Gunman kills two in German Synagogue shooting

[Ozlsn]

Two people killed in a Synagogue shooting in eastern Germany.

A heavily armed assailant ranting tried to force his way into a synagogue in Germany on Yom Kippur, Judaism's holiest day, then shot two people dead outside the building.

The attacker shot at the door of the synagogue in the city of Halle but did not get in as 70 to 80 people inside were observing the holy day, a local Jewish leader said.

Reports said the gunman shot a woman dead in the street before killing a man in a nearby kebab shop.

Germany's top security official, Interior Minister Horst Seehofer, said authorities must assume it was an anti-Semitic attack, and said prosecutors believed there could be a right-wing extremist motive to it. He said several people were injured.

The attack was the third to target a synagogue in a year, following attacks in the United States on synagogues in Pittsburgh and Poway, California.

Police initially said in a tweet that "the suspected perpetrators" had fled in a car after the attacks, and quickly reported that one person had been arrested. Officers spread out in force across Halle, a city of 240,000, urging residents to stay at home.

Several hours later, police said there was no longer an "acute" danger to the city and residents could go back into the streets.

[thoughtful]

https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/stephan-balliet/

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Stephan Balliet is the suspect in an anti-Semitic attack on a synagogue and a shooting at a Turkish kebab shop in Halle, Germany, that left two people dead and two others injured on October 9, 2019, Bild reports. The German newspaper has identified Balliet as a neo-Nazi.

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He also posted a manifesto that was spread by white supremacists on the messaging app Telegram. In the PDF, Balliet said his mission was to, “kill as many anti-whites as possible, Jews preferred,”

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The live stream video posted by Balliet was taken down by Twitch, but was spread by white supremacists, neo-Nazis and others on the far right through other channels, including the encrypted messaging app Telegram, NBC News reports. Many in those communities have been praising Balliet in a similar was as the Christchurch shooter, and other gunmen inspired by him, calling him a hero and “saint.”

Quote

Balliet tells viewers that he thinks the Holocaust never happened. He also says feminism and mass immigration are causing the world’s problems and says Jewish people are “at the root” of those problems.

 

[Dandruff]

For any German FJers who are reading this...what is Germany likely to do to this monster, in response?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

48 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

For any German FJers who are reading this...what is Germany likely to do to this monster, in response?

Not German here, but probably they'll lock him up for life, there's no sympathy for terrorists in the wider German population.

According to the Guardian, he managed to kill only two people (and that's still two people too many) even if police took more than ten minutes to intervene because since gun control laws in Germany are pretty strict he had a homemade automatic gun that repeatedly jammed and didn't work properly. If you think that the Dayton shooter killed 9 people and injured seventeen in less than one minute, you can understand how gun control laws save lives.

[FluffySnowball]

1 hour ago, Dandruff said:

For any German FJers who are reading this...what is Germany likely to do to this monster, in response?

Well, he’s already arrested, there will be a trial and he’ll be sentenced to a minimum of 15 years in jail, with the possibility he has to stay much longer. That’s the only way I can imagine this goes. 

37 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Not German here, but probably they'll lock him up for life, there's no sympathy for terrorists in the wider German population.

According to the Guardian, he managed to kill only two people (and that's still two people too many) even if police took more than ten minutes to intervene because since gun control laws in Germany are pretty strict he had a homemade automatic gun that repeatedly jammed and didn't work properly. If you think that the Dayton shooter killed 9 people and injured seventeen in less than one minute, you can understand how gun control laws save lives.

YES!!!!! That’s such a good point, @laPapessaGiovanna! 

 

ETA: An article our Germans and German-speakers could be interested in: 

https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2019-10/anschlag-halle-synagoge-antisemitsmus-rechtspopulismus

I don’t agree with everything in the article, especially not with the notion that antisemitism had been wiped out in Western Germany after WW II, but many points made are important! 

Edited October 11, 2019 by FluffySnowball

[Luighseach]

What @laPapessaGiovanna said. There is an eleven-page manifesto attributed to the shooter which states one of his intentions was to prove that homemade weapons work. I'm not a legal expert, but Spiegel Online says illegal weapon manufacture alone can carry a ten-year jail sentence. 

Like @FluffySnowball said, a life sentence means he will be locked up for at least fifteen years, after that there may be a possibility of parole, depending on the exact sentence.

