Andrea Mills 2: Watching Tom Appear to Lose His Mind

[formergothardite]

24 minutes ago, under siege said:

I agree with you on this. Andrea did a lot of busywork.  Yes, a large family needs routines and things need to be in some kind of becoming too much like chaos, however looking back at her organizational series it dawned on me that she spend SO much time doing all that kind of creating/planning. A lot of it was for budget reasons, a lot of it was amazing (the kids parties and Halloween) but the time it all must have taken!!

It seems like she used all that time organizing crap as a way to justify ignoring her children. She could have spent that time organizing and planning amazing unit studies, but she didn't. She was very much a child collector. 

[Pelised]

27 minutes ago, Zenyatta said:

Andrea was taken to the emergency room twice in the three months that she felt ill, Tom says.  The only diagnosis was slight anemia and high blood pressure.  I am not at all anti-doctor, but I wondered why no hint of cancer was detected, especially with the swollen lymph nodes.  Andrea probably refused other tests, but it scared me to think that I could be harboring deadly cancer and a doctor could completely miss it. 

I'm sure a story like this seems frightening for that reason!  But a couple of things. First if she didn't have external signs of the breast cancer they wouldn't have looked at that.  Second,  in the ER they look at the most acute problems first.  And do thing quickly.  They do very basic labs unless there's an obvious reason to go deeper.  Her liver and gallbladder /enzymes dysfunction may not have been off at that time, if they tested for them at all. They didn't do a CT so no chance of seeing anything there. But the main reason it was missed is because she didn't follow up with anyone to investigate further! I guarantee you if she had a primary care doctor to go to they would have recognized a difference in her and looked deeper. The ER is a blunt tool.  Having regular and follow up care is the purpose and goal. And I hate to say it but patients and family that are difficult and dismissive or even aggressive are discharged asap. I mean listen to Tom "she never took even one blood pressure pill". Why ? Because THEY knew better than the doctors and didn't follow a single recommendation including follow up.  You don't need to roll over and crawl after a physician but you do need to respect that what they tell you isn't for anyone's benefit but the patient! 

[formergothardite]

32 minutes ago, Zenyatta said:

Andrea was taken to the emergency room twice in the three months that she felt ill, Tom says.  The only diagnosis was slight anemia and high blood pressure.  I am not at all anti-doctor, but I wondered why no hint of cancer was detected, especially with the swollen lymph nodes.  Andrea probably refused other tests, but it scared me to think that I could be harboring deadly cancer and a doctor could completely miss it. 

I'm wondering how they actually acted with the doctors and what he left out of this story. It seems like the doctors were very concerned about her high blood pressure but they blew this off. What other tests and advice did they ignore that would have led them to discover the cancer earlier? I'm sure they were told to follow up with a doctor which they didn't do. 

[FecundFundieFundus]

43 minutes ago, Zenyatta said:

Andrea was taken to the emergency room twice in the three months that she felt ill, Tom says.  The only diagnosis was slight anemia and high blood pressure.  I am not at all anti-doctor, but I wondered why no hint of cancer was detected, especially with the swollen lymph nodes.  Andrea probably refused other tests, but it scared me to think that I could be harboring deadly cancer and a doctor could completely miss it. 

Swollen lymph nodes just means you're sick. If you're showing signs of something being seriously wrong they check you in the ER. I was evaluated for a seizure and I got a head scan, EKG and other neurological tests. I got some imaging done on my abdomen when I had appendicitis. Other than that, do your breast/testicle exams every month, get PAP smears regularly, and keep an eye on any moles/skin changes. 

[under siege]

Just now, formergothardite said:

It seems like she used all that time organizing crap as a way to justify ignoring her children. She could have spent that time organizing and planning amazing unit studies, but she didn't. She was very much a child collector. 

She was certainly addicted to babies. Once they become toddlers she became desperate for another.  She started taking that estrogen cream to help fertility because she couldn't bear not being done.  So much for 'God's will'. 
I'd fully understand the desire for more if she was struggling to have 3 or 4 or even 5 but after Claudia, and the long(ish) break before Hannah (and the miscarriages between them) she became obsessed with getting pregnant before she was too old.
I know she wanted a do-over after the trauma she felt of Claudia's birth but it all seemed like a very unhealthy desire for more babies.

