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The Rise of Fundamentalist Catholicism


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18 hours ago, Marmion said:

The video link you posted reminded me of a funny joke , plus a funny song .  

Those are great. I know I am draggin this off topic, but last one, it reminded me of this bit of Derry Girls

 

17 hours ago, anachronistic said:

I live just outside Boston and at a guess half or a third of my UU church was raised Catholic. I know a lot of Christmas/Easter Catholics who are quite liberal and have no problem with gay people getting married but when I press them to put their money where their mouth is and stop being Catholic it’s unthinkable. I guess it’s my black and shite thinking, autistic brain that just doesn’t understand how you can be okay with institutional Catholicism of any kind and also be pro choice and for equal rights for gays.

I think a lot of it is just cultural. It would be like asking someone to stop being American or whatever. I am firmly of the belief that people can be cultural/secular *insert religion here*. Especially if that is a dominant culture in a country. Though this may be different in the US, I have never lived there.

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My parents are Catholic (I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic high school, Catholic college, etc.). 

I just found out this Christmas they attend 3 different churches depending on their schedule (one is even a Benedictine Abbey). 

Anyways, I asked them which congregation they belonged to, and they said oh none anymore. My mom decided to stop donating money to them because of the pedophile scandal.

I thought this was a good step. They participate in the culture they are familiar with, but have stopped funding the church. I was actually proud of my mom for this. 

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@anachronistic , as many as 70% of the members of my UU congregation were originally Catholic. We seem to have the greatest success with pastors who used to be Catholics themselves, as they “get” us better.

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23 hours ago, anachronistic said:

I live just outside Boston and at a guess half or a third of my UU church was raised Catholic. I know a lot of Christmas/Easter Catholics who are quite liberal and have no problem with gay people getting married but when I press them to put their money where their mouth is and stop being Catholic it’s unthinkable. I guess it’s my black and white thinking, autistic brain that just doesn’t understand how you can be okay with institutional Catholicism of any kind and also be pro choice and for equal rights for gays

Coincidentally , it just so happens that I am friends on Facebook with a transwoman whom is part of the Catholic parish in Boston .  In addition to what @medimus posted , she has told me that she's decided to stay Catholic , rather than defect over to the Episcopalians , for instance , due to the parish priest being remarkably LGBT friendly . { http://archive.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/06/14/priest_defends_inclusion_of_gays_lesbianshttps://www.glaad.org/2011/07/11/postponed-pride-mass-finally-happens-at-st-cecilias-in-boston  ,  https://josephsciambra.com/pro-gay-boston-parish-to-host-new-vatican-appointee-james-martin/ }

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I am a cradle Catholic. I consider myself a Catholic Christian. While the Church and I have had our differences, I haven't switched denominations because my problems are with the hierarchy of the church, NOT the liturgy. The liturgy, the readings, are what's important to me, not what some priest is spouting at the altar.

In terms of other denominations, well... I believe there are many paths to God. One way may be preferable to a person, but none is better than the other.

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3 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I am a cradle Catholic. I consider myself a Catholic Christian. While the Church and I have had our differences, I haven't switched denominations because my problems are with the hierarchy of the church, NOT the liturgy. The liturgy, the readings, are what's important to me, not what some priest is spouting at the altar.

In terms of other denominations, well... I believe there are many paths to God. One way may be preferable to a person, but none is better than the other.

I wonder what , if any , difference in liturgy there might be between Roman Catholic and Episcopal ?  https://episcopalchurch.org/library/article/what-difference-between-episcopal-church-and-roman-catholic-church   In particular , how would this relate to high church   Anglo-Catholicism ? 

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Very little,  IME. The Nicene Creed is worded slightly differently, and we still say "And also with you" instead of "And with your spirit."

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On 1/6/2020 at 8:19 PM, anachronistic said:

 but I’ve googled and googled and can’t figure out what the heck Catholic monarchism is. How can they have a monarchy if their priests are all celibate? And if the king isn’t supposed to be a priest then who the heck is supposed to get the crown, it’s not like we have royalty in the US. I’m confused. 

I'm kinda of becoming obsessed with the Catholic monarchists on Twitter. So far I can report the following from the crazy trenches:

1. Many seem to believe monarchism is the most Catholic-approved form of government. Both because of its mention in the Bible and also its similarity to the structure of the Roman Catholic Church. They don't want priests to be kings, just a return to royal families with divine rights. 

2. I haven't seen them address the preferred government structure of North America (though they do think we need to "embrace our Spanish colonial roots" more). They mostly focus on bringing back/empowering European monarchies. 

2. A lot seem to enfold monarchism into their general nostalgia for European cultural norms from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. When Poles and Italians and Austrians still went to church every Sunday, didn't have children out of wedlock, the women wore dresses and stayed home, et cetera.

3. They also seem to think monarchism is responsible for the art and architecture produced during these times--which they hold as a superior expression of beauty. (They're big on "cultural Marxism" fears.)

