Andrea Mills 2: Watching Tom Appear to Lose His Mind

[Alice in Fundieland]

41 minutes ago, Hane said:

Please tell me that has nothing to do with this.

That was my first thought, too. I’m glad it’s not that. 

[moreorlessnu]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

  Hannah needs a new burgundy dress.  I expect he'll be opening 6 burgundy dresses next week.

 

 

Now there will be no excuse to lay Hannah down for a nap in stained clothing on burgundy day...

[ViolaSebastian]

Honestly, in his position, the same-color-every-day thing is one of the first things that would go by the wayside. I realize they enjoy it, but it's extra work to keep up with, and it's unnecessary. And right now, unnecessary things would be mostly cut out until the family wasn't drowning.

[fundiefollower]

2 hours ago, Howl said:

I haven't followed this after Andrea passed, but likely Grandma Kitty is holding things together, or at least I hope she is, that anyone is.  Does Grandma Kitty live close by?  Doe anyone from Andrea's family live close by? 

 

I don't have the geographical specifics, but yes Grandma Kitty and 2 or three of Andrea's sisters live nearby.  Her dad, papa Gary is also nearby.  Her brother is also in WY I believe. 

I don't live in WY but I am in North Dakota, another very rural state.  Our terms of "nearby" might not be the same as in other parts of the country.  I think grandma Kitty's house and Papa Gary's house are each about 20 minutes away.  Not sure on her sisters but from the videos they are close or fairly close - probably within a 1/2 hour drive.  So everyone is probably within a 30 mile radius of the Mills house in Moorcroft.  When you live in a small town in a rural state, you are used to driving 30-75 miles (which is 25-60 minutes drive time in good weather) to really get anywhere.

[under siege]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Sorry, but unfortunately the type of support Tom is asking for and accepting on youtube is not going to make them "fine."  

Absolutely, the money raised will help the family, if he spends it wisely.  People sending the children clothes helps him in the short term.  The children are now expecting presents piled up every week.  Once the gifts and attention dwindle away and the candy is eaten their mother still won't be there.   And their father seems more interested in piling up the loot than in taking care of them in a meaningful way.

All the candy and gifts in the world won't help the children process their grief.  They need parenting too.  Tom is not focused on that as I can see.

That's not what I meant by my statement.
What I meant was that the trauma of those moments with their mother should be enough for Tom to seek help and guidance in dealing with all this. Their lives have been turned upside down and the one person who did everything for and with them is now gone. That too should be enough for any sensible caring parent to see that children will not be 'fine' just because they are 'resilient'.

No amount for crap from the 'youtube people' will be enough to fill the void that Tom so desperately wants to avoid dealing with.

I'm said this before - not all the kids are going to get through this okay.  Tom not dealing properly with their grief is definitely not okay.

[Palimpsest]

17 minutes ago, under siege said:

That's not what I meant by my statement.
What I meant was that the trauma of those moments with their mother should be enough for Tom to seek help and guidance in dealing with all this. Their lives have been turned upside down and the one person who did everything for and with them is now gone. That too should be enough for any sensible caring parent to see that children will not be 'fine' just because they are 'resilient'.

Thanks for the clarification.  I agree completely.

[fundiefollower]

Judah and Eden both have YouTube channels as well.  I knew that Judah did, he has had it for quite awhile.  I watched a couple of videos on both.  Eden had one where she was making an ointment from her herb kit that she got for Christmas.  It was really cute.  She was chatty and acting like a normal kid talking about something she liked (similar to how I see my daughter act when making make-up tutorial videos since that is what she likes).  It was cute to see her on her own and not prompted for responses like in a lot of the family videos.  Judah has a Q&A posted, he replies to some comments as well.  Apparently he has been hearing not nice things directed toward him (apparently about school) when he is walking to the store lately.  My guess is questioning why he isn't in school, just a guess.  He also seems like a normal kid in his video.  He is really into the armor that he is making and it's fun to listen to him talk about it.  If he continues with interest in fabricating and welding, he could have a good career in that. 

