Nathan 4: Competing With Lawson for Title of Most Insufferable

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

One of these daughters have to question that the boys get to have so much freedom and the daughters can only have any sort of freedom through a young marriage. There is no way in hell Gil and Kelly would have supported a daughter learning to dance so she could try out for the Dixie Stampede. Daughters are pushed towards a relationship as soon as they are over the age of 18 which helps put a damper on any sort of independent ideas. 

Exactly. If Erin had wanted to be a famous country music star instead of Lawson, there's no way in hell they would have supported her cavorting around with different men on set, single at 28. Hell would freeze over first. 

[Italiangirl]

At least the Duggar seems to have the same ideas for both sex of kids on how to act before during and after courting and engagement, they don't seem to have this wild double standard. Yes, all the kids that are married or have courted have acted somehow differently, but still for the most part they all have followed the same path and expectation. Except now we have 17 years old, Justin officially announcing he is courting! 

[llucie]

5 hours ago, Italiangirl said:

At least the Duggar seems to have the same ideas for both sex of kids on how to act before during and after courting and engagement, they don't seem to have this wild double standard. Yes, all the kids that are married or have courted have acted somehow differently, but still for the most part they all have followed the same path and expectation. Except now we have 17 years old, Justin officially announcing he is courting! 

Well to be fair child marriage is not something the Bateses have done so far. In fact they made Josie wait to date until she was older. Probably one of the only nice things Gil has done.

[CaptainFunderpants]

11 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

Exactly. If Erin had wanted to be a famous country music star instead of Lawson, there's no way in hell they would have supported her cavorting around with different men on set, single at 28. Hell would freeze over first. 

"What if I had to sit next to someone with green hair?" 

When you start thinking these people seem normal... Erin had a full ride scholarship to Tennessee and she couldn't accept it because the risk that comes from being near someone wearing manic panic.

No, in light of revelations that came out after that, I'm assuming it's not green hair she was worried about, it was having to sit near someone with the completely unconscionable Type 4 hair 

Spoiler

For those not fluent in hair texture speak:

Type 1 = Straight
Type 2 = Wavy
Type 3 = Curly
Type 4 = Kinky

 

 

[Coconut Flan]

2 minutes ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

Erin had a full ride scholarship to Tennessee and she couldn't accept it because the risk that comes from being near someone wearing manic panic.

They said scholarship not full ride.  Still she could have gone to UT not Crown and it would probably have helped her playing tremendously.  

[becky_m2001]

On 9/20/2020 at 7:42 PM, OrchidBlossom said:

That’s all very interesting, thanks for sharing! Welcome to FJ. I’d recommend bringing a lot of popcorn, goes great with the snark.

Just in case you're interested, this is one of the photos that made me take a step back and question the Bates and their hypocrisy. This was a mock wedding photo shoot that Lawson participated in back in 2018. When I saw this I kind of hit pause because for years I'd heard them gush for years about how sacred marriage was and how you were supposed to be pure in your heart and your body for your future spouse. That doesn't jive with taking "pretend" wedding photos with someone you don't know! That was when I started asking questions.

[OrchidBlossom]

14 hours ago, becky_m2001 said:

Just in case you're interested, this is one of the photos that made me take a step back and question the Bates and their hypocrisy. This was a mock wedding photo shoot that Lawson participated in back in 2018. When I saw this I kind of hit pause because for years I'd heard them gush for years about how sacred marriage was and how you were supposed to be pure in your heart and your body for your future spouse. That doesn't jive with taking "pretend" wedding photos with someone you don't know! That was when I started asking questions.

Good to know. Lawson is my anti-pet fundie.

[Manda]

20 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

They said scholarship not full ride.  Still she could have gone to UT not Crown and it would probably have helped her playing tremendously.  

UT had a entire process of auditioning before a committee before granting any music scholarships.  One person couldn't have awarded her a scholarship outright anyway.

[Jana814]

1 hour ago, Manda said:

UT had a entire process of auditioning before a committee before granting any music scholarships.  One person couldn't have awarded her a scholarship outright anyway.