4. They have a super hard on for the Hapsburgs in particular ( you know, those gloriously beautiful, wise  leaders with brilliant military strategy...) I don't hear them talk about the Bourbons as much for some reason. 

Edited by nausicaa
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7 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

In terms of other denominations, well... I believe there are many paths to God. One way may be preferable to a person, but none is better than the other.

Quick thread drift: I absolutely agree. There’s a picture I like that really drives this message home for me. Granted, it only shows three religions but it’s nice regardless... 

EFF3955C-5444-41A7-9C3C-7F43C3859281.jpeg

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5 hours ago, nausicaa said:

3. They also seem to think monarchism is responsible for the art and architecture produced during these times--which they hold as a superior expression of beauty.

Like Venice. Or Renaissance's Comuni (Communes, as you say in English make me think of hippies) /s

I think (this is a reflection after listening to my mother's favourite radio, Radio Maria, whose director likes to talk about the history of the RCC revising it "just a little bit" to suit his preferences, ie the massacre of the Cathars becomes "successfully dealing with the heresy", my sister and I had a stroke hearing that one) that Catholic monarchists haven't overcome the loss of status that came with the spread of Enlightenment ideas and more specifically with the French Revolution.

The French Revolution is the root of all evils for them. Those pesky third state peasants that refused to keep dying from hunger to keep the clergy and the nobility in their privileged state, how dared they?

From an historical pov they are right when they identify the French Revolution as the pivotal point in the history of the church. The power of the clergy wasn't a given anymore, all the power of the Pope couldn't prevent a bunch of atheists storming Europe spreading ideas of egalité, fraternité, liberté and laicité. The law didn't flow from the sovereign anymore, justified and legitimised by the divine right of the sovereign and ultimately caused by God himself through its terrestrial emissaries. Laws were chosen by people, justice was administered without invoking superior powers. Not having to appease the whims of the upper classes, laws were more reliable and their application was perceived as more fair and considerate of commoneers' situations. People learned that they didn't need to fear god's power. The divine right wasn't enough to scare people into compliance anymore.

The French Revolution, as often happens with revolutions, didn't end well. It was soon hijacked by personal interests of some charismatic leaders. But the genie was out of the bag, the Pandora box was open and there was no way to go back. In hindsight the Restoration was a failure on the long term. And in a century, most of the European monarchies were gone and the Pope's sovereign power was reduced to a less than a square kilometre and a permanent observer seat at the UN.

Republics are lay states with no need to seek justification from superior powers to legitimise themselves and as such they can freely choose their laws without needing to appease the Bible thumping Talibans. Said Talibans are pissed because their ideas tend to be unpopular and as such they have little hope to see them adopted as the law of the land by popular consensus, divine right was easier for them hence their longing and idealisation of monarchies.

ETA I forgot to mention racism and sexism, imho those have a big part in the current nostalgia for a monarchic past. I mean why now? Because while the US (and a good part of Europe) have shown that you can be a slave holding racist Republic, in the end, if you follow the principles of liberté, egalité and fraternité till their logical ends you have no other choice than forsake racism and sexism.

Edited by laPapessaGiovanna
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13 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I am a cradle Catholic. I consider myself a Catholic Christian. While the Church and I have had our differences, I haven't switched denominations because my problems are with the hierarchy of the church, NOT the liturgy. The liturgy, the readings, are what's important to me, not what some priest is spouting at the altar.

In terms of other denominations, well... I believe there are many paths to God. One way may be preferable to a person, but none is better than the other.

This is pretty much my philosophy as well.

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@medimus I love Derry Girls and Sister Michael is the best! I had to use subtitles to understand some of it, and wish a season was longer than six episodes. 

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My parents were Catholics and baptized me Catholic before getting into Protestant Fundamentalism. I've thought about going "back" to the Catholic church to fight from within for more progressive issues. If people keep leaving, the Church will never change. I feel like there is more of a chance for Catholicism to be changed rather than Protestantism. I feel Protestantism is doomed. 

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19 hours ago, meep said:

My parents were Catholics and baptized me Catholic before getting into Protestant Fundamentalism. I've thought about going "back" to the Catholic church to fight from within for more progressive issues. If people keep leaving, the Church will never change. I feel like there is more of a chance for Catholicism to be changed rather than Protestantism. I feel Protestantism is doomed. 

With all due respect , and in all sincerity , I would wonder how exactly Roman Catholicism is supposed to be changed from within , due to internal popular pressure , when the ecclesiastical polity seems to lack any degree of democracy . https://www.gotquestions.org/church-polity.html  Even the most fundamentalist Protestant churches on the other hand , tends to have a board of elders , elected by the members of a congregation , which then has the power to choose , and if deemed best replace the pastor .  I feel that this creates , for better or worse , a form of public accountability .  

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On 1/12/2020 at 7:19 PM, Marmion said:

With all due respect , and in all sincerity , I would wonder how exactly Roman Catholicism is supposed to be changed from within , due to internal popular pressure , when the ecclesiastical polity seems to lack any degree of democracy . https://www.gotquestions.org/church-polity.html  Even the most fundamentalist Protestant churches on the other hand , tends to have a board of elders , elected by the members of a congregation , which then has the power to choose , and if deemed best replace the pastor .  I feel that this creates , for better or worse , a form of public accountability .  

