’re in the West, but it seems more likely that it was just a local custom of Rome that became universal in the Middle Ages. in the Latin Mass. In any case, the Latin Mass isn’t really designed for the laity to hear or participate in its proceedings; it’s really more for the priest, and the people are just “there.” The vast majority of masses are said without a congregation. It’s supposed to be a bloodless sacrifice to God performed by a priest, and the deemphasizing of that in the post Vatican II mass is one of the many things trads don’t like about it. The priest isn’t speaking to the congregation in the Latin Mass (except a couple of times when he turns around), he’s directly addressing God.
In fact, until the production of hand missals for the laity in the early 20th century and the work of the Liturgical Movement, the Mass was not the central activity for most Catholic laypeople. Rather, the devotions associated with their particular town or parish were. In a way, trads and liberals are two sides of the same coin for thinking for laypeople should understand the mass, whether in a missal or in the vernacular, and making it the center of their spiritual life.


I think in a way Vatican II was getting back to the basics.

For example, the reason the church switched from Greek to Latin early on was that Latin was the common language of Europe up until well past the fall of the Western Empire. Switching to the vernacular at services post Vatican II was the church going back to using everyday language for services.
  • Upvote 4
  • I Agree 1
  • Thank You 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Four is Enough
20 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

In fact, until the production of hand missals for the laity in the early 20th century and the work of the Liturgical Movement, the Mass was not the central activity for most Catholic laypeople. Rather, the devotions associated with their particular town or parish were. In a way, trads and liberals are two sides of the same coin for thinking for laypeople should understand the mass, whether in a missal or in the vernacular, and making it the center of their spiritual life.

I remember, in my Latin Mass days,seeing countless women (especially) saying the Rosary over and over during the Mass.I always wondered why bother...they were killing two birds with one stone..but they did it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cleopatra7
2 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I remember, in my Latin Mass days,seeing countless women (especially) saying the Rosary over and over during the Mass.I always wondered why bother...they were killing two birds with one stone..but they did it.

Even when Vatican II was convened in 1962, a lot of Catholics (probably most) didn’t own a hand missal. Missals for the laity were a new thing, and a lot of people didn’t see a point in bothering with it when doing the rosary or another devotion that they probably learned from their grandmother was just as edifying. In the debates about liturgical reform before and during the Council, conservatives brought up the specter of progressives were trying to snatch the rosaries out of old ladies’ hands, and a lot of bishops were reluctant to suggest that the laity shouldn’t be saying the rosary during mass, because that was a very old, grassroots tradition. This is why the modern trad congregation where everybody over the age of six has their head in a missal is anachronistic. If they really wanted to replicate that pre Vatican II feel, everyone should be saying the rosary by themselves. One of the goals of the liturgical reformers was to change the mass from a place where every person is doing their own private devotions to more of a congregational experience.

  • Upvote 5
  • Thank You 1
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eport

The Atlantic posted an article about the Priests of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) (which is Latin mass/Vatican II should not have happened), basically all moved to a small town in Kansas and mostly take it over.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/retreat-christian-soldiers/603043/?utm_medium=offsite&utm_source=yahoo&utm_campaign=yahoo-non-hosted&yptr=yahoo

"As waves of young people have abandoned the Great Plains in search of economic opportunity, St. Marys has managed to attract families from across the nation. The newcomers have made the radical choice to uproot their lives in pursuit of an ideological sanctuary, a place where they can raise their children according to values no longer common in mainstream America."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mrs
2 hours ago, eport said:

The Atlantic posted an article about the Priests of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) (which is Latin mass/Vatican II should not have happened), basically all moved to a small town in Kansas and mostly take it over.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/retreat-christian-soldiers/603043/?utm_medium=offsite&utm_source=yahoo&utm_campaign=yahoo-non-hosted&yptr=yahoo

"As waves of young people have abandoned the Great Plains in search of economic opportunity, St. Marys has managed to attract families from across the nation. The newcomers have made the radical choice to uproot their lives in pursuit of an ideological sanctuary, a place where they can raise their children according to values no longer common in mainstream America."