Thanks for that info about music scholarships I’m sure it’s true for other schools as well.  

[Johannah]

19 hours ago, becky_m2001 said:

Just in case you're interested, this is one of the photos that made me take a step back and question the Bates and their hypocrisy. This was a mock wedding photo shoot that Lawson participated in back in 2018. When I saw this I kind of hit pause because for years I'd heard them gush for years about how sacred marriage was and how you were supposed to be pure in your heart and your body for your future spouse. That doesn't jive with taking "pretend" wedding photos with someone you don't know! That was when I started asking questions.

I’m as unfundie as they come. Got married in my early 30s and my husband and I both had serious long-term relationships before meeting each other. I am unfazed by that. And yet, if he had a photo of himself with another woman in a wedding dress, something that looked like a real wedding photo, even if it was just for a music video, it would make me a little squeamish. It’s unreal that the broken heart pieces people are cool with this play wedding stuff, real embraces and all. 

[becky_m2001]

20 minutes ago, Johannah said:

I’m as unfundie as they come. Got married in my early 30s and my husband and I both had serious long-term relationships before meeting each other. I am unfazed by that. And yet, if he had a photo of himself with another woman in a wedding dress, something that looked like a real wedding photo, even if it was just for a music video, it would make me a little squeamish. It’s unreal that the broken heart pieces people are cool with this play wedding stuff, real embraces and all. 

I'll admit that my first thought when I saw this photo (and the rest of the mock wedding shoot) was "what will his wife think of this someday?"

[rebeccawriter01]

On 9/21/2020 at 10:36 PM, Coconut Flan said:

They said scholarship not full ride.  Still she could have gone to UT not Crown and it would probably have helped her playing tremendously.  

I have a feeling that she would have qualified for a good deal of need based financial aid. At the time she started college, there was no show, Gil operated a fledgling company and Kelly Jo was a stay at home mom bringing in no income. She had 18 (17 at first) siblings. 

Her parents graduated from Carson Newman, as did my second cousin. It's a Christian college, but nowhere near as shady as Crown. She could have even gone there and gotten a scholarship. I had horrible grades in high school and they offered me money.

I know they didn't want to send her away to school, but a few hours away there is Shorter University in Rome, Georgia that is seriously conservative - they have faculty and staff sign code of conduct agreements that are anti-drinking, anti-LGBTQ, etc. However, they are accredited and have a phenomenal music education program, as well as music ministry. I have a friend who is an accomplished pianist and had to try out a few times to even get into the program. She is not mega-religious but said that she learned so much about music from the program that she was glad she went. She doesn't support them now that they have turned much more conservative. That school would have been right in line with Erin's thinking.

- - 

They never mention it on the show now, but back when they did the Nightline stories they would say that Erin and Nathan were both in college at Crown. There was footage shown of him on the campus and in a classroom. I know Nathan didn't graduate, but was he doing the same Christian Life program that Trace did? Or was he actually attempting to study ministry? This was before the trade programs were introduced. 

I know Alyssa went for a semester or two - originally to accompany Erin. Nathan was shown there. Zach and Michaela took EMT classes somewhere at Michaela went to Rhone State online for her healthcare courses and now just graduated as an LPN. Zach then attended the law enforcement academy. Tori and Erin graduated with their bachelor of biblical studies degrees and Josie, Katie, and Trace earned certificates. Carlin started at Crown and graduated from Liberty. So if I count correctly, that would mean only Lawson has not attended college at all yet? 
  

[llucie]

6 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

I have a feeling that she would have qualified for a good deal of need based financial aid. At the time she started college, there was no show, Gil operated a fledgling company and Kelly Jo was a stay at home mom bringing in no income. She had 18 (17 at first) siblings. 

Her parents graduated from Carson Newman, as did my second cousin. It's a Christian college, but nowhere near as shady as Crown. She could have even gone there and gotten a scholarship. I had horrible grades in high school and they offered me money.

