Jump to content
IGNORED

The Rise of Fundamentalist Catholicism


47of74

Recommended Posts

50s baby, Cradle Catholic, and non-attender to church, because of things, once relayed here ,with which I will not go into detail again.  I'm ok outside of the Archdiocese of Baltimore. until I hear some complete assholery... I miss the Mass, I miss the singing in choir, I miss incense and Benediction and even Stations. I do not , however ,miss the priest telling me how to vote or what to write on a petition, and so on.Religion is fine until people fuck it up.

So while I consider myself a Catholic, and I do still say many prayers, sing hymns, and pray the rosary, I do not adhere to the requirements to attend Mass at specific intervals..

I worked with a young teacher who was well on her way to becoming a Catholic fundie...the things she had heard about the way vaccines were developed made my skin crawl.But some "higher up" had told her, so she accepted it as gospel, and no "proof" that I could show would change her mind. So I drifted away..

  • Upvote 14
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Katzchen24 said:

Actually, I was just browsing SSPX's website and found this gem from Genesis prominently displayed amongst their info....

A lot of anti-Vatican II sentiment is deeply rooted in antisemitism. I wish people would talk about it more. So often I see media coverage of ultra-right-wing Trads where they seem to think that it's just "oh how nice, these Catholics are a little more old fashioned." That ain't it. They're dangerous reactionaries who have little in common with the average churchgoer.

I think a lot of the recent rise in this strain of Catholicism has a lot to do with online recruitment for the alt-right. I sometimes go down the rabbit hole of extremist Twitter pages or Facebook groups, and the overlap between alt-righters and rad trads is remarkable. It's sometimes hard to tell who's  recruiting for who. 

https://sojo.net/articles/webs-connecting-traditionalist-catholics-and-white-nationalists

  • Upvote 6
  • I Agree 7
  • Thank You 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where I grew up, Catholic churches seem to be less conservative than the Anglican churches as far as who attends more than just Good Friday, Easter Sunday, and Christmas, and who is involved in the youth groups and other activities in the church. 

I also grew up in a location where about 30% of children attend Catholic school but the Catholic schools have to teach to approved state curriculum, so the religious element more becomes an add on- learn about the beliefs, history, Bible through a Catholic lens but also about all other religions; Mass on certain dates (e.g. Ash Wednesday) and for certain reasons (e.g. school's 'Founding Day', graduation); and some prayer. You do not need to be Catholic to attend Catholic schools; those baptized and/or members of the local parish are prioritized for admission but many families choose the Catholic education system or the particular local school because they think it's a better fit for their kid or they think they're child will get a better education (like public schools, they vary in quality and resources though). I think the strong presence of the Catholic school system in Australia, particularly in the area I attended school in for the longest duration, reduces the expression of polarizing views and opinions coming from priests during mass in most parishes. The diversity of the student population, as well as teaching students about other faiths, also curtails some of the fundamentalism. Contact is the best way to inoculate radicalism, hatred, and close-mindedness in most people. 

There are obviously plenty of hard-liners but they've been few and far between in my experience. I wonder if that's changed at all in the years I've been gone though. My extended family are very socially liberal and Catholic- the more conservative/extreme members are those who have converted to protestant branches of Christianity. They haven't mentioned not attending mass anymore, although for years most of them have gradually gone less often but still way more Sundays than not. I do think the Australian Royal Commission into institutionalized child sexual abuse and other scandals besides that have caused significant dissonance for many of my family members, even the elderly ones, when it comes to their feelings about the actual leadership of the Catholic church. But we're so strongly culturally Catholic as a family and I think they do see it as the leadership not being 'The Church' and separate that out.

  

  • Upvote 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

This was a really interesting article, thanks for linking it. I copied in the quote from Marshall below. It even starts ok - I mean, I don't want children married to to adults, I don't want forced conversions or honour killings, I don't want polygamy or lying. Then he takes a hard right turn into horrifying rhetoric.

"We need to, we Catholics, we need to start saying, no, this is of the devil. I don’t want a society where children are married to adult men. I don’t want a society where it’s okay to lie to infidels. I don’t want a society where forced conversions or honor killings are condoned by the so-called divine law. I don’t want a society with polygamy. All these things are great evils. They must convert or be wiped off the face of the earth. You cannot have civilization with Islam. Period." (Bolding is mine)

So, he doesn't want forced conversions, but 'they' must convert or be killed.

The cognitive dissonance is STRONG in this one. 

  • Upvote 2
  • Disgust 3
  • WTF 12
  • I Agree 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Four is Enough, I certainly agree with what you said.