We have a group here inside the beltway of DC. https://www.npr.org/2017/04/10/522714982/catholics-build-intentional-community-of-like-minded-believers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoipolloi
4 hours ago, eport said:

The Atlantic posted an article about the Priests of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) (which is Latin mass/Vatican II should not have happened), basically all moved to a small town in Kansas and mostly take it over.

Thank you, @eport, for sharing this article. What an awful bunch of people, idolizing a holocaust denier while bleating about being "pro-life."

Dollars to donuts, we'll be reading about at least one major abuse scandal in that SSPX community in KS, within 10 years. Calling it now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cleopatra7
5 hours ago, eport said:

The Atlantic posted an article about the Priests of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) (which is Latin mass/Vatican II should not have happened), basically all moved to a small town in Kansas and mostly take it over.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/retreat-christian-soldiers/603043/?utm_medium=offsite&utm_source=yahoo&utm_campaign=yahoo-non-hosted&yptr=yahoo

"As waves of young people have abandoned the Great Plains in search of economic opportunity, St. Marys has managed to attract families from across the nation. The newcomers have made the radical choice to uproot their lives in pursuit of an ideological sanctuary, a place where they can raise their children according to values no longer common in mainstream America."

The article was surprisingly good, but I’m shocked that it didn’t mention the prevalence of monarchism and even pro-Francois views among SSPX supporters. They were really being coy and disingenuous at the end by claiming they don’t pay attention to politics when they’re probably online right now fangirling over the Hapsburgs or something. Neoconfederatism and crusade apology is also big in that scene. I also noticed that Marcel Lefebvre wasn’t mentioned either, which is also a big blind spot, though I suppose there were probably word/length restrictions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nausicaa
38 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The article was surprisingly good, but I’m shocked that it didn’t mention the prevalence of monarchism and even pro-Francois views among SSPX supporters. They were really being coy and disingenuous at the end by claiming they don’t pay attention to politics when they’re probably online right now fangirling over the Hapsburgs or something. Neoconfederatism and crusade apology is also big in that scene. I also noticed that Marcel Lefebvre wasn’t mentioned either, which is also a big blind spot, though I suppose there were probably word/length restrictions.

It really is a well-written article. 

I still can't get over the Hapsburg fangirling I've found on Twitter. Charles Coulombe Twitter account is...something. And if he is any indication, they most certainly do pay attention to a lot of global politics (especially abortion, gay marriage laws, sex abuse scandals, and Communism).

Can anyone explain the theology behind the SSPX priest telling the young woman she would be excommunicated for not stopping another friend from getting an abortion? I've never encountered this view in Catholicism before, but rather that each adult is ultimately responsible for their own behavior. What was she supposed to do? Lock a grown woman in a room?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cleopatra7
1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Can anyone explain the theology behind the SSPX priest telling the young woman she would be excommunicated for not stopping another friend from getting an abortion? I've never encountered this view in Catholicism before, but rather that each adult is ultimately responsible for their own behavior. What was she supposed to do? Lock a grown woman in a room?

 

I’ve  never heard about excommunicating for not stopping an abortion either, whether in the SSPX or the mainstream Catholic Church. I’m honestly wondering if the real “sin” was this woman having the temerity to try to have a life and friends outside of the SSPX, since it’s not like you can call the police on someone for getting an abortion (at least not yet). Given how insular and triumphalist the SSPX is, being a member of this group is not conducive to having friends from other religious groups or even friends who are “Novus Ordo Catholics.” If you have no friends or experiences outside the SSPX, it’s easier to stay in the group and look down on those who are outside it.