[AverageJane]

I'm sure Andrea's hormones were all out of whack from stopping the breastfeeding and having the miscarriage but the cancer had definitely spread before any of this happened since both her gallbladder and liver were cancerous when she had the gallbladder removal. Tom also said she had passed a lot of gallstones in the past. It's rather unusual to actually pass gallstones but since she had gallbladder problems in the past I'm surprised the ER didn't consider that during her previous visits.

I'm still amazed that even after being told she had metastasized cancer she thought she could be cured with herbs. 

[ViolaSebastian]

3 minutes ago, AverageJane said:

I'm still amazed that even after being told she had metastasized cancer she thought she could be cured with herbs. 

Denial is a hell of a thing. I imagine being told you're about to die kicks that into the stratosphere. 

[Koala]

1 hour ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Denial is a hell of a thing. I imagine being told you're about to die kicks that into the stratosphere. 

Agree.  She had 9 babies she wanted to go home to.  Add that to the fact that she was heavily medicated, and clearly didn't have a good grasp on what was going on because of that, and it's not surprising at all that she told herself she'd just go home and get better.

It breaks my heart to think of her hearing that.  Part of me hopes she never really realized just how bad it was.  No one should face that.

 

[Palimpsest]

5 hours ago, fundiefollower said:

I don't have the geographical specifics, but yes Grandma Kitty and 2 or three of Andrea's sisters live nearby.  Her dad, papa Gary is also nearby.  Her brother is also in WY I believe. 

I don't live in WY but I am in North Dakota, another very rural state.  Our terms of "nearby" might not be the same as in other parts of the country.  I think grandma Kitty's house and Papa Gary's house are each about 20 minutes away.  Not sure on her sisters but from the videos they are close or fairly close - probably within a 1/2 hour drive.  So everyone is probably within a 30 mile radius of the Mills house in Moorcroft.  When you live in a small town in a rural state, you are used to driving 30-75 miles (which is 25-60 minutes drive time in good weather) to really get anywhere.

Papa Gary I'd rather not think about for reasons already discussed up-thread. 

Andrea's sisters have been mentioned as being around and helping several times, and apparently now Grandma Kitty is helping out with the homeschooling 3 days a week.  They sound like nice and responsible people who love the children and are probably happy to help out as much as they can.

However, even lovely, caring, and responsible aunts and grandmas may not be able to help out forever.  Tom should be taking their other responsibilities and needs into account while making long-term plans for the teaching and care of his children.  

3 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Denial is a hell of a thing. I imagine being told you're about to die kicks that into the stratosphere. 

And isn't that the truth.  But it may also have been that Andrea was not able to focus and take in the information at first.  She was on massive amounts of pain controls and already dying.  

I made the mistake of watching the video that @under siege, recapped so well above about Andrea's death.  Listening to Tom's version of events, it seemed to me that the Millses were a nightmare couple for all the medical professionals to have to deal with.  It has less to do with her "white coat syndrome" than it has to do with their basic distrust of and overt hostility to conventional medicine and its practitioners.    Sad.

Grief and loss can make people angry, and they may search for people to blame.   Although he praises a couple of medical professionals, Tom is still angry with many of the doctors, nurses, and paramedics who tried to get him to understand the truth.  And he is resentful that an immediate diagnosis couldn't be made on a very complex situation and a very ill pregnant woman.

Tom still doesn't seem to understand a lot of what happened.  He was apparently in just as much denial as Andrea about the seriousness of her condition, right up until that last doctor gave her less than 24 hours to live. 

And possibly beyond that.  He was determined to get her home, and I agree with that decision, but I still think she could well have died in transit.  The pain medication mess up was apparently partly due to his rush to get her discharged against medical advice from the Denver hospital.  

