Josiah and Lauren 15: The Drama Llama Rolls On

[Peaches-n-Beans]

9 minutes ago, Chewing Gum said:

I agree, John had to basically wait 14 years (16-30, is he 30 yet?) in which he couldn't look at, talk to, kiss a girl or help himself out. Then he has one at his disposal for every second of every day. He'a a teenager now, but on camera. We're seeing the unnatural outcome of his upbringing. I'd worry more if he was indifferent towards her so soon after marriage. Like Siah is in my eyes: he's talking all lovey-dovey about Lauren but I don't see ANY body language supporting that. To me they're just friends with benefits. 

I'll be the first to say I don't really like Lauren. I feel bad for her, but I don't like her. But this is entirely true. However I do think she was in love with him but the harsh realities of jumping into marriage in your first relationship while that relationship is fairly young has cracked a lot of that. He's not just some idealistic dream anymore, he's a real person and he's very flawed, and has annoying habits, and might not want the same things in life that she does and that's been hard. 

I would say I feel bad for Josiah in the same manner but he always seemed less into her then she was into him. 

[Glasgowghirl]

On 10/25/2019 at 8:16 AM, Peaches-n-Beans said:

I'll be the first to say I don't really like Lauren. I feel bad for her, but I don't like her. But this is entirely true. However I do think she was in love with him but the harsh realities of jumping into marriage in your first relationship while that relationship is fairly young has cracked a lot of that. He's not just some idealistic dream anymore, he's a real person and he's very flawed, and has annoying habits, and might not want the same things in life that she does and that's been hard. 

I would say I feel bad for Josiah in the same manner but he always seemed less into her then she was into him. 

I think Josiah kind of forced himself into trying to make this courtship work because he didn't want another failure, I think personality wise Marjorie was a betting much for him but maybe if they had been a bit a bit older and the whole Josh scandals were not happening that may have worked out better. Something about Lauren makes me not like her match either, I don't think she is as horrible as people make her out to be and I recognise some of her issues from myself as a person that battled depression since I was 11 and didn't finally get it sorted until I was in my 20s and dropped out of two college courses because of it. I hope for both their sakes and the baby about to arrive soon that they manage to work on things and make the best of the situation because lets face it even if they both secretly wanted out the marriage divorce is not going to be something they consider. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Glasgowghirl
Silly error

[Johannah]

I just watched the most recent episode and saw on Lauren’s Asa keepsake box: “made September 2018, home to Jesus October 4th, 2018”. Which means, AT MOST, Lauren was 5-6 weeks pregnant when she miscarried, which is technically considered a chemical pregnancy. Most women don’t even know they are pregnant until they are 4-6 weeks along. There are losses at that point that are viewed as late, heavy periods. 

I know everyone grieves in their own way, but Lauren’s reaction seems really extreme. I can’t help but think she is predisposed to depression or struggling with some other aspect of her life besides the pregnancy loss. Or that this is the SOTDRT at its finest - She seems to think this was an actual baby who was inexplicably taken from them, instead of having the knowledge and educational background to understand that sometimes when sperm meets egg chromosomes are misaligned, HCG is briefly detected due to implantation, but that ball of cells was likely incapable of ever becoming a human baby. 

I had a miscarriage at around 5 weeks, and it was also my first pregnancy. I was definitely sad and felt the loss of a potential baby that I was picturing, but I did not feel anything close to the devastation that Lauren seems to have experienced, and is still experiencing.

I do not mean to begrudge her her grief. I just was shocked to see the dates on the box because based on her reaction I had been expecting that she had been much farther along in her pregnancy when the loss occurred. And I feel sorry for her that she is going through this without being more informed about the basics of fertility and reproduction. 

[crancraz]

I vaguely remember discussion when the miscarriage happened that she stated somewhere that she was about ten weeks pregnant when the miscarriage happened. I was definitely under the impression that she was farther along when she lost the baby. I’ve had three miscarriages around the 5-6 week mark and yes, it was sad but it was nothing compared to the devastation at the loss of my pregnancies at 16 and 20 weeks. 

 

I suspect that given given her tangential experience with Joy’s late loss, she probably has a lot of anxiety around carrying this baby to term. Maybe her overgrief stems from some of this anxiety and wanting to control her circumstances. 