Years ago, a priest told me about the concept of the “internal forum decision,” in which it’s considered morally defensible to follow your own conscience even when your decision is in conflict with official Church teaching (aka the “external forum”). I know many Catholics who adhere to this concept, but pretty much keep it to themselves.

  • Upvote 7
  • I Agree 3
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Traditionalist Catholicism is what got me down the general fundie rabbit hole and I have both personal experience with it and academic knowledge (I’m working on a PhD dissertation on Catholic in the US now, but not trads because I just can’t with them anymore). Since the US is still a Protestant supermajority country, extreme Catholic groups tend to fly under the radar. Since a lot of them claim to be monarchists, they don’t really have an interest in politics, except of course for anti-abortion stuff. If you’re just a regular Joe or Jane Catholic in the US, you’re not going to run across traditionalists unless you’re specifically looking for them.  

Conservative but non-traditionalist Catholics on the other hand are politically active and influential in the GOP, but it’s not as obvious as with Protestant fundies. A lot of neoconservative and paleo conservatives are conservative Catholics. Pat Buchanan is an example, although I think he straddles the fence between the trad and the conservative camp (I call that being a conservotrad).

During my research on Vatican II, I’ve discovered that a lot of things that we think of as being “pre-Vatican II Catholicism” we’re actually pretty recent innovations in the grand scheme of Catholic history. Most of habited teaching orders that staffed Catholic schools were only founded in the mid to late 19th century. This makes sense when we realize that the idea of mass literacy and numeracy is a very recent concept. I read a study that found that most Catholic religious orders only have a shelf life of about 100-150 years, so the collapse of the women’s teaching orders after Vatican II really isn’t that strange. 

Before the 19th century, there was also a lot of liturgical diversity in the Roman Rite and different types of devotions. What changed was that Pope Pius IX embarked upon a Romanization process to make the Catholic Church more “Roman” which meant adopting the customs of Catholicism as it was practiced in the city of Rome. This included priests wearing Cassocks, the use of Monsignor as an honorific, and the proliferation of Roman devotions like the Forty Hours. So this idea that trads have that Catholicism was frozen in time for about a thousand years until Vatican II is just plain wrong. 

  • Upvote 15
  • I Agree 2
  • Thank You 18
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cleopatra7, I was recently surprised to learn from a priest that the awarding of the title “Monsignor” and the wearing of the beretta are on the wane.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/17/2019 at 4:10 PM, NachosFlandersStyle said:

A lot of anti-Vatican II sentiment is deeply rooted in antisemitism. I wish people would talk about it more. So often I see media coverage of ultra-right-wing Trads where they seem to think that it's just "oh how nice, these Catholics are a little more old fashioned." That ain't it. They're dangerous reactionaries who have little in common with the average churchgoer.

I think a lot of the recent rise in this strain of Catholicism has a lot to do with online recruitment for the alt-right. I sometimes go down the rabbit hole of extremist Twitter pages or Facebook groups, and the overlap between alt-righters and rad trads is remarkable. It's sometimes hard to tell who's  recruiting for who. 

https://sojo.net/articles/webs-connecting-traditionalist-catholics-and-white-nationalists

I have to agree. Looking at traditionalist Catholic tumblrs and forums is like a weirdly distorted white supremacy mirror image. Same ideas about western civilization and same die hard believers.

  • Upvote 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

Have any of you guys come across this dude? He’s a Trad Catholic. His blog posts are... something to behold. 
 

https://www.freejinger.org/topic/30330-christendom’s-most-eligible-bachelor-traditional-catholic-looking-for-wife-blog/

I remember reading these threads ages ago! What a surprise that he's:

a) still not married,

b) referred positively to Taylor Marshall (same person from the article linked by @NachosFlandersStyle above), and

c) confessed in a massively passive aggressive creepy way to a crush on a nice catholic girl.

Ugh. Sometimes I think that these ultra-trad wing nuts set their sights so high so it guarantees they never find a partner. I'm not going to accuse him of being closeted. It may be that he's just not really into being partnered but his faith has pushed him into a "you must get married and breed multiple little bigots" corner. The unrealistic expectations in a partner are a way of making sure he never gets one. That's me on the idle speculation bus anyway!

  • Upvote 3
  • I Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

Have any of you guys come across this dude? He’s a Trad Catholic. His blog posts are... something to behold. 

We've discussed him quite a bit, including a recent (in the past 2 weeks or so) spate of posts pertaining to his announcement that he's found "the one."

Something tells me that things may not go the way he imagines they will:

Quote

 

This post will likely be my last one. It should not have taken nine years and hundreds of postings, for what has developed inadvertently into a voice in the far-left New England states for Catholic Tradition, patriotism, and conservatism....I have a crush on a semi-famous young Catholic woman from a Republican family....