My take is that all the medical professionals involved did their absolute best in a very difficult situation.  It was a miracle their combined efforts got Andrea into that Hospice bed, close enough to bring the children to her, still alive (just), and with adequate pain control at the end.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Pelised]

I disagreed with the religious,  patriarchal and woowoo medical aspects of Andrea's channel,  but I still found her a strangely peaceful person to watch. I chalked it up to "agree to disagree". I thought she was an amazingly patient mother,  hyper organized in a way I dream of being and for someone who can't...I loved her sewing vlogs. All of that died with her. I see "Tommy" as a spoiled, clueless and clumsy parent. She did literally everything for him, the house, garden, school and the business.  It will be a disaster.  In one of the vlogs the mess was apparent. Boxes stacked up, chaos. The treatment of that poor dog makes me sick. I hope he's been euthanized so his obvious agony will stop. 

As an RN, her "herbs cure everything " was laughable but benign until her death. She was so anti-medical care it literally killed her.  Yes, she likely had an unsurvivable cancer but she missed quality time and suffered when it wasn't necessary.  Listening to Tom mansplain that the surgery spread the cancer and killed her in 3 days made me almost scream at the screen. Moron. Worst of all,  this unvaccinated group of kids who have never seen a doctor and are forced to suffer without care when sick; are now all being brainwashed into fearing medical care. Andrea in one vlog said strep throat didn't require treatment...it would just resolve.  Utterly clueless that they could suffer potentially deadly heart damage.

I watch the kids and think they will forever mark a before and after. I'm sure Tom will remarry some poor delusional girl who gets pregnant right away.  She'll be overwhelmed and the boys will literally raise their sisters  forever. 

Just unbelievably tragic.  

[PennySycamore]

14 hours ago, Petronella said:

This seems highly unlikely, right? Or is there some kind of scientific basis for this? Because I have no idea what would link cancer spread to breast feeding.

I've been in the lactation field as an accredited volunteer counselor for 36 years and have NEVER heard any such nonsense.  I can think of at least two women who've been diagnosed with cancer while they are breastfeeding.  My husband's cousin's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer when their daughter was 10 months old and still nursing.  She was lucky; she lives near Boston and had Dr Susan Love as her surgeon and then had chem and radiation.  She survived her cancer.  I can't recall what kind of cancer my other friend had, but I hope she survived as well.  

I just remembered this other woman who contacted my co-Leader in LLL when she was diagnosed with, IIRC, ovarian cancer.  (I could be wrong about the type.)  Anyway, this mom wanted to preserve her breastfeeding and my co-Leader, who is a bit of flake, unfortunately, counseled her.  The mom did not have the treatment* she needed and died about a year later.  I know ovarian cancer has a terrible survival rate, but damn, this woman basically did another because she was determined to preserve the breastfeeding relationship.  If she wanted to preserve a relationship, how about the mother-child relationship which lasts way past the nursing years?   This situation still angers me after more than 30 years.  

*Breastfeeding is problematic during chemo and radiation.  The baby/child cannot be exposed to the chemo drugs through the milk and radiation often means total separation of mother and child.  It depends on what type of radiation, how it's administered and the half-life of the radioisotopes used. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by PennySycamore

[Flyinthesoup]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

I've been in the lactation field as an accredited volunteer counselor for 36 years and have NEVER heard any such nonsense.  I can think of at least two women who've been diagnosed with cancer while they are breastfeeding.  My husband's cousin's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer when their daughter was 10 months old and still nursing.  She was lucky; she lives near Boston and had Dr Susan Love as her surgeon and then had chem and radiation.  She survived her cancer.  I can't recall what kind of cancer my other friend had, but I hope she survived as well.  

I just remembered this other woman who contacted my co-Leader in LLL when she was diagnosed with, IIRC, ovarian cancer.  (I could be wrong about the type.)  Anyway, this mom wanted to preserve her breastfeeding and my co-Leader, who is a bit of flake, unfortunately, counseled her.  The mom did not have the treatment* she needed and died about a year later.  I know ovarian cancer has a terrible survival rate, but damn, this woman basically did another because she was determined to preserve the breastfeeding relationship.  If she wanted to preserve a relationship, how about the mother-child relationship which lasts way past the nursing years?   This situation still angers me after more than 30 years.  

*Breastfeeding is problematic during chemo and radiation.  The baby/child cannot be exposed to the chemo drugs through the milk and radiation often means total separation of mother and child.  It depends on what type of radiation, how it's administered and the half-life of the radioisotopes used. 