Andrea loved babies, Tom loved Andrea. Now he has to be a father to children he had to be convinced about having in the first place.*


*repeating myself on this topic, I know. Last time I rant about this particular thing, I promise*

[Pelised]

39 minutes ago, under siege said:

I agree with you on this. Andrea did a lot of busywork.  Yes, a large family needs routines and things need to be in some kind of becoming too much like chaos, however looking back at her organizational series it dawned on me that she spend SO much time doing all that kind of creating/planning. A lot of it was for budget reasons, a lot of it was amazing (the kids parties and Halloween) but the time it all must have taken!!

Yeah I agree. That freaking garden chart alone was organized down to the last cabbage.  Must have taken days! How about just sticking a flag with the kids name on it in the dirt!? The littles would not have been able to decipher anything other than that anyway.  I mean if it was for her organization benefit then great. Some people's minds work that way.  Maybe the time it took cemented it in her own mind.  But generally it all seemed like a giant time sucker to me.

In another sense, for the kids sake I'm glad she spent the time she did on birthdays and sewing, etc. It will give them good memories and comfort knowing their Mom worked that hard to make things special.  Some of it was weird,  doublework and misguided, but for it won't be that for them. Especially going forward when their lives will be impossibly difficult in comparison. 

[Zenyatta]

I missed all the hateful vlogs Andrea apparently posted (Facebook removed them), so I enjoyed watching her sewing and cool birthday parties and even her Walmart date nights.  Yesterday I saw a home-schooling video when she was working with the two little girls.  I was impressed with the workbooks and  related crafts and pronunciation lessons on a giant TV screen.  Of course this could all be for the camera, but it was was so different than the poor Rodrigues kids.  

 

 

 

[Pelised]

1 hour ago, Dandruff said:

Neatly and twice a day, I believe.

Wait, what??

30 minutes ago, Zenyatta said:

Back to the color-coordinated clothes.  With all those children, wouldn't it be easier to buy the same color T-shirt in different sizes for everyone? The younger kids would know what they were supposed to wear each day and none of them could feel jealous.  The Duggars did it.  All red polo shirts or all blue for the boys. Not that I am in any way appreciative of the Duggars. 

 

If she took the time to put everyone's name and color on clothes as she did. ..there's no reason to have them wear the same color in terms of laundry/organization.  Limit the kids clothing so you don't get buried,  rotate seasons,  donate/toss frequently.  Seem easier and less creepy than flagging your family as "oddly special" with every outing. They are certainly stared at outside of that dinky town. What kid or adolescent wants that!

[under siege]

11 minutes ago, Zenyatta said:

I missed all the hateful vlogs Andrea apparently posted (Facebook removed them), so I enjoyed watching her sewing and cool birthday parties and even her Walmart date nights.  Yesterday I saw a home-schooling video when she was working with the two little girls.  I was impressed with the workbooks and  related crafts and pronunciation lessons on a giant TV screen.  Of course this could all be for the camera, but it was was so different than the poor Rodrigues kids.  

 

 

 

This is very tame compared to the really hateful vlogs but this is an example of what she used to share. This was in the time before she gained 1000s of subbies (61 thumbs up / 67 thumbs down). Most of the comments have been deleted.
In one of the first videos I watched, she was genuinely shocked about how may strongly disagree with her views. It wasn't long after that where she shifted into more pleasant day-to-day stuff only. Letting Tom sprout his religious views on his channel and avoiding politics, for the most part, entirely.

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by under siege

[Petronella]

1 hour ago, Dandruff said:

My impression is that their connections are very wide...maybe too wide.  So many people are sending them stuff but how well do they know them?  How long will it go on and how will the family adjust if/when it stops?

I think (agree) that more local support from outside the family unit would probably be a good thing.

I won't be surprised if some of the extended multitudes start offering potential matches (wives) for Tom at some point.

I see what you mean. I don't count "the youtube people" as connections; I meant real-life connections that are mutual, and meaningful to the children. Authority figures they trust and know well, like teachers or friends' parents, people like that. Individual friends they could spend time with (not as a whole family, but each child having friends of their own), and routines that are not altered by Andrea's absence, like sports practice or gymnastics training or play rehearsal or astronomy club. It would be a real gift for them to experience persistence in other aspects of their lives. I wish they had that. You can homeschool and still have that.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Petronella

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

It seems like she used all that time organizing crap as a way to justify ignoring her children. She could have spent that time organizing and planning amazing unit studies, but she didn't. She was very much a child collector. 