I am beyond horrified this has happened. But yes, I am also convinced that gun control works and that, had the shooter (I'm not using his name on purpose), had access to regular weapons, we would be looking at an even more horrible outcome.

[FluffySnowball]

16 minutes ago, Luighseach said:

I am beyond horrified this has happened. But yes, I am also convinced that gun control works and that, had the shooter (I'm not using his name on purpose), had access to regular weapons, we would be looking at an even more horrible outcome.

When the attack on the ChCh mosque happened, I was appreciative of the fact the terrorist’s name wasn’t mentioned. So when I saw the German shooter’s full name plastered all over the news, It startled me at first and although it’s a minor detail in this tragedy, I wish we wouldn’t hear his name so frequently. 

[thoughtful]

@FluffySnowball and @Luighseach, can you explain why you don't want to use his name, or see it used by others?

It strikes me that it's a good thing to have people who google the name find news sources with facts, or places like this where he is being condemned for his actions. If they don't use his name, anyone searching would be more likely to find alt-right sites, celebrating his actions.

What am I missing?

[Luighseach]

It refers to Jacinda Ardern vowing to not give the Christchurch shooter the notoriety he sought through his actions by saying his name. Otherwise, the name of the perpetrator is remembered, but the victims remain, for the most part, anonymous: BBC article

I can see reasons for both mentioning and not mentioning the name. It's already out there anyway, as are the articles about what happened. So I'm not sure if handling it either way makes a lot of difference. In the end this is a personal choice. But I definitely want to give a name to the people he killed, Jana and Kevin. He also wounded two more whose names have not been publicized, as far as I'm aware.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Luighseach
added thought

[Kelsey]

10 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

 

According to the Guardian, he managed to kill only two people (and that's still two people too many) even if police took more than ten minutes to intervene because since gun control laws in Germany are pretty strict he had a homemade automatic gun that repeatedly jammed and didn't work properly. If you think that the Dayton shooter killed 9 people and injured seventeen in less than one minute, you can understand how gun control laws save lives.

I'm afraid the message gun nuts would take away from this is see! even with gun control people still die! SO leave my AK alone!!!!

[thoughtful]

2 hours ago, Luighseach said:

It refers to Jacinda Ardern vowing to not give the Christchurch shooter the notoriety he sought through his actions by saying his name. Otherwise, the name of the perpetrator is remembered, but the victims remain, for the most part, anonymous: BBC article

I can see reasons for both mentioning and not mentioning the name. It's already out there anyway, as are the articles about what happened. So I'm not sure if handling it either way makes a lot of difference. In the end this is a personal choice. But I definitely want to give a name to the people he killed, Jana and Kevin. He also wounded two more whose names have not been publicized, as far as I'm aware.

Thanks for the answer, and the perspective.

I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing anything that would put someone in further danger.

[prayawaythefundie]

In the German press the question of why this synagogue wasn‘t protected by the police on Yom Kippur has been raised. Other synagogues were. It seems to be a standard procedure. So there might be legal consequences for officials as well. We will see. 

I agree with @FluffySnowball that it‘s nonsense to say anti-semitism had been wiped out in any part if Germany after WW II. It‘s nonsense to say that for any part of the world really. But things have changed for the worse in recent years. For decades neo-nazis really had to hide. Their ideology was rejected by mainstream society, their propaganda outlawed. That still is true for a majority of German society but that majority has shrunken and neo-nazis have gained confidence. It‘s a scary trend to be observed all over Europe and in the US as well.

[klein_roeschen]

2 days ago, a german terrorist wanted to attack a synagoge in Halle an der Saale, a city in Germany. He found the synagoge doors locked, so instead he killed 2 people, a woman and men on the streets and injured others. All his weapons and the bomb he carried with him where build himself. Before the attack, he posted his manifesto on the internet and like christchurch, he livestreamed the attack.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/09/two-dead-german-shooting-outside-synagogue-halle-police-urge/

Edit: Thanks for moving my post, I looked for a thread, but didn't looked at the right place.