I am not in the medical field, BUT, because of family issues, I am educated to some degree,  on this issue.  I do not know about Andrea's cancer.  I'm still unsure, even after reading, exactly which type of cancer she died from, so this may not pertain to her type of cancer.  With breast cancer, there are different kinds.  With the hormones, they are looking for estrogen and progesterone receptors.  If Andrea's cancer is hormone receptive positive, such as to estrogen or progesterone, when she stops feeding, her cancer could easily grow.  I'm not sure how much Andrea was still nursing, when she initially got sick or at the time of her death.  I'm guessing she may have been weaning her at that time, which means, her estrogen levels could easily have been going up, which in turn, could fuel the cancer.  Three of my sisters had hormone positive receptors with their breast cancer.  

[AverageJane]

Andrea had inflammatory breast cancer which is usually hormone negative.  I'm surprised Tom said she had none of the changes to her breast that usually appear and I guess not surprised she didn't seek help when her lymph nodes were so swollen for a month before she died.  If she thought strep just goes away I guess she wouldn't have been overly concerned about the swollen glands. 

I was also surprised he said she was so squeamish since she seemed to be fine with home births and they are a little messy. 

[Dandruff]

I didn't watch enough videos to get a really good sense of the relationship between Andrea and Tom.  Who was deferring to who for what?  I find it odd that she was sick and largely bedridden for so long without one or the other pushing harder for better answers.  I can understand a person's reticence for traditional medical care, especially if there had been trauma, but they had nine children and one on the way who needed a reasonably healthy mom.  I realize how bad the cancer was (so the result was likely to be the same, regardless) but am wondering whether Andrea and Tom's relationship was helping or hindering her care.

[moreorlessnu]

8 hours ago, AverageJane said:

 

I'm still amazed that even after being told she had metastasized cancer she thought she could be cured with herbs. 

If I understood Tom correctly, they were waiting for a CT scan (or MRI?). Instead, a Doctor came in and told them she had about 24 hours to live. When the Doctor left, Andrea made a comment wondering about the CT scan. Tom called the Doctor back in to tell her again. Tom speculated that Andrea was woozy the first time the Doctor talked to them, and didn't fully hear what the Doctor said. Once she did understand she was going to die, that's when she wanted to go home to the kids. 

[Flyinthesoup]

58 minutes ago, AverageJane said:

Andrea had inflammatory breast cancer which is usually hormone negative.  I'm surprised Tom said she had none of the changes to her breast that usually appear and I guess not surprised she didn't seek help when her lymph nodes were so swollen for a month before she died.  If she thought strep just goes away I guess she wouldn't have been overly concerned about the swollen glands. 

I was also surprised he said she was so squeamish since she seemed to be fine with home births and they are a little messy. 

While inflammatory breast cancer is usually hormone negative, it still can be hormone receptive to estrogen and progesterone.  If I were Tom, I would be wanting to know that information for the sake of the children and their future health care.  If Andrea had any of those signs, such as swollen lymph nodes, etc., I could easily see her thinking it might be mastitis, since she was still nursing. If her nursing was starting to dwindle, again, I could easily see how some of those signs could be mistaken, in her mind, for being mastitis.  If she did not think strep needed medication, then I'm guessing she may not have medically treated any breast infections she may have had in the past, unless she had a horrible fever, maybe? Her poor body was probably so sick, it's just not easy to know sometimes, what's going on inside, especially in early pregnancy.  

Edited October 11, 2019 by Flyinthesoup
clarifying my words =)

[moreorlessnu]

11 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Honestly, in his position, the same-color-every-day thing is one of the first things that would go by the wayside. I realize they enjoy it, but it's extra work to keep up with, and it's unnecessary. And right now, unnecessary things would be mostly cut out until the family wasn't drowning.

Agreed. 

It occurred to me I haven't heard the 24/7 bible verses being played throughout the house in any video since Andrea passed away. Maybe that also went by the wayside?

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 

Andrea's sisters have been mentioned as being around and helping several times, and apparently now Grandma Kitty is helping out with the homeschooling 3 days a week.  They sound like nice and responsible people who love the children and are probably happy to help out as much as they can.