I know they didn't want to send her away to school, but a few hours away there is Shorter University in Rome, Georgia that is seriously conservative - they have faculty and staff sign code of conduct agreements that are anti-drinking, anti-LGBTQ, etc. However, they are accredited and have a phenomenal music education program, as well as music ministry. I have a friend who is an accomplished pianist and had to try out a few times to even get into the program. She is not mega-religious but said that she learned so much about music from the program that she was glad she went. She doesn't support them now that they have turned much more conservative. That school would have been right in line with Erin's thinking.

- - 

They never mention it on the show now, but back when they did the Nightline stories they would say that Erin and Nathan were both in college at Crown. There was footage shown of him on the campus and in a classroom. I know Nathan didn't graduate, but was he doing the same Christian Life program that Trace did? Or was he actually attempting to study ministry? This was before the trade programs were introduced. 

I know Alyssa went for a semester or two - originally to accompany Erin. Nathan was shown there. Zach and Michaela took EMT classes somewhere at Michaela went to Rhone State online for her healthcare courses and now just graduated as an LPN. Zach then attended the law enforcement academy. Tori and Erin graduated with their bachelor of biblical studies degrees and Josie, Katie, and Trace earned certificates. Carlin started at Crown and graduated from Liberty. So if I count correctly, that would mean only Lawson has not attended college at all yet? 
  

Tori actually got a degree in Elementary Education, its diferent from the one Erin got (and that Carlin was atempting before changing to Liberty online) that was in music. Not that Crown offers that many degrees. specially back them, before they had the trades, it was basically bible, music or education. I didnt know that Nathan had atended Crown briefly, but then yes you are correct that Lawson is the only one that never atended then. Well Jackson is 18 now and should be starting this year, since all they mentioned about him is that he wants to be a marine i am asuming no Crown for him either.

[rebeccawriter01]

6 hours ago, llucie said:

Tori actually got a degree in Elementary Education, its diferent from the one Erin got (and that Carlin was atempting before changing to Liberty online) that was in music. Not that Crown offers that many degrees. specially back them, before they had the trades, it was basically bible, music or education. I didnt know that Nathan had atended Crown briefly, but then yes you are correct that Lawson is the only one that never atended then. Well Jackson is 18 now and should be starting this year, since all they mentioned about him is that he wants to be a marine i am asuming no Crown for him either.

No, Tori's degree is a bachelor of biblical studies in elementary education. It is not an actual accredited or recognized bachelor degree that would lead to a teaching license. Even private schools and programs at churches are requiring licensure for their teachers now because to receive funding from state and federal sources there are requirements for so many licensed teachers for every X number of students. Plus it affects the accreditation of the school itself, meaning if the private school or even church preschool program doesn't have accreditation, it is going to have a hard time getting students to pay and attend. 

Crown gives as its accreditation a line about TRACS. As someone who worked in higher education for many years, I can tell you that TRACS is a worthless system that pretty much offers accreditation to any organization that puts the words school, college, or university in the title of their paperwork. It is nothing like the other accrediting agencies that spend months investigating the school, going through documents, visiting, observing, and even interviewing faculty, staff, students, and alumni. I've served on committees on both sides of that and it is one of the most stressful experiences. 

Bachelor of Biblical Studies is something that isn't even recognized by most academics. It's considered to a lesser form of a Bachelor of Theological Studies, but it's not even defined well enough to do that. Crown received permission from Tennessee to offer and award degrees, but they refuse in many cases to follow the standards that the state and federal government demand of a bachelor of science, arts, business administration, etc. Between one third and one half of the classes are based strictly on Bible study and evangelizing to the public. While accredited early childhood programs include many hours of classroom observation and experience, Crown's website talks about a total of two weeks. Crown's education program has students studying about mission trips, telling your personal testimony,  Bible and Baptist History, teaching the Bible, Christian literature, and a class on marriage and the family.

