John David and Abbie 9: Yet Another Baby Watch - Grace is Here!

[lumpentheologie]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Some workplaces provide them for free onsite.

I've worked for two companies that did that, it saves them on sick time and gets them wellness program head pats from the insurance company.

Yes, I've seen that.  Sorry, I was unclear.  I meant I can't imagine American insurance companies covering things that aren't medically recommended. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

Yes, I've seen that.  Sorry, I was unclear.  I meant I can't imagine American insurance companies covering things that aren't medically recommended. 

Oh, no you were totally clear.  I was just adding that one as it's a resource for a small group of Americans.  I wasn't clear - just piggy backing on your post  

[Born Skeptic]

53 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I just want to add in case some might not know that insurance will cover your flu shot in Germany even if it's not officially recommended. (I can't imagine something like this ever happening in the States). I was willing to pay for mine out of pocket this year, but the insurance covered it, and my husband's too. It seems like European countries are starting to come around to the idea of vaccinating everyone against the flu. 

Actually, most insurance plans in the US do cover flu shots.  Government sponsored plans (Medicare, Government employee, Military, etc) cover them.  All private and non-grandfathered group health plans are required under the Affordable Care Act to cover all CDC recommended vaccines in full ($0 deductible or co-pay).  The CDC recommends the annual flu vaccine for  all age groups.  Additionally many employers offer flu shot clinics or health fares.  Most large universities offer flu shots to students (usually in exchange for University "swag" like t-shirts or water bottles.  It is difficult to check out of most pharmacies without them asking if you would like a flu shot.

edited to add* Although not all public schools do this, my local public schools offer flu shots to students at the start of flu season.  Many families opt out.

Oddly, even though it is recommended by the CDC, Medicare does not cover the shingles vaccine.  Usually secondary insurance will pick up the cost.  (Government sponsored plans do not have to follow the ACA regulations.)  But not all seniors have secondary insurance and those who do sometimes assume that if medicare won't cover it, their secondary coverage won't either.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Born Skeptic
add info

[lumpentheologie]

22 minutes ago, Born Skeptic said:

Actually, most insurance plans in the US do cover flu shots.  Government sponsored plans (Medicare, Government employee, Military, etc) cover them.  All private and non-grandfathered group health plans are required under the Affordable Care Act to cover all CDC recommended vaccines in full ($0 deductible or co-pay).  The CDC recommends the annual flu vaccine for  all age groups.  Additionally many employers offer flu shot clinics or health fares.  Most large universities offer flu shots to students (usually in exchange for University "swag" like t-shirts or water bottles.  It is difficult to check out of most pharmacies without them asking if you would like a flu shot.

Yes, they do!  Sorry, I wasn't talking about the flu specifically, just about insurance companies paying for things that aren't officially recommended in whatever country they operate in.  I particularly meant it in light of American insurance often not paying for things that are recommended (in my and others' experience). 

[neuroticcat]

I’m for vaccinations in general but I do think the CDC has a pretty ridiculous overboard schedule. The TDaP is a great example. For the most part if your childhood boosters were done you likely need only one follow up for life. Maybe. 

This is evidenced by different schedules in different countries. Or titer tests which show immunity decades after childhood boosters. I got tired of being pushed for the shot and had my titers tested. Tetanus immunity is still solid from a 20 years ago booster and my pertussis immunity from childhood shots.

I think most antivax propaganda is junk science but the financial kickbacks to doctors per shot and the big pharma connections to cdc are real. 

My kids are all vaccinated but as a parent I really loathe the fear mongering doctors often employ or the disdain for anyone who might question standard practice. 

 

[Meggo]

16 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I’m for vaccinations in general but I do think the CDC has a pretty ridiculous overboard schedule. The TDaP is a great example. For the most part if your childhood boosters were done you likely need only one follow up for life. Maybe. 

This is evidenced by different schedules in different countries. Or titer tests which show immunity decades after childhood boosters. I got tired of being pushed for the shot and had my titers tested. Tetanus immunity is still solid from a 20 years ago booster and my pertussis immunity from childhood shots.

I think most antivax propaganda is junk science but the financial kickbacks to doctors per shot and the big pharma connections to cdc are real. 

My kids are all vaccinated but as a parent I really loathe the fear mongering doctors often employ or the disdain for anyone who might question standard practice. 