[adidas]

I remember reading that they miscarried a few days after finding out about the pregnancy. She had bad cramps when she was getting ready to go to a wedding in October and thought she had eaten something with gluten in it.
She had the same due date as Jessa, which was said to be June 5th. That means she probably conceived September 13th, which means she would have missed her period early October. She miscarried October 4th.

[just_ordinary]

2 hours ago, Johannah said:

I just watched the most recent episode and saw on Lauren’s Asa keepsake box: “made September 2018, home to Jesus October 4th, 2018”. Which means, AT MOST, Lauren was 5-6 weeks pregnant when she miscarried, which is technically considered a chemical pregnancy. Most women don’t even know they are pregnant until they are 4-6 weeks along. There are losses at that point that are viewed as late, heavy periods. 

I know everyone grieves in their own way, but Lauren’s reaction seems really extreme. I can’t help but think she is predisposed to depression or struggling with some other aspect of her life besides the pregnancy loss. Or that this is the SOTDRT at its finest - She seems to think this was an actual baby who was inexplicably taken from them, instead of having the knowledge and educational background to understand that sometimes when sperm meets egg chromosomes are misaligned, HCG is briefly detected due to implantation, but that ball of cells was likely incapable of ever becoming a human baby. 

I had a miscarriage at around 5 weeks, and it was also my first pregnancy. I was definitely sad and felt the loss of a potential baby that I was picturing, but I did not feel anything close to the devastation that Lauren seems to have experienced, and is still experiencing.

I do not mean to begrudge her her grief. I just was shocked to see the dates on the box because based on her reaction I had been expecting that she had been much farther along in her pregnancy when the loss occurred. And I feel sorry for her that she is going through this without being more informed about the basics of fertility and reproduction. 

A chemical pregnancy is still a real pregnancy in medical sciences and not a late period. And it’s absolutely possible to find “the baby” aka the gestational sac or the yolk sac and even a heartbeat around 5- 6 weeks on a vaginal us. That’s pretty early but not uncommon. A gestational sac is a positive sign of a real pregnancy, but it’s not a guarantee that a pregnancy is healthy and will proceed normally.

This really annoys me. I agree that Lauren’s grieve is pretty extrem and it comes across as absolutely over the top. But there is no need to go against science to belittle(?) her story.

With the rise of birth control I actually would argue that it’s definitely not the majority any more that doesn’t know they are pregnant when they miss their period. The many forms of Birth control (the pill especially, with all its negativ side effects) has brought us in the position that we can decide when we actively start trying for a baby. Failing birth control or wrong usage aside, many are actively trying to get pregnant and with modern pregnancy tests they detect it sometimes pretty early. That’s why the rate of chemical pregnancies and early miscarriages has grown that much. This might not be the case in the US but in Germany, contraption is covered by general health insurance from a very young age and I don’t think parents can easily find out about it because it falls under the doctor patient privilege. So contraception is a pretty accepted concept here.

We cannot make fun of those Fundies for throwing the pregnancy test in the cup as soon as they had their first kiss and than act as if it’s strange they even know about it early on. There are thousands of pages on pregnancy boards full of people spending thousands of dollars/Euros/whatever on pregnancy tests, starting to test a week after ovulation. That’s the new normal as far as I am aware.

[LancetteShing99]

2 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

We cannot make fun of those Fundies for throwing the pregnancy test in the cup as soon as they had their first kiss and than act as if it’s strange they even know about it early on. There are thousands of pages on pregnancy boards full of people spending thousands of dollars/Euros/whatever on pregnancy tests, starting to test a week after ovulation. That’s the new normal as far as I am aware.

It is. As I'm currently TTC I read on a lot of those boards and there are many, many women who start to test as early as possible and at least once a day.

I didn't take the test until I missed my period for almost 3 weeks. So an early miscarriage would have been a late period for me. But I'm not the typical TTC-woman.

I also don't get why she should be less sad because she was only 5 weeks along than she could have been if she was e.g. 10 weeks along. I get that an early miscarriage is different from a late term miscarriage or a stilbirth because you don't have to birth an actual baby. But she still lost a future with a very wanted baby.