Speaking of ... there is another big bullet Tom has to bite.  Although he'll probably make her sisters do it.

Unless he decides to keep the house as an eternal shrine to Andrea (unhealthy!) he needs to go through and get rid of her personal items.  Preferably gradually and carefully, so as not to upset the kids too much. And also to keep things they may use in the future or want as memories of her.  A heartbreaking task.

I don't mean getting rid the craft items used for homeschooling.  I mean sorting out the other hobby and personal items that are taking up a lot of space in that small house and Tom probably won't ever use.

Andrea had big stashes of fabric that could be donated or put into storage elsewhere in case Eden or any of the children get into sewing.  Her books took up more space in the "library" than the children's books.  Her hair supplies and cosmetics took up several shelves in that tiny bathroom.  And her clothing took up half a closet.  They need the space.

And her herb supplies.  Tom isn't going to be "herby."   For one thing herbs do have shelf life.  For another, just because herbs are "natural" it doesn't mean that they are necessarily benign. Eden is still too young to play herbalist for her siblings, even if she is interested.  I never liked how Andrea's herbs were stored within easy reach of small children.  And for the love of God get that big bottle of vodka used for tinctures off the floor and put away safely.

And while we are reorganising, perhaps Tom should move out of the master bedroom at some point.  The children need that space more.  Perhaps Tom could squash himself into one of those cubicles and move a couple of boys upstairs.  Yes, I know those are not single mattresses, they are much shorter, and poor Thomas is probably having to cram himself in these days.  Perhaps Tom should try it.  

Edited October 11, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Dandruff]

50 minutes ago, Zenyatta said:

Andrea probably refused other tests, but it scared me to think that I could be harboring deadly cancer and a doctor could completely miss it.

Between her "white coat syndrome" and pregnancy I imagine she was agreeing to tests very cautiously.  But I doubt that quicker action/diagnosis in the last month or so would have made much of a difference, aside from enabling a smoother transition for her and her family.  She had rapidly advancing cancer.

Doctors sometimes miss cancer and sometimes it's difficult to diagnose early.  An extended family member of mine died in the prime of his life after visiting a trusted doctor, having tests, and the results being misread.  A woman I knew had exploratory surgery, after having had other tests, and found out that she was terminal.  Personally (I'm not a medical professional), I think Andrea and Tom should have plowed through her apprehensions once it was clear that the symptoms weren't going away - given her family's history with cancer and all those children - but it was her/their call.

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, Zenyatta said:

esterday I saw a home-schooling video when she was working with the two little girls.  I was impressed with the workbooks and  related crafts and pronunciation lessons on a giant TV screen. 

I had the opposite reaction to some of her homeschool videos.  The TV would be blaring, kids would be talking, and the older kids were sitting at the table trying to work. I can't imagine trying to teach myself in that sort of an environment! It was so loud and on top of all the other noise it Andrea had the Bible playing nonstop.   At least the older Rod children can go off to their rooms to self educate in some amounts of quiet. 

I don't view their education as being better than the Rods. Jill does, or at least did Nurie might now, do worksheets with the little ones. Once they are reading, writing and doing basic math they are on their own, pretty much like the Mills children. Jill does get some good books, some which are way better than ACE. I would say Saxon Math and Abeka are head and shoulders above ACE. 

Here is an interview with a guy who did a study on ACE:

Quote

Every independent academic study that has ever been conducted on ACE has concluded that it provides an inadequate or unacceptable education.

Quote

I can’t really say it any more clearly than what I already said: every independent academic review ever has concluded ACE is inadequate. ACE’s idea of learning is that it is almost entirely about memorizing facts. I can’t think of any reputable academics in the field of education who believe that. There are educational conservatives who believe that education is about assimilating a body of knowledge, but even they don’t advocate the kind of robotic, parrot-fashion memorization ACE provides.