 

When I started to try getting pregnant - my doc suggested I get my titers checked for MMR since that can be REALLY bad during pregnancy. I was no longer immune to one of the letters (Rubella?) & got the shot. And I'm glad because we had an outbreak not far from me right after I got my shot. I didn't remember getting the original shot - but I know for a fact my mom vax'd and did it on schedule (she's a rule follower and also in the medical field - so no way was she going to discount science)

I think checking for titers is a great thing. "Hey - you had all these shots 30 years ago. Maybe we should see if you're still immune to everything?" Do it on a milestone - like trying to get pregnant, going off to college, when you turn 40 - whatever. 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Meggo said:

When I started to try getting pregnant - my doc suggested I get my titers checked for MMR since that can be REALLY bad during pregnancy. I was no longer immune to one of the letters (Rubella?) & got the shot. And I'm glad because we had an outbreak not far from me right after I got my shot. I didn't remember getting the original shot - but I know for a fact my mom vax'd and did it on schedule (she's a rule follower and also in the medical field - so no way was she going to discount science)

I think checking for titers is a great thing. "Hey - you had all these shots 30 years ago. Maybe we should see if you're still immune to everything?" Do it on a milestone - like trying to get pregnant, going off to college, when you turn 40 - whatever. 

Since I worked in healthcare, my employer would periodically check MMR titers, and despite being vaccinated multiple times, I am never immune to measles. I don’t know how many of those injections that I’ve had in my lifetime.

[EmainMacha]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Since I worked in healthcare, my employer would periodically check MMR titers, and despite being vaccinated multiple times, I am never immune to measles. I don’t know how many of those injections that I’ve had in my lifetime.

I have this problem as well. I've been immunised against measles multiple times. And HepB. I haven't had levels checked recently but going from past experience I wouldn't be surprised if that immunity was lost by now.

I have immunity to mumps and rubella but I had those illnesses as a young child so it could be immunity from that.

[SweetJuly]

Here in Belgium it's standard practice to suggest a Tdap booster to all pregnant women (and their partners) in the third trimester. Apparently it not just ensures that your own immunity is up to date, but also protects the newborn against pertussis for the first weeks until they can receive the vaccine themselves. My husband and I both got the vaccine and asked our family to check and update their status as well if necessary.

Trying to look for further information on this, I came across a recent study that apparently shows a "blunted immune response to active, primary series immunisation in infants of women immunized with Tdap during pregnancy" (Halperin SA, et al. Clin Infect Dis. 2018;doi:10.1093/cid/ciy244/5053576.)

I got a little worried about what this could mean for my daughter as I got the Tdap booster during my pregnancy, and so I read the study which states "The clinical significance of the blunted immune response to pertussis antigens in infants of mothers immunized with Tdap is unclear. There is accumulating evidence from England and Wales [34, 35] and the United States [36] that maternal immunization with Tdap is effective in preventing pertussis in newborn infants. Because virtually all deaths from pertussis occur in infants <3 months of age [1–6], particularly in those who have not had a first dose of pertussis vaccine [11], maternal immunization is achieving its goal of preventing pertussis deaths in the first months of life. If antibody levels after the primary series are lower in infants of women immunized with Tdap, this could lead to an increased burden of pertussis disease in the second half of the first year of life or afterward. Early surveillance data from England and Wales [37] has not identified any increase in cases later in infancy, but longer follow-up is required. Although there is a potential for increased number of pertussis cases in later infancy, these are not usually associated with mortality; therefore, this outcome may be acceptable if pertussis deaths in early infancy are prevented."

This information was not provided in the reporting that I read about the study. Incorrect or incomplete reporting of scientific studies is often behind misinformation among the general public as not many people have the time or interest to read the actual study. I see that a lot among many of the women in my English-speaking mommy groups here in Brussels. They are all well-educated and well-read professionals working for NATO or the EU, so they consider themselves very well-informed, but most of them don't have a background in natural sciences. They will read the reporting, but not the actual study (or if they do, often fail to understand the results of the study), and then continue to spread skewed information with the absolute authority of an eloquent mommy warrior. At least they can usually be stopped if you produce the actual study or help interpret the statistics 

[heysmilinstrange]

On 2/19/2020 at 12:28 PM, Born Skeptic said:

Most large universities offer flu shots to students (usually in exchange for University "swag" like t-shirts or water bottles.  

Second this. I work at a very large public university in the US and they practically have bandits running out from behind trees and bushes to give everyone the flu shot. 

[bal maiden]

On 2/20/2020 at 2:57 PM, SassyPants said:

Since I worked in healthcare, my employer would periodically check MMR titers, and despite being vaccinated multiple times, I am never immune to measles. I don’t know how many of those injections that I’ve had in my lifetime.

I have the same issue with chicken pox. It’s not a standard vaccine here, but since I never had the illness as a kid, I had to actively seek out the vaccine and pay through the eyeballs to get it done. Still not immune. Got it again, again it was complicated and expensive to get, and again titers show I’m still not immune! I’m dreading the day my small kids get chicken pox and pass it on to me ?