[Sullie06]

I've lost two pregnancies. One at 9 weeks and one at 12 weeks. Both of those pregnancies we saw the heartbeat around 6 weeks on ultrasound and with my second pregnancy loss had a positive ultrasound at 9 wks as well. I think knowing they had heartbeats prior to losing them made it harder to accept/grieve. My daughter, on the other hand, was a twin pregnancy but no fetal pole ever formed in the second sac and it was diagnosed as vanishing twin syndrome (which is basically a blighted ovum). That loss doesn't effect me as much. Sure I look at my daughter sometimes and imagine her having a twin but I know that baby was never really here. I think grief is so personal, it's hard to judge the way another reacts to it. I think Lauren is a bit over the top but then again, pregnancy and motherhood is her entire life goal. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I was just thinking about this, but Lauren, has nothing else to do but think about her miscarriage. She doesn't work, she doesn't have any kids, she just sits around all day reading bible verses and brushing her hair, or what ever she does to fill her days of being a Godly Wife. 

[amendgitan]

On 9/27/2019 at 3:19 PM, patsymae said:

While I hope I'm not diminishing the pain of miscarriage or stillbirth, or the choices anyone makes when that happens to them, I can't help but think this public display is part of the Duggars' anti-reproductive-freedom agenda. Like with the televised "funeral" and sicko doctored pictures for Jubilee. 

 

100%. I was saying the same exact thing to my family when watching Lauren, her mother and Grandma Duggar and her Asa box. 

[amendgitan]

On 10/4/2019 at 9:54 AM, Dandruff said:

My sense (from watching the shows) is that Josiah and JB don't get along very well.  If that's the case, and Josiah found a family friend who he could relate to better and be supported by, then I'd say good for him.

Don't know what's going on with Josiah and Lauren.  I get strange vibes from them but don't think there's any clear cause, or that it's helpful, to speculate on their orientations.

Yeah but is the purpose of this site to be helpful to the Duggars? 

On 10/6/2019 at 9:05 AM, SassyPants said:

While I agree about Joy and really questioned marriage and motherhood for her at the time those both occurred, I think Joy and Austin are well matched, and they seem really happy. She also seems to enjoy Gideon. They seem like a happy little family. Can you imagine Jinger and Jeremy living in a camper? 

Agreed. But how will it be for her when she's on her fifth child? 

[amendgitan]

On 10/12/2019 at 11:47 PM, LacyMay said:

I felt the exact same way but didn't know how to explain it. 

It also felt a little like she was using this baby to talk more about how she lost Asa. I'm not sure how to phrase it but it felt uncomfortable. 

The phrase is "milking it". 

On 10/13/2019 at 12:38 AM, just_ordinary said:

I see this so much lately and as I am not a native speaker it truly confuses me sometimes. It makes me stop, read again and then think about it because I would have used ME but you know- I know I could be wrong. It really interrupts me. And the more I read it the more I doubt my own abilities. 

Just take out the other person, say the phrase and see if it fits. So here it would be, if you said it Lauren's way, "The Lord really blessed I." Which should sound wrong. 

That's an easy way to double check the grammar. 

[freshlemonade]

Lauren needs some hobbies.  And a squad.  As annoying as the #keepmarching #seekjoy #momwarrior Sierra types are, I think Lauren would benefit from some of those types of friendships.  She probably annoys everybody too much to have a lot of girlfriends though.  Do she and Lily still do things together?  

[Johannah]

11 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

A chemical pregnancy is still a real pregnancy in medical sciences and not a late period. And it’s absolutely possible to find “the baby” aka the gestational sac or the yolk sac and even a heartbeat around 5- 6 weeks on a vaginal us. That’s pretty early but not uncommon. A gestational sac is a positive sign of a real pregnancy, but it’s not a guarantee that a pregnancy is healthy and will proceed normally.

This really annoys me. I agree that Lauren’s grieve is pretty extrem and it comes across as absolutely over the top. But there is no need to go against science to belittle(?) her story.

With the rise of birth control I actually would argue that it’s definitely not the majority any more that doesn’t know they are pregnant when they miss their period. The many forms of Birth control (the pill especially, with all its negativ side effects) has brought us in the position that we can decide when we actively start trying for a baby. Failing birth control or wrong usage aside, many are actively trying to get pregnant and with modern pregnancy tests they detect it sometimes pretty early. That’s why the rate of chemical pregnancies and early miscarriages has grown that much. This might not be the case in the US but in Germany, contraption is covered by general health insurance from a very young age and I don’t think parents can easily find out about it because it falls under the doctor patient privilege. So contraception is a pretty accepted concept here.