Quote

When I graduated from my ACE school, I could not keep up in any discussion on culture, science, or literature with my peers. Community college was my first taste of real education and everyone around me complained how the general ed classes were boring while I struggled like mad to learn the basic concepts.

https://faithlessfeminist.com/blog-posts/exposing-accelerated-christian-education/

Here is a lady who reviewed the ACE science books,some of which haven't been updated since the early 80's!

https://the-orbit.net/entequilaesverdad/2016/06/19/repost-adventures-ace-ii-inherit-earth/

The Mills and Rod children are both getting unbelievably shitting educations, but by shear luck of grifting the Rod kids might get a slightly better one because the books they have aren't as terrible as ACE. 

[Jody]

58 minutes ago, under siege said:

She was certainly addicted to babies. Once they become toddlers she became desperate for another.  She started taking that estrogen cream to help fertility because she couldn't bear not being done.  So much for 'God's will'. 
I'd fully understand the desire for more if she was struggling to have 3 or 4 or even 5 but after Claudia, and the long(ish) break before Hannah (and the miscarriages between them) she became obsessed with getting pregnant before she was too old.
I know she wanted a do-over after the trauma she felt of Claudia's birth but it all seemed like a very unhealthy desire for more babies.

Andrea loved babies, Tom loved Andrea. Now he has to be a father to children he had to be convinced about having in the first place.*


*repeating myself on this topic, I know. Last time I rant about this particular thing, I promise*

Men love women. Women love children. Children love hamsters.

[Zenyatta]

34 minutes ago, under siege said:

This is very tame compared to the really hateful vlogs but this is an example of what she used to share. This was in the time before she gained 1000s of subbies (61 thumbs up / 67 thumbs down). Most of the comments have been deleted.
In one of the first videos I watched, she was genuinely shocked about how may strongly disagree with her views. It wasn't long after that where she shifted into more pleasant day-to-day stuff only. Letting Tom sprout his religious views on his channel and avoiding politics, for the most part, entirely.

 

Thank you for posting.  I had no idea.  I feel embarrassed that I could be sucked in so easily by people who had the Bible broadcast in all of their (few) rooms 24 hours a day. Why is Saul brown-skinned? Let me guess. 

[Palimpsest]

I just noticed we have a few new members joining us on this thread.  I don't want to try to tag people unless I miss someone.  But welcome all! 

Free Jinger is very big so new people can find it hard to navigate.  We do have a couple of older threads on the family if you want to do some reading to catch up.  (You don't have to read them but you might want to. )

The first Mills Family thread is archived here: 

The second thread is here:

 

[formergothardite]

12 minutes ago, Zenyatta said:

Thank you for posting.  I had no idea.  I feel embarrassed that I could be sucked in so easily by people who had the Bible broadcast in all of their (few) rooms 24 hours a day.

Andrea had this ability to make people not realize what the family really was. You are hardly the only person who didn't realize how awful she really was, so don't be embarrassed! I think she had a way of presenting things that made it easy to miss the nasty bits of their lives. Andrea was kind of like the Bates in this way. She did a good job of sugar coating everything to make it seem like she was less awful than some of our other fundies. 

[Giraffe]

@Zenyatta, You hit on what makes these families so dangerous - many of them initially appear to be kind and loving and close-knit and sometimes it takes a while for the ugly underbelly to appear. How many people thought the Duggars were some kind of special until Joshly Madison happened? What makes that even more unbelievable to me are the number of humpers who believe Joshly’s an anomaly in an otherwise foolproof system (gothardism, etc). 

[mollysmom]

I was home schooled with Abeka & honestly, didn't learn anything. Seriously, I'm not very smart, at all. There is no denying that. Part of the blame in my opinion, is on my mother. She didn't teach. She sat in the living room talking on the phone while I was at the kitchen table, or in my bedroom "teaching" myself. I put some of the blame on myself because I absolutely hated home schooling so I wasn't exactly a star pupil. But honestly, it's really embarrassing how much I don't know (basic stuff) at 42 years old. 

Not arguing the point that @formergothardite is making about the different curriculums. I personally don't know anything about any of them other than Abeka but I feel like the "system" aka my mother...failed me. 

[formergothardite]

@mollysmom, Abeka might be just as shitty. I've heard people go to schools that used it say it wasn't awful. @nelliebelle1197, didn't you go to a school that used Abeka? I do know of people who used the Abeka videos who hated them and said they learned nothing. I'm guessing most children aren't going to do too well with just being told to teach themselves, no matter what the curriculum. 

