Mormon Massacre in Mexico - LeBarón Family

[Howl]

5 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Not to make people's heads spin or splinter any further, but The Daily Beast is saying it's all about the water.

Well, if true, they ordered a hit from either the cartel or professional hit men or people in the community are already cartel....or....

[Nurse Nic]

Just dropping by to say thanks for those posting reading recommendations on this thread and others. I read The Sound of Gravel (Ruth Wariner) and The Polygamist's Daughter (Anna LeBaron) in one weekend and am away to look for similar reads. Ps the recent photos of Anna LeBaron gave me goosebumps- at first glance I thought she was Christine Brown, until I looked into their family trees. Those bloodlines run deep! 

[Howl]

I'd also recommend A Year of Polygamy podcast:  yearofpolygamy.com/

[frumperlicious]

Wow, I loved in southern Arizona and used to drive to Aqua Prieta on weekends for the delightful carnival in the center of town. Sometimes I’d drive the roads of Sonora just for the desert views, for hours. 
 

It wasn’t strictly speaking safe, but not like this. Again, wow. 
 

How horrific, whatever the motives. Water, drugs, internecine warfare- kids?? Awful.

 

  

[ViolaSebastian]

One of the things I've been throwing around in my mind since this happened is the possibility that this was blood atonement. Blood atonement is an old, disputed doctrine amongst more fundamentalist sects of the LDS, and the basic idea is that Jesus' crucifixion wasn't enough to atone for certain, more grievous sins. It's one of the reasons that Utah allows for death by shooting squad for capital cases. It hasn't been official, mainstream LDS doctrine because it, along with polygamy, was dropped when Utah became a state in the 1880s. If you've read Under the Banner of Heaven, blood atonement is a central idea in that book. Also, my SO listens to Clyde "Poor Man Alex Jones" Lewis for shits and giggles, and while he's usually full of hot air, as you can imagine, he's also ex-Mo and brought this idea up himself shortly after the murders.

In any case, other people have made this connection, too. In 1988, two men and an 8-year-old girl were murdered in Texas after leaving the LeBaron's Church of the Lamb of God. It could be connected to this crime, specifically, or a whole spate of slayings related to a schism in the church in the 1970s. The press has now picked up on that, and is reporting on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement

https://www.ksat.com/news/texas/2019/11/18/family-ambushed-in-mexico-linked-to-triple-homicide-in-houston-31-years-ago/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7703273/Nine-Mormons-massacred-Mexico-tied-1988-blood-atonement-killing-family.html

(From 1988): https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1989/10/14/slayings-linked-to-sect-revenge/60fa8703-6346-4c19-913c-c429fc10a6c8/

[clueliss]

The Witness Wore Red is good.  

[Katzchen24]

There's apparently been 3 arrests in relation to this. No information as to who or why in either of the articles I've linked below.

Spoiler

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lebaron-family-massacre-3-detained-mexico-today-2019-12-01/

https://nypost.com/2019/12/01/mexican-authorities-arrest-three-in-massacre-of-mormon-family/

Quoted from the NY Post "Mexican authorities have said the members of the LeBaron family —  a breakaway sect of Mormons with US-Mexico citizenship settled in northern Mexico for generations — got caught in a conflict between affiliates of the feuding Sinaloa and Juárez cartels.".

[freethemall]

On 11/5/2019 at 9:17 PM, AussieKrissy said:

Just looking for clarification on what I understand of what I have read. I have never heard of this family before.

The people that were killed were USA citizens. Do they live in the USA and were down there visiting? Or from what I am understanding were (dual) citizens having been born in mexico into this commune that was started in mexico after polygamy was banned. ??

If so, how do they keep their USA citizenship after so many generations have been born in Mexico? Do they still practice polygamy. I do like to read about the flds and the kingston clan but had never heard of this sect. Are they as bad?

This is a horrendous thing, with all these possible connections to something so infamous I am surprised no news media has picked up on it.

If you're interested in FLDS, definitely start one of the Lebaron books, I think Irene Spencer's are best. Ervil Lebaron makes Warren Jeffs almost look sane in comparison. 

If you ever watched Big Love, they have a whole plot line in Mexico inspired by the Lebarons.

As long as you are born to a US citizen,  you are a US citizen by birth, no matter where you were physically born. It's why Ted Cruz, who was born in Canada, was able to run for president.

[Howl]

On 11/21/2019 at 8:26 AM, ViolaSebastian said:

One of the things I've been throwing around in my mind since this happened is the possibility that this was blood atonement.

Yes, there is a concept of blood atonement, but to my mind this has a cartel violence signature.  Blood atonement is more personal and specific; this was a coordinated wholesale slaughter.  

For example, yesterday, Sunday, Dec. 1, in northern Mexico just 40 miles south of Eagle Pass, TX:  Death toll put at 20 for Mexico cartel attack near US border 

A cartel drove into a village and attacked the police.  Mexico is in a chronic, low intensity war. 

The cartels act with impunity, with a bottomless appetite for violence and total disregard for who dies.  They are better equipped than many armies.  The Mexican death toll for drug-related violence since 2006 is over 40,000.  