We cannot make fun of those Fundies for throwing the pregnancy test in the cup as soon as they had their first kiss and than act as if it’s strange they even know about it early on. There are thousands of pages on pregnancy boards full of people spending thousands of dollars/Euros/whatever on pregnancy tests, starting to test a week after ovulation. That’s the new normal as far as I am aware.

I know that a chemical pregnancy is a real pregnancy and an early loss is a real miscarriage. I tried to conceive for over a year, tracking and testing as early as possible. I conceived on my 7th cycle trying and miscarried at about 5 weeks, just like Lauren. I finally did IVF and now have 2 children.

It was exhausting having to explain to people that a chemical pregnancy was still a real pregnancy, and a real loss. But for me it did feel like a difference that there was never a heartbeat detected. And I found comfort in knowing that the vast majority of miscarriages, particularly early losses/chemical pregnancies are due to chromosomal abnormalities and that the conception would never have developed into an actual baby.

My miscarriage still felt like a disappointment and a loss bc I so badly wanted to be pregnant and I already knew the due date, etc. But I do not relate to naming it as though it were an actual child and imagining that it’s a person in heaven.

Lauren’s identification with her pregnancy and miscarriage as the inexplicable loss of a very real child seems to be compounding her grief, which is tragic. And I just wonder how much of her perception of the nature of her loss is due to her fundie beliefs and/or a lack of education and knowledge about fertility and reproduction. Michelle Duggar thinks she caused her miscarriage by using birth control pills, and was told as much by a medical doctor. So guilt and ignorance surrounding reproduction is not without precedent in this community. And a miscarriage is sad enough without having it exacerbated by misinformation and fundamentalism. 

[Screamapillar]

10 minutes ago, Johannah said:

But I do not relate to naming it as though it were an actual child and imagining that it’s a person in heaven.

This is what I wonder about Lauren. What image does she have of Asa in heaven meeting Grandma Mary? A baby? A child? A full grown adult? Does she have this perfect image of a child that none of her children will ever live up to?

At this point I'm fully expecting the birth announcement for her daughter to be 90% about Asa.

[Melissa1977]

9 minutes ago, Screamapillar said:

This is what I wonder about Lauren. What image does she have of Asa in heaven meeting Grandma Mary? A baby? A child? A full grown adult? Does she have this perfect image of a child that none of her children will ever live up to?.

A blonde blue-eyed baby like Josiah was. 

I really hope the baby girl they are expecting turns to be a quiet, pretty one. Because expectations will be high and I don't see Lauren patient or specially caring. (But I have to admit I thought Jessa would be a hard mom and she surprised me being so kind!).

[SillyDillys]

So my boyfriend and I are "courting" just to see how long we can go and understand the Duggar way. (It will be a month nov 1st) and its totally flawed. No alone time, no touching besides side hugs. Its freaking hard and is making me understand how fundies can confuse love for lust. (I am not saying fundie couples who courted are miserable, just that maybe if they were allowed to date some wouldnt have married. Josiah and lauren dont seem very compatible. (Lauren was in love with the idea of fundie royalty and josiah was in lust?) And now they realize that maybe they werent meant to be, but they cant admit that to themselves or each other because jesus (their parents) brought them together. It's sad really

[Iamtheway]

2 hours ago, SillyDillys said:

So my boyfriend and I are "courting" just to see how long we can go and understand the Duggar way. (It will be a month nov 1st) and its totally flawed. No alone time, no touching besides side hugs. Its freaking hard and is making me understand how fundies can confuse love for lust. (I am not saying fundie couples who courted are miserable, just that maybe if they were allowed to date some wouldnt have married. Josiah and lauren dont seem very compatible. (Lauren was in love with the idea of fundie royalty and josiah was in lust?) And now they realize that maybe they werent meant to be, but they cant admit that to themselves or each other because jesus (their parents) brought them together. It's sad really

That sounds like an awesome experiment. Who does the chaperoning? Was there a courtprosal? Will you move into engagement and handholding by Christmas you think? 