Difference of perspective I suppose. It *should* create a form a public accountability but in my experience, it doesn't. And when members disagree, there is no unity or consequences - it's people stomping away, "you're not even a REAL Christian," and starting their own 328th denomination for the TrUe BeLiEvErS like themselves - instead of trying to solve the issue. The Catholic Church has changed a lot over the centuries, with a lot of growing pains to go along with it for sure. But to be clear, that comment was more me thinking out loud and not as an "expert" by any means. 

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Like @meep, for a long time I stayed a devoted Catholic in hopes of helping foster change from within. In the ‘80s through the early ‘90s, I saw some glimmers of empowerment for the laity, then saw them fade in my own archdiocese as lay power diminished, gender-inclusive language ended, and extra kneeling in the Mass returned. Around that time, I started recognizing my very real doubts about its theology and my strong desire to align myself with a church that stood up for the rights of women and the LGBTQI+ community, so I joined the UU Church.

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On 12/30/2019 at 5:49 PM, SoybeanQueen said:

I know catholics have other books that are equally or more important to them than the Bible, 

What books do you mean? I don't know of any that are "more important to them" than the Bible. (I'm not nor have ever been Catholic, but know a lot about the main Christian denominations.)

On 1/12/2020 at 12:31 AM, HA88 said:

@medimus I love Derry Girls and Sister Michael is the best! I had to use subtitles to understand some of it, and wish a season was longer than six episodes. 

Yes!! All three things I agree with!

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10 hours ago, scoutsadie said:
On 12/30/2019 at 5:49 PM, SoybeanQueen said:

I know catholics have other books that are equally or more important to them than the Bible, 

What books do you mean? I don't know of any that are "more important to them" than the Bible. (I'm not nor have ever been Catholic, but know a lot about the main Christian denominations.)

I would like to know what @SoybeanQueen means too. I am Catholic and there isn't a book more important to us than the Bible. We have the Catechism of the Catholic Church that explains a lot about the church but it isn't more important than the Bible. 

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I know Roman Catholics include a couple more books in their bible than other sects... they're not MORE important, they're just added. The book of Wisdom is one..

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On 1/12/2020 at 12:37 AM, meep said:

I feel Protestantism is doomed

This strikes me as strange, since Protestantism is so varied, and there are some very progressive churches out there. E.g. Unitarians, United Church of Canada, Quakers, etc.

If you think Evangelical protestantism (in the US) is doomed, I could see your point, since it seems to be so wrapped up in the US culture wars. Perhaps we'll just see a greater and greater divide between progressive and conservative Protestant denominations in the US.

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2 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I know Roman Catholics include a couple more books in their bible than other sects... they're not MORE important, they're just added. The book of Wisdom is one..

Yes , from what I understand , it's called the Apocrypha , by Protestants .

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/bible/the-apocrypha ,https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/5-myths-about-7-books.html  , https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Bible.html }  I remember how I first learned of the existance of these additional Bible stories , which evangelicals do not consider to be canon , upon watching " Lamb Chop's Special Chanukah " , on PBS .  I'd ask my mother why I hadn't heard of this  before , and she told me that our Bible doesn't contain the Books of Maccabees , like the Catholics do . 

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3 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I know Roman Catholics include a couple more books in their bible than other sects... they're not MORE important, they're just added. The book of Wisdom is one..

This is correct. But those books are in the Bible not in addition to the bible. The original FJ said that Catholics have books (I took to mean outside the Bible) equally or more important than the Bible (like the book of Mormon is to Mormons). If that is what the poster meant, that is not true. 

The "added" books were in the Bible forever and then one of the reformations happened and the Protestant took the books out of the Bible. So one could argue that the Protestant Bible removed books from the Bible. (ran off to wiki, for better timeline than my memory) - This all happened in the 16th century and the more favored way of saying it is most Protestant churches only accepted works of the Hebrew Bible, the other books come mainly from the Greek old testament. The deuterocanonical books have traces way back to the 1st century. 

The books are - Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Sirach, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, additional text to Esther and Daniel. 

wiki reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books 

ditto what @Marmion said. 

Edited by quiversR4hunting
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At a retreat, I was chatting with a priest and said I was surprised that a certain (fairly minor—can’t remember what it was) piece of Catholic teaching wasn’t in the gospels. He told me that not all Catholic teaching comes directly from the Bible, but also from various oral and written traditions.

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3 hours ago, Hane said:

He told me that not all Catholic teaching comes directly from the Bible, but also from various oral and written traditions

I think this is true of all Christian denominations, but Catholicism isn't so cagey about it, and has had more time to develop an official canon of writers and thinkers.

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11 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

I think this is true of all Christian denominations, but Catholicism isn't so cagey about it, and has had more time to develop an official canon of writers and thinkers.

This is not true however for churches that hold to the doctrine of " Sola Scriptura " . 

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