It's very difficult to contact her, but it would be an honor to meet her. She is about 6 to 8 years younger than I am, which I don't mind since my Navy veteran brother's wife is eight years younger than him. (This would be helpful in developing a relationship plus...) 

If for some reason she's in a relationship with someone else, that's fine. I've been praying for her and her family daily for the past week now, and I'm on her side no matter what she does. 

The same holds true if she wishes to join the convent, although I can't picture her has a nun! 

It would be the honor of my lifetime to meet her (and possibly her family). 

 

 

  • Upvote 1
  • Disgust 1
  • Confused 4
  • Rufus Bless 3
  • WTF 4
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

We've discussed him quite a bit, including a recent (in the past 2 weeks or so) spate of posts pertaining to his announcement that he's found "the one."

Something tells me that things may not go the way he imagines they will:

 

So the “big announcement “ is that he has a crush on a woman who doesn’t know he exists? How is that worthy of a long post about his quest for a trad maiden being over?

  • Upvote 10
  • WTF 2
  • Haha 4
  • I Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

How is that worthy of a long post about his quest for a trad maiden being over?

He's delusional and he may have other issues, as discussed in those threads. All that adds up to an impossible situation.

In a way, it's sad & depressing because it seems unlikely that the young woman he speaks about or indeed any other young woman would ever want much to do with him. That said, I hope that he does not pose a danger to anyone else or himself should he try to act on his delusions.

Edited by hoipolloi
  • Upvote 2
  • I Agree 18
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think part of it too with groups like SSPX was that people wanted to go to the same mass they did growing up or that their parents or grandparents did. And for these people the only church offering such Masses wasn’t the legit church but one from one of these breakaway groups so they went there and got sucked in by these groups. In the Archdiocese of Dubuque there’s only a couple parishes that even offer the Mass so services by the legit church may be hundreds of miles away. If an apparently legit Latin Mass is being offered only a few miles away people may choose to go to that and get sucked in to these cults.

These groups aren’t real well known and don’t attract much publicity. (Of course except when one of their members says out loud what they all actually think about Jewish people, non Catholics, women, or minorities). Over the past five years the SSPX was mentioned once in the local paper and I don’t know if they actually have a presence around here. Not going to find out either.

  • Upvote 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, 47of74 said:

I think part of it too with groups like SSPX was that people wanted to go to the same mass they did growing up or that their parents or grandparents did. And for these people the only church offering such Masses wasn’t the legit church but one from one of these breakaway groups so they went there and got sucked in by these groups. In the Archdiocese of Dubuque there’s only a couple parishes that even offer the Mass so services by the legit church may be hundreds of miles away. If an apparently legit Latin Mass is being offered only a few miles away people may choose to go to that and get sucked in to these cults.

These groups aren’t real well known and don’t attract much publicity. (Of course except when one of their members says out loud what they all actually think about Jewish people, non Catholics, women, or minorities). Over the past five years the SSPX was mentioned once in the local paper and I don’t know if they actually have a presence around here. Not going to find out either.

The Latin Mass parish that I attended was 100 percent approved by the archdiocese and the Vatican and it was still a magnet for all kinds of trad crazy. There was a large SSPX faction within the parish, which was weird because there was/is a SSPX chapel in another part of the city. They tended to homeschool and didn’t want to associate with people outside that clique and they caused so much drama that I left, which I realize now was a good thing. Anybody who is interested in the Latin Mass for aesthetic or nostalgic reasons isn’t going to fit into the Latin Mass subculture if they don’t agree with the political reactionarism, homeschool only, Theology of the Skirt, birth control makes the Blessed Virgin cry stuff. 

  • Upvote 7
  • I Agree 1
  • Thank You 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The Latin Mass parish that I attended was 100 percent approved by the archdiocese and the Vatican and it was still a magnet for all kinds of trad crazy. There was a large SSPX faction within the parish, which was weird because there was/is a SSPX chapel in another part of the city. They tended to homeschool and didn’t want to associate with people outside that clique and they caused so much drama that I left, which I realize now was a good thing. Anybody who is interested in the Latin Mass for aesthetic or nostalgic reasons isn’t going to fit into the Latin Mass subculture if they don’t agree with the political reactionarism, homeschool only, Theology of the Skirt, birth control makes the Blessed Virgin cry stuff. 