 

I think at least one of her sisters lives reasonably close. There was a video where one of her sisters was visiting. Andrea made the comment that her sister has been coming over every day because her sister "was feeling lonesome".

[JenniferJuniper]

The Tale of Tommy should serve as a lesson for all fundie men who are happy to procreate endlessly but happier still to leave all the parenting to their wives.

 

 

[FecundFundieFundus]

Just now, JenniferJuniper said:

The Tale of Tommy should serve as a lesson for all fundie men who are happy to procreate endlessly but happier still to leave all the parenting to their wives.

 

 

It's only a warning if they care about their children. Tom appears content to let his sons, mother, sisters in law and probably random YouTube People™ do the child rearing.  He won't even admit they're grieving NOW, let alone down the line when their trauma history rears its head and shit hits the fan.

[Giraffe]

1 hour ago, moreorlessnu said:

I think at least one of her sisters lives reasonably close. There was a video where one of her sisters was visiting. Andrea made the comment that her sister has been coming over every day because her sister "was feeling lonesome".

Is this sister single? ?

(On second thought it was probably inappropriate for me to bring up. I do hope he doesn’t remarry without first getting himself & the kids some serious therapy. There would be nothing ethically wrong with them marrying each other.)

Edited October 11, 2019 by Giraffe
Edited because I probably shouldn’t have probably shouldn’t have posted it initially and wanted to clarify.

[Eternalbluepearl]

This story crushes me in away I cannot explain. My heart breaks in half hearing about how she just...died. And those babies. My God, those babies. Candy and clothes and even a new wife can't replace Mommy. I can't begin to imagine how you get a child through that loss. I'm guessing there's only one accepted way in Tom's world and it begins with a J...

Warning! Rant ahead....I'm so sick of these Christian nutcases being absolutely everywhere. Bleh. I'll be watching a youtube video and someone will want to pause and talk about their faith. Wtf does your personal faith have to do with how you down-sized your kitchen or painting a piece of furniture or dollar tree deals on party supplies? I can't take it lately. I half expect to see a Bible verse in the recipes I find on Pinterest. Sorry for the rant.

[louannems]

3 hours ago, moreorlessnu said:

If I understood Tom correctly, they were waiting for a CT scan (or MRI?). Instead, a Doctor came in and told them she had about 24 hours to live. When the Doctor left, Andrea made a comment wondering about the CT scan. Tom called the Doctor back in to tell her again. Tom speculated that Andrea was woozy the first time the Doctor talked to them, and didn't fully hear what the Doctor said. Once she did understand she was going to die, that's when she wanted to go home to the kids. 

One thing I don't understand is why didn't Andrea get her CT scan on the weekend, when she needed it.  She was airlifted out of state, to what I assume was a state of the art hospital.  I worked 31 years in radiology/imaging at a Veteran Administration hospital, for gods' sake, and we had a tech 24 hours a day.  Even in the old days when we didn't, there was always an on call tech who came in whenever the radiologist approved a request from the attending doctors.

[Pelised]

"we had a tech 24 hours a day.  Even in the old days when we didn't, there was always an on call tech"

 

Yes! I've been in hospital nursing for 2 decades and there is always someone on call. Especially a hospital in Denver that receives rural life flight. I believe it was related to her extremely rapid decline more than scheduling issues. I also agree that they would have been an extremely difficult family to deal with. Tom strikes me as a know it all, argumentative dick. People that irrational about conventional medicine don't actually hear what is being said.  The paranoia and distrust almost guarantees a less than optimal outcome. Although again,  in this case I don't think that anything could have been done beyond effective pain control. No matter the nature of her breast cancer in terms of hormone receptors; she died of liver and gall bladder metastases. Even if it grew after cessation of breastfeeding, it would not have effected her in 3 days.

Those kids are the worry.  Beyond the sadness of the event,  you gotta think that this will determine their choices, temperament and personality. And I see Tom as being clueless on correctly deciphering their behavior. He'll just give them a demerit and have them read extra Bible verses.