14 hours ago, freethemall said:

As long as you are born to a US citizen,  you are a US citizen by birth, no matter where you were physically born. It's why Ted Cruz, who was born in Canada, was able to run for president.

Ted's mom is a US citizen, his dad was from Cuba. Nobody made a huge kerfuffle over his birth certificate and citizenship, even though he was born in a foreign country. 

Hmmmmm, reminds me of someone who was actually born in a US state to a US mother, but excoriated over his birth certificate and citizenship. 

[keen23]

14 hours ago, freethemall said:

As long as you are born to a US citizen,  you are a US citizen by birth, no matter where you were physically born. It's why Ted Cruz, who was born in Canada, was able to run for president.

See also: John McCain- born in Panama.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

15 hours ago, freethemall said:

As long as you are born to a US citizen,  you are a US citizen by birth, no matter where you were physically born. It's why Ted Cruz, who was born in Canada, was able to run for president.

OT but what was all the shitstorm about Obama then? His mom was American or were they insinuating that she wasn't his mom or what? I always thought it was bullshit but it is even more inane than I thought.

[ViolaSebastian]

27 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

OT but what was all the shitstorm about Obama then? His mom was American or were they insinuating that she wasn't his mom or what? I always thought it was bullshit but it is even more inane than I thought.

It's down to racism, I'm afraid. 

Kamala Harris is an African-American woman who is running on the Democratic ticket for president in the U.S. right now. Her parents are Jamaican and Indian, respectively, and people are denying that she's an American. It's like "deja vu all over again," as Yogi Berra would say. 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kamala-harris-is-surging-and-birtherism-is-back

Edited December 2, 2019 by ViolaSebastian

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

OT but what was all the shitstorm about Obama then? His mom was American or were they insinuating that she wasn't his mom or what? I always thought it was bullshit but it is even more inane than I thought.

There is one reading of the Constitutional requirements to run for President that interprets the rules as one has to have been born on American soil. I do remember in 2008 there was some talk about whether John McCain technically qualified according to this (though others countered that as he was born on a naval air station in Panama, this counted as "American soil.")

Trump did bring up the issue about Ted Cruz's eligibility as well. And yes, according to that one interpretation, Cruz would not qualify. There are some Constitutional professors (granted, a minority) who stated they believed Cruz was not eligible.

IIRC, Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it was still a territory and not yet a state and there was some talk then about it being a problem during his campaign. Same with Mitt Romney's father since he was born in Mexico. 

(That being said, I found the whole Obama birther movement ridiculous. I never doubted he was born in Hawaii, but even if he weren't, the people freaking out about it weren't exactly Constitutional literalists in any other area so their motivations were completely transparent.)

Edited December 2, 2019 by nausicaa

[Maggie Mae]

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

OT but what was all the shitstorm about Obama then? His mom was American or were they insinuating that she wasn't his mom or what? I always thought it was bullshit but it is even more inane than I thought.

That is a question that is best answered by this wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories because there was more than one "rumor" or "conspiracy" floating around at the same time. 

In short, though, racism. Donald Trump's mother wasn't a natural born citizen and no one is disputing his claim. Then again, since Donald Trump was one of the loudest birthers out there, its just another example of his projection. 

[freethemall]

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

OT but what was all the shitstorm about Obama then? His mom was American or were they insinuating that she wasn't his mom or what? I always thought it was bullshit but it is even more inane than I thought.

The shitstorm was about Trump and his followers  being racist morons. Technically, Obama could have been born in Kenya but still able to run for president. And his opponent, McCain, was in fact born in Panama on a military base.

Here's an interesting article discussing Cruz, Obama, and the concept of "natural born citizen" (which does not per se require american soil): https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/mar/26/ted-cruz-born-canada-eligible-run-president-update/

[Howl]

Obama's dad was Kenyan AND a Muslim, causing American racists to completely lose their shit and engage in astounding histrionics. 

We were visiting family (college educated and very well off) during the Obama years  and found a birther book at their house. 

[adidas]

An update - a police chief has been arrested in relation to the massacre:

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/police-chief-arrested-over-mexico-family-massacre/news-story/d929a6f3c44f31d5b8ff4d3c69a9e5f8

[Howl]

Thanks for this update.  

[Howl]

On 11/5/2019 at 2:49 PM, scoutsadie said:

And unintentionally, the book I'm now reading is a fictional murder mystery that happens to take place in Arizona, just north of the Mexican border in Coronada County, and features cartel violence and illegal immigration as topics. (It's Sulphur Springs, by William Kent Krueger, one of my favorite American authors who usually writes stories set in northern Minnesota.)

Picked this up at the library as an audio book.  Thank you so much for the suggestion!  Last week we were driving on  of I 10 in southern Arizona listening to it.  I recognized some of the place names -- Arivaca and Nogales, so that was a great recommendation. Then we passed the turnoff to Nogales! Also, good twist at the end.  The book is set in the summer in southern AZ and the protagonist was yearning to be back in the deep cool woods of home by the end of the book. 

