M is for Mama 5: Praying for Lunch

[kesmom]

This is probably the nicest birthday tribute she has given any of her daughters, ridiculous as it is. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Parentifying a child is nothing to brag about:

[bea]

They filled up the Christmas Child boxes with stuff from the Dollar Store.
I’m sure the kids overseas will find these random purchases meaningful and relevant.

[SassyPants]

8 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Parentifying a child is nothing to brag about:

I hope his father was there and orchestrating the care of the younger children. Even GM does not care for all the kids at the same time. Shame on her if she is leaving all those kids unattended in that firetrap of a house while she goes to her “job” in town.

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I hope his father was there and orchestrating the care of the younger children. Even GM does not care for all the kids at the same time. Shame on her if she is leaving all those kids unattended in that firetrap of a house while she goes to her “job” in town.

I honestly doubt it. He travels so much for work that she must leave Ezra and Simon to look after the kids sometimes. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

So I'm completely untrained in psychology, sociology, family studies etc. and I have no kids, a.k.a I know nothing.

Can someone educate me about what the line is between parentifying a child and giving children age-appropriate responsibilities? I imagine our culture has changed quite a bit on this over the years. It makes sense to me that large working- or middle-class families of 100+ years ago would have outsourced a lot of labour including child-rearing to older children. Or if they were wealthy, outsourced that to domestic workers.

I'm trying to put Abbie in context of all these reports you hear that kids don't have enough responsibility/resilience these days. Is the difference that Abbie's kids have to do so much emotional labour, keeping her happy and performing a "servant's heart" to her? Or that they're pretty much always on parenting duty, not helping out here and there? That, and Abbie always criticizing her kids and being negative to them and behind their backs, rubs me the wrong way but I don't necessarily think encouraging them to think of the others, help guide their siblings, help their siblings get read etc. is necessarily a bad thing.

I'm sure Abbie *thinks* she's teaching kids responsibilty, not encouraging them to walk on eggshells for fear of setting her off. I'm curious what the line would be. Of course there may be no clear answer out there...

 

[Walking Cat Bed]

10 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

So I'm completely untrained in psychology, sociology, family studies etc. and I have no kids, a.k.a I know nothing.

Can someone educate me about what the line is between parentifying a child and giving children age-appropriate responsibilities?

 

My background in psychology/sociology is mostly self-taught, so I'm not an expert (and I'm a childfree curmudgeon, so I'm DEFINITELY not a parenting expert), but from my understanding:

Parentification involves making a child primarily responsible for significant responsibilities. For example: a seven-year-old has a new sibling. Age-appropriate responsibilities might be taking the baby's laundry to the laundry room and helping to pick up toys, etc, and occasionally helping with bottles. Parentification is expecting that seven-year-old to keep up with diapers throughout the day or requiring the seven-year-old to prevent any kind of crying from the baby.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

13 hours ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

My background in psychology/sociology is mostly self-taught, so I'm not an expert (and I'm a childfree curmudgeon, so I'm DEFINITELY not a parenting expert), but from my understanding:

Parentification involves making a child primarily responsible for significant responsibilities. For example: a seven-year-old has a new sibling. Age-appropriate responsibilities might be taking the baby's laundry to the laundry room and helping to pick up toys, etc, and occasionally helping with bottles. Parentification is expecting that seven-year-old to keep up with diapers throughout the day or requiring the seven-year-old to prevent any kind of crying from the baby.

That makes sense to me, thanks! Sounds like Abbie's consistent expectation that Ezra and Simon do a lot for the younger kids (and anticipate problems to Abbie doesn't have to know about them) is no bueno...

[Shiny]

On 11/27/2019 at 12:26 PM, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

So I'm completely untrained in psychology, sociology, family studies etc. and I have no kids, a.k.a I know nothing.

Can someone educate me about what the line is between parentifying a child and giving children age-appropriate responsibilities? I imagine our culture has changed quite a bit on this over the years. It makes sense to me that large working- or middle-class families of 100+ years ago would have outsourced a lot of labour including child-rearing to older children. Or if they were wealthy, outsourced that to domestic workers.