I wonder what curriculum those Traditional Catholic homeschoolers would have used .  About the only Catholic based home study materials I have ever heard of is Seton Homeschool .  But of course , being that my family is evangelical , I have never had first hand knowledge of what exactly the subject matter is like .  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The Latin Mass parish that I attended was 100 percent approved by the archdiocese and the Vatican and it was still a magnet for all kinds of trad crazy. There was a large SSPX faction within the parish, which was weird because there was/is a SSPX chapel in another part of the city. They tended to homeschool and didn’t want to associate with people outside that clique and they caused so much drama that I left, which I realize now was a good thing. Anybody who is interested in the Latin Mass for aesthetic or nostalgic reasons isn’t going to fit into the Latin Mass subculture if they don’t agree with the political reactionarism, homeschool only, Theology of the Skirt, birth control makes the Blessed Virgin cry stuff. 

I remember how much trouble it was to find the text of the Latin Mass online that wasn't on one of these trad magnet sites.  The text itself is easy enough to find, but it's often on sites that are full of conspiracy theories, Antisemitism, and complain about everything that happened since John XXIII became Pope in 1958.

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Marmion said:

I wonder what curriculum those Traditional Catholic homeschoolers would have used .  About the only Catholic based home study materials I have ever heard of is Seton Homeschool .  But of course , being that my family is evangelical , I have never had first hand knowledge of what exactly the subject matter is like .  

I don’t know about specific curriculums, but Catholic homeschooling tends to be heavily into the classical curriculum, with an emphasis on Latin for obvious reasons. Consequently, a lot of pre-Vatican II Catholic school books have been reprinted for homeschool use, so I imagine those play a big role. I remember one Catholic online bookseller warning for parents to be aware that a history book it was selling from the 1950s spoke too favorably about the UN, which speaks a lot about the crowd that buys such books.

  • Upvote 3
  • WTF 5
  • Haha 2
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/20/2019 at 5:47 PM, hoipolloi said:

We've discussed him quite a bit, including a recent (in the past 2 weeks or so) spate of posts pertaining to his announcement that he's found "the one."

Something tells me that things may not go the way he imagines they will:

 

But is she called Jillian?

  • Upvote 3
  • Haha 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aine I know some of my friends who are Catholic weren't planning on sending their kids to a Catholic school because they didn't feel that it was 'Catholic' enough to warrant doing so.  Instead they were planning on sending them to the local public school.  Historically the public schools were very Protestant which is why there are so many Catholic schools.  The Catholic schools are also the reason that there is so much public funding of private schools in Australia (prior to the public funding they essentially ran off the smell of an oily rag).

In regards to the Latin Mass catholics, a friend I had in grades 11 and 12 was Latin Mass Catholic.  She was homeschooled until the end of grade 10.  My mother used to work with her mother and said that they didn't send their kids to a standard Catholic school because they didn't want them 'tainted' by other beliefs or some such and there was no Latin Mass Catholic school in the area.

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny. I grew up with the Latin Mass. I, in fifth grade, studied and learned all the responses,but could not become an altar server because..... no penis. I've heard a lot of arguments, but... still? Mass in the vernacular is still not good? Wecan understand what it going on, but that's not good?

 

Spare me.

  • Upvote 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/18/2019 at 12:25 PM, Hane said:

@Cleopatra7, I was recently surprised to learn from a priest that the awarding of the title “Monsignor” and the wearing of the beretta are on the wane.

Pope Francis actually suspended awarding that title that shortly after becoming pope as one step toward ending the rampant clericalism in the church and pushing for a more modest and pastoral priesthood. 

The diocese I grew up had been seeking it for every single priest that reached 20 years of ordination. They have monsignors tripping on each other and I'm sure there were hard feelings from the ones near the honor in 2013. But it needs to be gone. It's just one more way that priests are put on a pedestal. That diocese is particularly bad about all but worshipping their priests and that policy as well as many others makes it worse. 

 

  • Upvote 3
  • Thank You 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funnily enough, the priest at my childhood parish was granted the title of Monsignor after fighting for girls to be allowed as altar servers!

  • Upvote 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

At my old parish, the priest wanted one of the parish council guys to become a deacon (which involves study and ordination). He agreed to do it only if girls were allowed to become altar servers.

  • Upvote 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kendra from Catholic All Year homeschools until middle school I think, I’m pretty sure she uses Rod & Staff for some things?

Her older kids go to an Opus Dei school, obvi ?

I wish more people on FJ snarked on her because GOMI fucking sucks and I hate going there. She’s interesting because while she’s very smart and in another life would probably be a fun person to hang out with, she’s DEEP into #tradcathlife and is so arrogant, holier than thou and sanctimonious. Of course you don’t even use NFP and don’t care if more kids come, Kendra, you live in an estate and your family is loaded. 

  • Upvote 5
  • I Agree 3
  • Thank You 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.