I had forgotten that Arizona is filled with mountain ranges, everywhere you look.  Also, an aside.  AZ does not observe daylight savings time and the little cabin we were staying at in Cottonwood, AZ didn't have WiFi, so we were oblivious to the time change.  Then driving home we crossed into NM, which does observe DST and then into TX, which also observes DST and is in a different time zone.  Crazy. I thought something was wrong with my laptop AND phone and I was confused momentarily about whether it got earlier or later going east. 

I was home for several hours and finally realized that the SkyScan clock resets itself to DST and was the correct time and that DST had happened!   Then I was able to re-reset the stove clock,  the microwave clock, my wristwatch and the clock in the car. 

[scoutsadie]

7 minutes ago, Howl said:

Picked this up at the library as an audio book.  Thank you so much for the suggestion!  Last week we were driving on  of I 10 in southern Arizona listening to it.  I recognized some of the place names -- Arivaca and Nogales, so that was a great recommendation. Then we passed the turnoff to Nogales! Also, good twist at the end.  The book is set in the summer in southern AZ and the protagonist was yearning to be back in the deep cool woods of home by the end of the book. 

So glad you enjoyed it, and that you listened while in that setting! I love reading novels about places before or while I am visiting. Did this in the Caribbean with James Michener, and last year read a novel about Hildegard of Bingen just before a trip down the Rhine.

I bet southern AZ is great this time of year (time changes notwithstanding, ha ha). Awhile back, we did northern New Mexico in late Jan. and the weather was great.

[Howl]

Yes, weather was perfect.  We stayed in Cottonwood and drove up to Sedona each day for the mountain bike festival we were attending.  The tips of the trees along the Verde River were just turning the faintest green when we arrived.  

Also, driving through West Texas, southern NM and AZ -- I LOVE the smell of creosote brush in the morning.  It gives a nice astringent tinge to the cool desert air. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

@Howl, I so glad you enjoyed your trip to Arizona. I miss it at times. Sedona and Cottonwood are beautiful and definitely the happy medium in Arizona. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Pecansforeveryone
Add a word

[Howl]

An update, but no new information on the affiliation of the man arrested or motive: Man arrested in connection with massacre of Mormon women and children in Mexico

 

[EmCatlyn]

On 11/5/2019 at 2:49 PM, scoutsadie said:

How horrific. Fucking drug cartels.

I just recently finished reading the memoirs Favorite Wife: Escape from Polygamy (by Susan Ray LeBaron Schmidt) and The Sound of Gravel (by Ruth LeBaron Warnier), and thought that the title of this thread was referencing the murders instigated by Ervil LeBaron. So sad that these new murders just happened.

FYI, both women above spent many years living in Colonia LeBaron - the former was the ex-wife of polygamist Vernal LeBaron, Ervil's brother and one of the early leaders of the fundy Mormon sect called the Church of the Firstborn, and the latter was the daughter of polygamist Joel LeBaron, another of Ervil's brothers and the prophet of the Church of the Firstborn, who was a victim of the early killings. I suspect the victims of this recent violence were related in some way to these women.

The first book tells the story of life in the colony (and other colonies like it) leading up to and just after Ervil's crime wave, and the second book mostly takes place after the early killings, since Ruthie was only three when Ervil had Joel killed.

Popping in more than a year later because I just finished three books about the Le Baron families in the period when Ervil devolved into a madman that planned the murder of his siblings and his own daughter (among others).  The books are fascinating because they tell of many of the same people but from different perspectives.

I wondered if others had read the books and wanted to discuss some of the insights about cults and polygamy that the books give.  One of the books is the one mentioned above, Favorite Wife: Escape from Polygamy by Susan Ray LeBaron Smith.  The other two are Shattered Dreams Restored by Irene Le Baron Spencer, and Daughters of Zion by Kim Taylor.

Susan Ray and Irene Smith were sister-wives, married to Verlan LeBaron. Kim Taylor was courted by, and almost married, Verlan, but fortunately realized that plural marriage in general and marriage to Verlan in particular was not for her in time.  All of them had close ties to some of the same people.  Susan Ray was a cousin of Mark Chynoweth, who was a dear friend (and possible first love) of Kim Taylor.  Mark Chynoweth’s family (parents and siblings) were won over by the madman Ervil and as a result participated in some of the horror.

I am going to read some more about these people, if I can get the books in the library, because the way the women are conditioned to accept polygamy is surely a prime example of patriarchal fundamentalist abuse.

[Howl]

37 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I am going to read some more about these people, if I can get the books in the library, because the way the women are conditioned to accept polygamy is surely a prime example of patriarchal fundamentalist abuse.

This is a good article about what is known collectively as Short Creek (the towns of Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, AZ), and the former stronghold of FLDS.  

I was incredibly sad to read that homes were being bought up and turned into Air B & Bs.  It's a warning sign that there will be a shrinking affordable housing inventory for people who actually live there or want to live there. 

From Polygamous Refuge To Tourist Town: Residents Adapt To The Transformation Of Short Creek

The article notes that only about 15% of the population of Short Creek are FLDS these days.