I'm trying to put Abbie in context of all these reports you hear that kids don't have enough responsibility/resilience these days. Is the difference that Abbie's kids have to do so much emotional labour, keeping her happy and performing a "servant's heart" to her? Or that they're pretty much always on parenting duty, not helping out here and there? That, and Abbie always criticizing her kids and being negative to them and behind their backs, rubs me the wrong way but I don't necessarily think encouraging them to think of the others, help guide their siblings, help their siblings get read etc. is necessarily a bad thing.

I'm sure Abbie *thinks* she's teaching kids responsibilty, not encouraging them to walk on eggshells for fear of setting her off. I'm curious what the line would be. Of course there may be no clear answer out there...

 

I think the main difference between age-appropriate responsibilities and making your kid a third parent, is how much time it takes. It's fine to have your 12 year old make breakfast for the siblings, or even to take care of them one morning here and there. It's NOT ok to make it a regular thing or guilt the child into regular parenting.  Abbie does a lot of emotional manipulation so that her children think they have to do all this parenting and protecting, when really it's not their job. 

It also crosses the line when you have to ask- who is taking care of the older sibling? Do they get someone to cook for them and comfort them? Do they get a safe place to cry and be emotional? If not, it has crossed over. 

[AmazonGrace]

I think it's largely a matter of whether the child is expected to help out beside the adults, with adult supervision,  or to act alone and replace the adult supervision in the scenario.

Is there an adult at hand to solve any problems?  Does the helpful child get enough adult supervision and support for him or herself? What if something goes wrong? How much responsibility does the child bear if things go wrong? Are they mature enough to understand and to be trusted with whatever they're supposed to be doing? Does the child get enough time for play,  education and rest? Are the child's tasks a guilt trip? What happens if something doesn't get done?

[SuperNova]

I had to read this twice because I was sure that I misunderstood. But nope. Abbie is a disgusting person and shouldn't be a mother. Imagine saying this about little people you claim to love. 

[SusanAtTheLastBattle]

5 minutes ago, SuperNova said:

I had to read this twice because I was sure that I misunderstood. But nope. Abbie is a disgusting person and shouldn't be a mother. Imagine saying this about little people you claim to love. 

That’s the whole ballgame, isn’t it? She is making “an investment in the economics of eternity,” not caring for individual children she loves.

[Ozlsn]

35 minutes ago, SuperNova said:

I had to read this twice because I was sure that I misunderstood. But nope. Abbie is a disgusting person and shouldn't be a mother. Imagine saying this about little people you claim to love. 

The first bit ("I need a break") sounds pretty standard to me, especially as we wind down to the end of the year and everything goes nuts. The rest and the whole "investment in the economics of eternity" thing though, WTAF? 

Abbie for the love of God send your older kids to school to invest in their futures, and invest in birth control rather than pretending it's all about eternity. You don't get Brownie points for fake martyrdom, geez.

[SuperNova]

3 hours ago, SusanAtTheLastBattle said:

That’s the whole ballgame, isn’t it? She is making “an investment in the economics of eternity,” not caring for individual children she loves.

What really gets me is that it is beyond her scope to imagine that motherhood isn't the same struggle for other moms as it is for her. Actually wanting your children changes the way you view raising them. Of course moms get burnt out and need a break, but seeing your children's exsistence as "pure unadulterated stupidity" is more than a red flag for unhappiness. It's a lighthouse beacon turned up to high.

[3splenty]

I wish Braggie could see the kids she has as what she says they are--blessings.  You know what, Braggie?  Let them help decorate the Christmas tree!  Let them help decorate cookies.  Your pictures would still be Facebook or Instagram worthy if you would acknowledge your children as children, not carefully posed props.  Our poor Christmas tree has been the obsession of our cat, Walter.  He was batting ornaments, swatting at the lights, gnawing on the branches and hiding under the skirt (I would have taken pictures, but he wouldn't sit still!).  I would rather see pictures of real life rather than carefully curated designer photos.

[Shiny]

I really wish she would see a therapist about her feelings. Totally normal for a person to want alone time or time a way from their kids, but she sees motherhood as a trail to get through. Seeing motherhood as "stupidity" is a really alarming take. 