When I earned my BS in elementary education (never used because I went a different route), you had to take three semesters of teaching math, three of teaching reading, preschool curriculum, special education, diversity, various science classes, extensive history and geography classes. I worked full time, took six classes a semester, and spent 20-25 hours in the classroom a week before I even got to my senior year where I had to do my student teaching. Crown's school of education pisses me off.  

 

 

As for Nathan, I'm guessing he did a few classes in the biblical life certificate. I know that early on Kelly Jo talked about him wanting to be a preacher, so it would have made sense to enroll in the ministry program. However, it is unclear if he did or planned to do that. I would think Gil wouldn't encourage it, as he makes money now preaching and didn't go to school for it. I might be projecting, but I bet he would think it was unnecessary. We saw how he invited Bobby, who did get a ministry degree, to work for the family's church. Then we see Bobby and Tori sweeping and cleaning up. 

As for Jackson, he has taken a class or two. There was video of him on Paine Construction Instagram where he arrived at the job site in a suit and tie. He said he was coming from college (they refer to it as college when most would just say I was at school) and that he was doing dual enrollment.  

 

 

[Johannah]

You would think especially in an education field that they would want their kids to be able to use the degree at a Christian school, or maybe even a non-Christian one (importance of evangelizing and whatnot). What the hell is the point of an unaccredited degree in education?? But I guess they figure only women will do it. And they’ll never hold a job anyway. 

And I assume they need at least some classroom/student teaching hours even though they’re opposed to schools and only homeschool? Didn’t Tori say she was student teaching at one point? Do they count church Sunday school or youth group or something as part of that?

[rebeccawriter01]

1 minute ago, Johannah said:

You would think especially in an education field that they would want their kids to be able to use the degree at a Christian school, or maybe even a non-Christian one (importance of evangelizing and whatnot). What the hell is the point of an unaccredited degree in education?? But I guess they figure only women will do it. And they’ll never hold a job anyway. 

And I assume they need at least some classroom/student teaching hours even though they’re opposed to schools and only homeschool? Didn’t Tori say she was student teaching at one point? Do they count church Sunday school or youth group or something as part of that?

At one point they probably could get their students jobs teaching in pre-k at a church or something like that. However, as funding requirements have gotten stricter, employers are coming down harder on them. Schools like Crown are cash and carry schools. In other words, there is no Pell Grant, student loans, or any other kind of state or federal financial aid programs. Students either have to pay up front (or on a payment plan) or their home church sends them money. By avoiding accreditation, federal money, etc., they essentially can teach whatever they want to teach and call it what they want to call it to a certain extent. For example, they can't call it the same name as a legitimate degree and pretend it is the same. I can't start a school and offer one biology class, calling it a medical school. I could add in three Bible classes and call it a Biblical Medical Certificate. 

According to Crown's website, the second semester of senior year, the students do a 12 credit hour internship. However, from what has been said previously, this equals out to like 2 weeks observing at certain churches and whatnot. 

One would assume this doesn't matter to most of the girls in the program (few if any men would study it if they are allowed) because they plan to get married and have kids right away. 

I am guessing that Nathan probably dropped out of Crown because it costs quite a bit of money. He was attending before they had a show. It made more sense to him to attend his flight training in Mississippi. While I do make fun of the pride that Nathan, John David, Lawson, etc. show about their pilot status, I'm not so cold hearted as to say it doesn't require some study and practice. Good for them. Now just quit playing rescue worker and let those who know what they are doing take on that work. 

[Coconut Flan]

Wasn't Tori the one who eventually graduated from Liberty online?  Her degree turned into a general studies type thing? 

[EmiSue]

5 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Wasn't Tori the one who eventually graduated from Liberty online?  Her degree turned into a general studies type thing? 

No, that was Carlin.