[lexiloumarie]

On 2/21/2020 at 2:58 PM, bal maiden said:

I have the same issue with chicken pox. It’s not a standard vaccine here, but since I never had the illness as a kid, I had to actively seek out the vaccine and pay through the eyeballs to get it done. Still not immune. Got it again, again it was complicated and expensive to get, and again titers show I’m still not immune! I’m dreading the day my small kids get chicken pox and pass it on to me ?

I have the same issue. My sisters had chicken pox, my mother remembers a mild reaction from me, I was vaccinated multiple times....and nothing.  I'm hoping it means I won't get shingles then. Small favors? 

[fluffernutter]

I had chicken pox as a kid and have had shingles twice now. I'm only 47. Only lol. Shingles is awful. 

[Shiny]

On 2/19/2020 at 4:36 PM, neuroticcat said:

I’m for vaccinations in general but I do think the CDC has a pretty ridiculous overboard schedule. The TDaP is a great example. For the most part if your childhood boosters were done you likely need only one follow up for life. Maybe. 

This is evidenced by different schedules in different countries. Or titer tests which show immunity decades after childhood boosters. I got tired of being pushed for the shot and had my titers tested. Tetanus immunity is still solid from a 20 years ago booster and my pertussis immunity from childhood shots.

I think most antivax propaganda is junk science but the financial kickbacks to doctors per shot and the big pharma connections to cdc are real. 

My kids are all vaccinated but as a parent I really loathe the fear mongering doctors often employ or the disdain for anyone who might question standard practice. 

 

Anti-vax "science" is definitely junk but I think that doctors really helped fuel it. I thought anti-vax people were ridiculous until I had an immune compromised kid and had to space out/omit certain vaccinations. It took years and several doctors before I found one who understood. They couldn't answer basic questions about the vaccinations, if there were drug interactions, if there were contradictions with my kids disease. Thankfully we were able to find a specialist who helped us, but I certainly understand how these mothers turn to Dr. Google and become anti-vax. I say this as someone who NEEDS the people (and my other children) to be vaccinated. 

[Kelsey]

On 2/20/2020 at 9:57 AM, SassyPants said:

Since I worked in healthcare, my employer would periodically check MMR titers, and despite being vaccinated multiple times, I am never immune to measles. I don’t know how many of those injections that I’ve had in my lifetime.

I'm the same way with rubella.

 

I got TDap as a child and then tetanus alone as a teen. I didn't have anymore until the pediatric ICU required the TDap within I think it was 10 years to see my sibling's premie baby. 

[Syriana]

On 2/23/2020 at 9:34 PM, Shiny said:

Anti-vax "science" is definitely junk but I think that doctors really helped fuel it. I thought anti-vax people were ridiculous until I had an immune compromised kid and had to space out/omit certain vaccinations. It took years and several doctors before I found one who understood. They couldn't answer basic questions about the vaccinations, if there were drug interactions, if there were contradictions with my kids disease. Thankfully we were able to find a specialist who helped us, but I certainly understand how these mothers turn to Dr. Google and become anti-vax. I say this as someone who NEEDS the people (and my other children) to be vaccinated. 

Yes...oh so very much yes!  When you can't have a rational conversation about vaccines with your doctor, can't get answers to basic questions and they even deny a severe allergic reaction has been triggered when it's happened in front of them trust is lost.  When trust is lost you realise that while the 'science' isn't worth the space it takes to type it, the anti-vax brigade have at least one good point:

Someone isn't being honest about vaccines!

They're not lying about efficacy, toxins, autism or anything like that, but at least some doctors are not being honest about either their knowledge of possible contraindications or the possible side effects of vaccines (which are usually mild, but can be life-threatening).

 

[SassyPants]

I worked in PICUs and NICUs for 35 years, and at times, would need to give the first or second round of major childhood immunizations. I am not anti-vax, but I am anti giving kids a cocktail of medications all at the same time. My main reason for this opinion is because how would one know WHAT vaccine was the culprit if an adverse reaction occurred? At what other non-life threatening, emergent time would we inject a child with a plethora of substances all at once? I know why it’s done, time and money, but I do not agree with the practice. I would give 2-3 vaccines at a time, or the 5 in 1 as stand alone, but I was not introducing 7 foreign substances at one time, into an ailing/recuperating infant or child. Yes, this would anger some MDs, too bad. 

[OyToTheVey]

9 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I worked in PICUs and NICUs for 35 years, and at times, would need to give the first or second round of major childhood immunizations. I am not anti-vax, but I am anti giving kids a cocktail of medications all at the same time. My main reason for this opinion is because how would one know WHAT vaccine was the culprit if an adverse reaction occurred? At what other non-life threatening, emergent time would we inject a child with a plethora of substances all at once? I know why it’s done, time and money, but I do not agree with the practice. I would give 2-3 vaccines at a time, or the 5 in 1 as stand alone, but I was not introducing 7 foreign substances at one time, into an ailing/recuperating infant or child. Yes, this would anger some MDs, too bad. 