As far as decorating without your kids, it didn't even occur to me that someone would want to do that. We don't actually celebrate Christmas, but my kids went over to the neighbors house to help her decorate. She lives alone and asked if the kids could decorate the tree. That's not the first time they've been asked to participate in the decorating of some one's home or business. Holiday decor is more fun when you can share it, I think. 

Personally, having kids has been the best thing I could have done for myself. I had raging social anxiety before my kids. For some reason, having a baby has a buffer helped me get over it. I'm quite the extrovert now. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

My tree looks a hot mess. There are like 5 ornaments on one branch and big gaps where there isn’t a single ornament. It’s full of homemade ornaments that are quite messy looking because they were made by a preschooler. But my kids had a blast decorating it. They love it. It makes me happy that decorating makes them happy. We will have a perfect tree when they are teens and they think decorating a tree is “lame” or “boring.” 

[AmazonGrace]

I admit wanting a bit of a break sometimes (and I was able to get them, thankfully) but it never occurred to me to think about the kids in terms of, "what could be worse for your self care". 

Plenty of things have been worse for my self care than the kids i love

 

[NakedKnees]

I think she intended for the beginning of that post to be clickbait, but God, how inappropriate. I don't like to mommy-shame, but I think it's warranted here: WTF image of parenthood is she setting up for her kids? It's frightening to think about how much support all of these children will likely need in order to have normal lives after all of this.

I don't stop in on this thread often, but man, Braggy is just one of the most obnoxious subjects of FJ that I ever did see.

[TuringMachine]

Our tree growing up was a hodgepodge of preschooler made ornaments, some homemade ones my mom made that were really old cd's with ribbons around them, some nicer ornament sets that were inherited or gifted, and all the weird ones my mom had collected over the years because it turns out my Jewish mother loves Christmas ornaments and also her favorite artist is Edward Gorey. My brother and I got to lead the way with decorating, so there was no logical reasoning for any placements. It was a fun family activity.

Braggie just sees holiday decorations as a way to show off to guests and followers.  

[Ali]

My tree will be a big mess this year like it has every year since my oldest has been old enough to help. The Christmas tree Facebook memories that pop up bring me joy every year. The thought of it looking perfect someday makes me sad because it will mean my kids are no longer young.

What does annoy me about decorating is the stupid elf my MIL bought without consulting us. I hate that thing! I am ready to send it to her house and have her send daily photographic proof to the kids of what it has been up to overnight.

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, Ali said:

My tree will be a big mess this year like it has every year since my oldest has been old enough to help. The Christmas tree Facebook memories that pop up bring me joy every year. The thought of it looking perfect someday makes me sad because it will mean my kids are no longer young.

What does annoy me about decorating is the stupid elf my MIL bought without consulting us. I hate that thing! I am ready to send it to her house and have her send daily photographic proof to the kids of what it has been up to overnight.

I’ve told everyone in my family that the elf is spawn of Satan and we will never have one. I have enough stress during the holidays. I’m not going to move that thing around every night! 

[Xan]

11 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’ve told everyone in my family that the elf is spawn of Satan and we will never have one. I have enough stress during the holidays. I’m not going to move that thing around every night! 

That elf is creepy.  My daughter was gifted one but it scared the children.  They were worried that he'd sneak into their rooms at night.  She sent it to my house and I conveniently "lost" it.

[SuperNova]

I'm so bummed out that over the last few years the elf has been turned into a little snitch. I have an awesome collection of the original elves from the 50's and I can't enjoy them as much as I used to. Someone always brings up the new one when they see mine. 

[mhainlen]

13 hours ago, Ali said:

My tree will be a big mess this year like it has every year since my oldest has been old enough to help. The Christmas tree Facebook memories that pop up bring me joy every year. The thought of it looking perfect someday makes me sad because it will mean my kids are no longer young.

What does annoy me about decorating is the stupid elf my MIL bought without consulting us. I hate that thing! I am ready to send it to her house and have her send daily photographic proof to the kids of what it has been up to overnight.

I’ve seen some great FB posts where the parents show the elf with a broken leg and say that he has to stay in the same place for 6 weeks.  Or that he had a concussion and was on bed rest, etc. Lets you put the elf out, give it a good story, and then forget about it until next year.