[Lgirlrocks]

Maybe crown assumes the ones getting the teaching degree will home school. It would help them to be able to home school better than with the degree. 
I was home schooled until the 8th grade. When I told my mom I wanted to be a teacher she told me to joke school. I said I didn’t want to do that. I hated being home schooled and if I had kids I wouldn’t home school then unless I had to. Never became a teacher. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Lgirlrocks

[Tangy Bee]

I personally know of 3 Crown graduates in this area who got jobs affiliated with local "fundie" churches. In fact one guy got a job in the DC area. Sounds very similar to what Josh Duggar was doing before scandal. He was actually principal of the private, church school he grew up at. Thinking his dad being the pastor had something to do with that.

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

On 9/15/2020 at 10:54 AM, Tangy Bee said:

I'm getting anxiety just thinking about how big her wedding party will be one day. Is her family a "save the 1st kiss" type of fundies as well?

Nah, I'm pretty sure some of the siblings have children out of wedlock. 

On 9/15/2020 at 11:03 AM, OHFL2009 said:

I was wondering that myself. I live in an area with a lot of Amish and Mennonite, and when I scanned through her (public) Facebook friends list the other day, I recognized a lot of common last names. I know the area where she lives has a very large Amish and Mennonite population...

^ i believe the photographer tagged for a lot of the family-photos on her (or sisters') instagram is mennonite? 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

On 9/23/2020 at 6:52 AM, llucie said:

Tori actually got a degree in Elementary Education, its diferent from the one Erin got (and that Carlin was atempting before changing to Liberty online) that was in music. Not that Crown offers that many degrees. specially back them, before they had the trades, it was basically bible, music or education. I didnt know that Nathan had atended Crown briefly, but then yes you are correct that Lawson is the only one that never atended then. Well Jackson is 18 now and should be starting this year, since all they mentioned about him is that he wants to be a marine i am asuming no Crown for him either.

Jackson isn't going to be a Marine, although I will be excited for him if he actually become one. Jackson is going to ALERT and ALERT could prepare him for a career in the military, even the Marines. That was more an ad for ALERT than an actual goal. The military has all of kinds of people and Gil and Kelly want their kids far away from any LGBTQ+ or women in command, etc. 

[llucie]

2 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Jackson isn't going to be a Marine, although I will be excited for him if he actually become one. Jackson is going to ALERT and ALERT could prepare him for a career in the military, even the Marines. That was more an ad for ALERT than an actual goal. The military has all of kinds of people and Gil and Kelly want their kids far away from any LGBTQ+ or women in command, etc. 

It does seem to be his actual goal, i remember him saying he wanted to be in the military when asked years ago as a boy. If he will acomplish it or not i dont know. He must already have returned from Alert or be about to return i think, we will see if he will do something about it or keep working for Chad.

Edited September 25, 2020 by llucie
spelling

[Lgirlrocks]

4 hours ago, llucie said:

It does seem to be his actual goal, i remember him saying he wanted to be in the military when asked years ago as a boy. If he will acomplish it or not i dont know. He must already have returned from Alert or be about to return i think, we will see if he will do something about it or keep working for Chad.

In the last episode they said alert was postponed due to the pandemic. Not sure when they started back up, or if they have. I feel if Jackson really wants to do this he will. He’s a guy and he is old enough to enlist without his parents. Not sure if he will get the courage to do it though. Too bad he doesn’t have any support. 

[Bobology]

What @rebeccawriter01 said in her above posts explains what we saw in that video of Tori "teaching" her nieces and nephews. Most of us (I guess) assumed she had an actual elementary ed degree. 

Although the 'degrees' and 'certificates' from Crown seem laughable (ok, ARE laughable,) I have to admit that is more than the Duggar kids* can get. While there, the Bates kids were at least exposed to other types of fundies, some who would have a bit differing beliefs in some areas of faith or culture. It seems the Duggar kids were not allowed even that much mixture with people.

*I do remember Joe Duggar's semester (I thought semester but some here have said two semesters) of christian life or whatever studies at Crown, but like others I always thought that was a ruse to get him close to the Bates to see if there was any mutual interest between either him and Tori, or possibly Carlin. As if growing up in the Duggar home wasn't already enough preparation to live a christian life... a lying, cheating, scamming christian life ? ... as opposed to those folks who actually DO live a christian life.