As someone who's worked around kids for years and years, I completely agree. I'm not an anti-vaxxer at all. I believe that if there's a vaccine, a child shouldn't die from polio ever again. But injecting small children with a cocktail of medications does seem too much. As you said, how does one know exactly which drug caused the reaction? Yes I know it's time and money but I think they should be spaced out at least a few months just to see if there's any reaction at all. 

Unpopular opinion: with all the hormones in our food and the antibiotics everywhere, I just don't trust the drug companies enough for mass vaccine injections. There's so many kids now with allergies, it doesn't feel right.

[medimus]

5 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

As someone who's worked around kids for years and years, I completely agree. I'm not an anti-vaxxer at all. I believe that if there's a vaccine, a child shouldn't die from polio ever again. But injecting small children with a cocktail of medications does seem too much. As you said, how does one know exactly which drug caused the reaction? Yes I know it's time and money but I think they should be spaced out at least a few months just to see if there's any reaction at all. 

Unpopular opinion: with all the hormones in our food and the antibiotics everywhere, I just don't trust the drug companies enough for mass vaccine injections. There's so many kids now with allergies, it doesn't feel right.

The reason the vaccines are combined is because the more there are, the less likely people are to get all of them and end up only partly vaccinated. A semi-vaccinated population can be more dangerous than a not vaccinated one for some things (defintely not for all things though!).

As an example, chickenpox vaccine is currently not a standard one in Belgium, the reasoning being: it was trialled and parent found another vaccination instance too much and most children get chickenpox very young in Belgium because of universal preschool from age 2.5 (which over 95% of kids attend). If only some children get the vaccine there will be less of the virus floating around which in general would be good, but would push up the age at which children get chickenpox, which would cause more complications. And more complications is exactely what a vaccine would be trying to avoid, so it makes no sense to add the chickenpox vaccine. 

A lot goes in to deciding the vaccine schedule.

[candygirl200413]

The CDC holds meetings 3-4x a year examining evidence based research aimed at vaccinations. It's not like they are just doing this willy-nilly. They include doctors/scientists/researchers/etc. in this organization to examine this research. 

[SassyPants]

19 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

The CDC holds meetings 3-4x a year examining evidence based research aimed at vaccinations. It's not like they are just doing this willy-nilly. They include doctors/scientists/researchers/etc. in this organization to examine this research. 

All well in good, but money always factors into decisions made. It is easier to give all the vaccines at the same time because it requires only 1 visit. I’m sure that algorithms t have been developed over time that compare adverse sequelae and how many drugs were given at that time, vs the % of people who do not show up to receive all required/advised vaccine doses. It’s obviously all a gamble because as we all know that with anything medically related there is risk, the greatest being death.

You just have to hope that you or your child is not in the group that something tragic happens, because at that point, it’s on you. In the past there was some guidance and compensation for those who suffered significant adverse reaction(s) associated with vaccines, but I’m not sure that program  is still in place.

Edited February 26, 2020 by SassyPants

[Screamapillar]

I'm 100% pro-vax but I am relieved that, since I'm done having babies, I never have to relive the stress of a baby receiving their first round of vaccinations. That and feeding them allergenic foods for the first time. 

[Born Skeptic]

6 hours ago, SassyPants said:

In the past there was some guidance and compensation for those who suffered significant adverse reaction(s) associated with vaccines, but I’m not sure that program  is still in place.

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund still exists.

 

[Peaches-n-Beans]

On 2/27/2020 at 8:42 AM, Born Skeptic said:

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund still exists.

 

Isn't that a quack organization? Like you could submit literally anything to it and even if it doesn't get you compensation it makes the list of "things caused by vaccines". Or is that a different one? 

[squiddysquid]

The allergic reactions you are talking about were usually due to egg protein in the cocktail, not the vaccine itself, which is why they switched it out wherever possible and ask for allergies.

Lot of the myths stem from old live vaccines that haven't been used in a long time. Same goes for Mercury in vaccines - that was decades ago.

As a doctor myself, rest assured I'd would lose my licence if I lied about complications. In the very very unlikely event of an allergic reaction - usually mild and can be dealt with at the GP clinic - and for crying out loud:

BETTER THAN DEATH from measles, polio (wich is back thanks to anti-vaxxers) etc.

The chances of dying of the actual disease are a lot higher than having an allergic reaction to the vaccine.

As for adverse reactions in the fine print - take any medication and read that info - you'll find the most ridiculous things on there - for legal reasons.

Once a parent complains of anything even if it can't remotely be linked to that medication, before even proving the parent was wrong - they'll put it on the fine print so nobody can sue them.