@hoipolloi, I saw an expose a Swedish news team did on abuse in European SSPX communities several years ago on YouTube, but I can’t seem to find it anymore. It may have been time sensitive. The possibility of something happening in Kansas is high, if only because these sorts of groups think that just being outwardly pious is enough to show that one isn’t an abuser. Since they think Vatican II caused the abuse scandal and they don’t acknowledge Vatican II, there can’t possibly be any abuse in St Mary’s, right? 

Something I have been wondering for some years is where the SSPX gets its funding, since they’ve built some pretty impressive structures in the middle of nowhere that a cadre of committed parishioners alone can’t explain. The Wikipedia entry on them once claimed they had some patrons among Italy’s “black nobility” but I have no idea if this is true or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoipolloi
5 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The possibility of something happening in Kansas is high, if only because these sorts of groups think that just being outwardly pious is enough to show that one isn’t an abuser. Since they think Vatican II caused the abuse scandal and they don’t acknowledge Vatican II, there can’t possibly be any abuse in St Mary’s, right?

Yes.

Also, what they don't and can't or won't see is that the top-down control of the cult's members, the heavily patriarchal structure, the systematic degradation and suppression of females, and the absolute suppression of any dissent or even questioning all create a climate absolutely ripe for serious abuse of all kinds. 

I give them 10 years, if that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marmion
Spoiler

 

What I just found out , upon seeing what I could find on YouTube , is that this sort of thing has even made its way to of all places Japan .  

 

 

19 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I saw an expose a Swedish news team did on abuse in European SSPX communities several years ago on YouTube, but I can’t seem to find it anymore. It may have been time sensitive. The possibility of something happening in Kansas is high, if only because these sorts of groups think that just being outwardly pious is enough to show that one isn’t an abuser. Since they think Vatican II caused the abuse scandal and they don’t acknowledge Vatican II, there can’t possibly be any abuse in St Mary’s, right

I believe that this is what you were referring to , I could only find print articles though .   https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=31222  ,  

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/ug/new-cover-ups-of-assaults-by-catholic-priests 

Edited by Marmion
second video has a misleading title , as it has nothing to do with Traditional Catholicism in Japan , just cultlike propaganda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cleopatra7
8 hours ago, Marmion said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

What I just found out , upon seeing what I could find on YouTube , is that this sort of thing has even made its way to of all places Japan .  

 

 

I believe that this is what you were referring to , I could only find print articles though .   https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=31222  ,  

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/ug/new-cover-ups-of-assaults-by-catholic-priests 

I’m always fascinated about non-white SSPX supporters, since that subculture is so aggressively Eurocentric. In the case of the Japanese group, I can kind of see the appeal, since Japanese Catholics had to practice underground for centuries:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan

In this case, I can see how the minutiae of Tridentine Catholicism would take on special meaning. But then, I noticed that the Japanese SSPX priest’s religious name has a “de” in it, which makes no sense in the context of Japanese language or culture. It’s not even like his name is something like Louis de Montfort, a reference to a historical saint from a particular place and culture. Adding the “de” seems to be an affectation found in SSPX circles, where Catholic aristocracy and monarchism is fetishized contra the modern ideals of equality and the like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unimpressed
Katzchen24
On 12/3/2019 at 10:41 AM, Glasgowghirl said:

The Catholic School's in Scotland are not much different from the non denominational school's, follow the same curriculum just with a bit more RE thrown in. 

That's my experience here in South Australia as well. The private Catholic schools aren't that different to the run-of-the-mill public schools. They tend to be a lot cheaper than other private schools, although there are exceptions.

As far as scary Catholic fundies are concerned, I came across a particularly nasty one the other day. E Michael Jones was interviewed by Alex Jones on 29 Nov 2019 (I heard him through the excellent Knowledge Fight podcast, I'm NOT a Jones fan) and he was a full on piece of Catholic sh!t. He is another of the ones who thinks that Vatican II was a serious error, and his numerous publications are a litany of rabid anti-semitic views. I don't think EMJ has much of an audience, but he has also been interviewed by Roosh V which should tell you everything you need to know about him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.