[amendgitan]

On 10/13/2019 at 8:10 AM, Mama Mia said:

I think Lauren really needs help. 
 

I had a second trimester loss between my second and third child and really lost it. I made a phenomenal number of bad, impulsive decisions. I did not recognize it was from grief and depression at the time, because I was too caught up - but Lauren seems to still be REALLLY struggling. 

Or maybe she just wants to appear like she's really struggling. 

[amendgitan]

On 10/14/2019 at 12:26 PM, Timetostoplurking said:

I’m from a generation that didn’t grow up with social media.  So for me, all of Lauren’s public “messages” and IG pictures just seems like an ego stroke opportunity, more than actual grieving.  I have no doubt that she is grieving, it just the “publicness” that makes me go WTF.  I can’t imagine how words from strangers online can make up for kindness from your family and friends. I guess I’m a more private person than Lauren. 

You know I do have doubt she's grieving. At first I thought this girl was just a sweet fundie toeing the fundie line. Now I think there may be something wrong with her. Like mentally. And not depression. 

[amendgitan]

On 10/15/2019 at 11:47 PM, Jody said:

One week one day. Is the length of the pregnancy in anyway significant to you?

I think carrying a child almost to term is far different from losing a pregnancy soon after learning it's happening. Also having a miscarriage after years of trying is horrific and likely far different compared to a first pregnancy when you haven't tried at all. 

That also goes for multiple miscarriages. 

Of course most women grieve unless they didn't want the baby. Something just feels off here. It seems over the top. And not that authentic to me. I hope I'm not being unfair. And I certainly don't mean to minimize the experience of so many who have shared their own personal pain on here. 

[justmy2cents]

6 hours ago, Johannah said:

Lauren’s identification with her pregnancy and miscarriage as the inexplicable loss of a very real child seems to be compounding her grief, which is tragic. And I just wonder how much of her perception of the nature of her loss is due to her fundie beliefs. And a miscarriage is sad enough without having it exacerbated by fundamentalism. 

I completely agree. She literally questioned the purpose of her life if she couldn’t have a baby. That’s really sad. Michelle told her that losing a first pregnancy is harder than losing one when you already have a child to hold which is true.  Hopefully this baby’s birth will put things a little more into perspective for her.

[CrazyMumma]

having the whole thing videoed kind of makes you feel like it needs to be a bit dramatic to be worth the videoing..   She might not be ok and she might be... but she may have been encouraged to make it as dramatic as possible for tv.

sorry if I'm not very clear in what I mean... half asleep  pregnancy is hard.

Edited November 1, 2019 by CrazyMumma
missed a word

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I really hope she’s pulled herself together since this was filmed, but the Asa cake at her shower makes me think probably not. Josiah must be praying that the baby takes her mind off of it.

[just_ordinary]

11 hours ago, Johannah said:

I know that a chemical pregnancy is a real pregnancy and an early loss is a real miscarriage. I tried to conceive for over a year, tracking and testing as early as possible. I conceived on my 7th cycle trying and miscarried at about 5 weeks, just like Lauren. I finally did IVF and now have 2 children.

It was exhausting having to explain to people that a chemical pregnancy was still a real pregnancy, and a real loss. But for me it did feel like a difference that there was never a heartbeat detected. And I found comfort in knowing that the vast majority of miscarriages, particularly early losses/chemical pregnancies are due to chromosomal abnormalities and that the conception would never have developed into an actual baby.

My miscarriage still felt like a disappointment and a loss bc I so badly wanted to be pregnant and I already knew the due date, etc. But I do not relate to naming it as though it were an actual child and imagining that it’s a person in heaven.

Lauren’s identification with her pregnancy and miscarriage as the inexplicable loss of a very real child seems to be compounding her grief, which is tragic. And I just wonder how much of her perception of the nature of her loss is due to her fundie beliefs and/or a lack of education and knowledge about fertility and reproduction. Michelle Duggar thinks she caused her miscarriage by using birth control pills, and was told as much by a medical doctor. So guilt and ignorance surrounding reproduction is not without precedent in this community. And a miscarriage is sad enough without having it exacerbated by misinformation and fundamentalism. 

I think I might have misread your comment then. If so I apologise for jumping at you.