Edited October 11, 2019 by klein_roeschen
thans for moving my post

[klein_roeschen]

21 minutes ago, prayawaythefundie said:

I agree with @FluffySnowball that it‘s nonsense to say anti-semitism had been wiped out in any part if Germany after WW II. It‘s nonsense to say that for any part of the world really. But things have changed for the worse in recent years. For decades neo-nazis really had to hide. Their ideology was rejected by mainstream society, their propaganda outlawed. That still is true for a majority of German society but that majority has shrunken and neo-nazis have gained confidence. It‘s a scary trend to be observed all over Europe and in the US as well.

They succeded with becoming more mainstream. Like fundies, they became less other looking and took on a more mainstream appearance and they succeded. They toned down their political message to appease more to the mainstream. And than came the AFD. What started out as a protest party against the EURO, soon became the new political home for neo- nazis and again, the succeded. This vile cesspool of a party now sits in the Bundestag and many state parlaments. The refugee crisis 2015 again played into their hands, too. In 2 weeks, my federal state will vote for a new state parlament and I'm deeply affraid about how many votes they get. For my electoral district they got 24,6 percent of the votes in the last vote for the Bundestag and I'm affraid they will get the same. It's terrifying and disgusting.

[FluffySnowball]

6 hours ago, thoughtful said:

@FluffySnowball and @Luighseach, can you explain why you don't want to use his name, or see it used by others?

It strikes me that it's a good thing to have people who google the name find news sources with facts, or places like this where he is being condemned for his actions. If they don't use his name, anyone searching would be more likely to find alt-right sites, celebrating his actions.

What am I missing?

Before the NZ mosque shooting, I had never thought about the difference between knowing a murderer’s/terrorist’s name and not knowing it. When the bloodbath in ChCh happened, the focus on the victims and their stories was... consoling for lack of a better word. They were the people whose names ought to be known, whose faces were in the papers, and rightfully so. The focus on them made them so much more than a number of casualties in a shooting spree. Maybe it gave me the feeling they not be forgotten. 

The shooter’s motives were discussed of course, but he as a hateful and cruel person didn’t play any role. He was whisked away to jail where he can rot for all eternity. Who he is, his issues that caused him to go on a murder spree, that’s all insignificant and would - and I say this in hindsight - probably shift the focus away from the victims. What mattered were the wounded (emotionally and physically) and the dead. 

So, knowing the shooter’s name doesn’t add anything to the discussion. Unfortunately, in the German media, the focus is on the shooter. He just confessed he acted because of his right wing beliefs. He prepared his crime since months. He used to be in the army. It was written about where he’s in jail now, when he was questioned by the police, what his neighbors thought of him. Always about  him... him... him... His name is everywhere. But I didn’t come across the victims’ names more than once or twice, and never in a headline. For likeminded people, he’s a hero and he’s becoming famous and I’m afraid his “fame” could encourage others to follow in his footsteps. However, when only his motives are discussed without giving him personally any attention, I’d feel more comfortable with the way this a handled. 

2 hours ago, prayawaythefundie said:

In the German press the question of why this synagogue wasn‘t protected by the police on Yom Kippur has been raised. Other synagogues were. It seems to be a standard procedure. So there might be legal consequences for officials as well. We will see. 

I know and while I must agree with people asking for a better protection of synagogues, the mere request makes me sad. People of any faith should be at ease to worship freely and without having to fear for their wellbeing.

According to some news sources, the shooter had first planned to go to a mosque but the synagogue was easier for him to reach. Mosques, at least the German mosques I know, are always open during the day, with people constantly coming and going. Had he gone to a mosque, entering would most likely have succeeded and he might have killed far more people. Thank God he couldn’t get into the synagogue!!

Edited October 11, 2019 by FluffySnowball

[FluffySnowball]

4 hours ago, Kelsey said:

I'm afraid the message gun nuts would take away from this is see! even with gun control people still die! SO leave my AK alone!!!!

True, but their arguments are becoming crazier by the second. And what the attack actually showed was that with proper gun laws, we hardly ever have mass shootings in Germany.

Instead, the murderer spent months working on his guns and couldn’t produce something that would have allowed him to kill dozens or even hundreds within a short time frame. With a store-bought and properly working (semi-)automatic rifle, things could have gotten even worse.

So to come back to your point: yes, weapon fanatics might come up with their own odd perspectives, but whoever looks at the situation with honesty sees that the absence of the second amendment has likely saved many lives in this case.