The reason I was thinking Abeka science might not be as awful as ACE is because they have updated things since 1986. I would think all the creation science would tend to be on the bad side. It would be hard for it not to be when they insist on ignoring so much actual science. 

[Pelised]

3 hours ago, under siege said:

This is very tame compared to the really hateful vlogs but this is an example of what she used to share. This was in the time before she gained 1000s of subbies (61 thumbs up / 67 thumbs down). Most of the comments have been deleted.
In one of the first videos I watched, she was genuinely shocked about how may strongly disagree with her views. It wasn't long after that where she shifted into more pleasant day-to-day stuff only. Letting Tom sprout his religious views on his channel and avoiding politics, for the most part, entirely.

 

Jesus Christ!!!! Are you serious??? I had no idea she was such a well...loon. Anyone who thinks the mass shootings are done by actors is simply insane. Wow.

[Petronella]

30 minutes ago, mollysmom said:

I was home schooled with Abeka & honestly, didn't learn anything. Seriously, I'm not very smart, at all. There is no denying that. Part of the blame in my opinion, is on my mother. She didn't teach. She sat in the living room talking on the phone while I was at the kitchen table, or in my bedroom "teaching" myself. I put some of the blame on myself because I absolutely hated home schooling so I wasn't exactly a star pupil. But honestly, it's really embarrassing how much I don't know (basic stuff) at 42 years old. 

Not arguing the point that @formergothardite is making about the different curriculums. I personally don't know anything about any of them other than Abeka but I feel like the "system" aka my mother...failed me. 

All this talk of "homeschoolers" who leave their kids to just teach themselves from a book or workbook breaks my heart. That's not homeschooling; that's just keeping your kids out of school.

I do acknowledge that with any form of education, independent study has an important place. But that's as one facet of the approach, not the sum total.

 

[catlady]

1 hour ago, mollysmom said:

I was home schooled with Abeka & honestly, didn't learn anything. Seriously, I'm not very smart, at all. There is no denying that. Part of the blame in my opinion, is on my mother. She didn't teach. She sat in the living room talking on the phone while I was at the kitchen table, or in my bedroom "teaching" myself. I put some of the blame on myself because I absolutely hated home schooling so I wasn't exactly a star pupil. But honestly, it's really embarrassing how much I don't know (basic stuff) at 42 years old. 

Not arguing the point that @formergothardite is making about the different curriculums. I personally don't know anything about any of them other than Abeka but I feel like the "system" aka my mother...failed me. 

Regarding your second and third sentences:  I disagree. There’s a huge difference between not being smart and not having the opportunity to learn. The sheer fact that you are aware of how your homeschooling failed you indicates to me that you are indeed intelligent. ??☀️??? (I was looking for a heart emoji but these were more fun.)

[Caroline]

4 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Between her "white coat syndrome" and pregnancy I imagine she was agreeing to tests very cautiously.  But I doubt that quicker action/diagnosis in the last month or so would have made much of a difference, aside from enabling a smoother transition for her and her family.  She had rapidly advancing cancer.

Doctors sometimes miss cancer and sometimes it's difficult to diagnose early.  An extended family member of mine died in the prime of his life after visiting a trusted doctor, having tests, and the results being misread.  A woman I knew had exploratory surgery, after having had other tests, and found out that she was terminal.  Personally (I'm not a medical professional), I think Andrea and Tom should have plowed through her apprehensions once it was clear that the symptoms weren't going away - given her family's history with cancer and all those children - but it was her/their call.

If I could have a super power or a fantastic wish it would be to never have a reason to visit another doctor for the rest of my life.  I have always had a real phobia of doctors, and I don't really know the cause.  Despite this, I grudgingly show up at my PCP's  every year and do what I am asked to do to stay as healthy as possible.  I know that this is not a guarantee of living a disease free life, but I feel like having a relationship of some kind with a medical professional is a good line of defense for everyone.  It doesn't sound like Andrea even trusted a doctor for a yearly physical, so she wasn't able to build trust with someone just in case.  It is clear that her cancer was rare and unstoppable, but most people probably benefit from having a relationship with a doctor who knows something about them.

[Giraffe]

It doesn’t surprise me they didn’t believe in yearly physicals. Preventive medicine could be seen as anti-biblical. There’s a verse that talks about it being the sick who need a doctor, not the healthy*.
 

 

 

*Mt 9:12, Lk 5:31