Josiah and Lauren 15: The Drama Llama Rolls On

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

Lauren puzzles me.

She went to college so she’s been exposed to others. Yet she lacks basic social skills. She appears to not think or know how things will be received by others  

She is from a large family but she acts like a spoiled princess. It’s like she’s never been told no before. She acts like everything should be handed to her  

She’s stunted but I’m not sure she’s even at the maturity level of a high schooler. 

 

I absolutely think there are fundie princesses. And depending on the dynamics, they can actually come from larger families. I think Lauren could be a fundie princess. Another fundie princess that comes to mind is Braggie from M is for Mama. She’s a fundie princess all grown up. And she’s insufferable. I think Erin Bates was a bit of a princess in her family. Although she couldn’t go full princess because that family was just too big. I wouldn’t be surprised if Josie Duggar grew up to be the fundie princess of the family. She’s already treated as the miracle baby. 

[theotherelise]

I know several people who are regularly insensitive and thoughtless. One friend grew up with a narcissistic mother and I think, despite her efforts, she struggles to show personal empathy or to be able to see things from another’s perspective. Maybe it’s because of her childhood or maybe it’s just who she is. She has compassion and cares for people, especially in a charity situation, but she is really bad sometimes one on one. She had a 5 month old when our mutual friend was going through that awful waiting time between seeing an empty sac ultrasound at 7 weeks and the second scan a week later that would confirm her it was a blighted ovum. No-empathy friend asked miscarriage-friend if she could babysit that weekend. No-empathy friend was not someone who ever asked about my infertility or how I felt. She genuinely seemed uncomfortable when I expressed sad or angry emotions about my pain.

People can grow and be less self-centered, but it takes a lot of intentional work. I’m not sure being raised fundie contributes overmuch, but I can see that if you are raised to think you’re extra special (told your anointed by God in some way or held up as the godly example in different groups or your family, the smart one or star athlete) then you could be stunted in empathy. Sometimes religion or worldview grounds people, sometimes it makes them feel set apart and better.

I always harp on it, but more than anything I just don’t understand the desire to be “famous” in this way. It exposes every nasty quote to the world and makes growth seem even further away. 

Lauren probably did feel very disappointed in the four months following her miscarriage that she wasn’t pregnant again. That’s not a wrong thing to feel, TTC is a mind f*ck and trying after loss can really bring up pain. I tried for a long time and of course it got so much harder, but I was disappointed even at four months. I  just didn’t know how much more painful it could get. That naïveté requires that you listen to others and work extra hard to see other people’s experiences sensitively.

The problem is by quoting it to a magazine, you’ve shown us all that only your pain and perspective matter to you. You’ve not progressed in your processing or thinking. When you develop your empathy abilities, you can say, “it was emotional trying to conceive again after our loss. We are so thankful we were able to get and stay pregnant. We really appreciate that gift and our hearts continue to feel for those who are going through pain as they look to grow their families.”

Reality tv arrests development. As long as Lauren has a spotlight on her, she will see her life as more special than others.

Edited November 15, 2019 by theotherelise

[Syriana]

On 11/15/2019 at 4:01 AM, kmachete14 said:

 

Someone that young should not be "trying" to get pregnant!!!

I mean you just discovered sex and are in the "honeymoon"

phase of a relationship. Shouldn't you just be going at it

like bunnies and discovering how to orgasm

in every which way??? I can't imagine the drudgery

of "trying" and tracking ovulation and all that at an age

where I was so horny I was basically wet 24/7 and would

jump my boyfriend (and vice versa) any time we were alone . . . 

so sad they've already reduced such a fun

and bonding activity to an anxiety-ridden means to one end

I don't have an insight into the sex lives of the other fundies but it seems like the other young couples get pregnant "on accident" from just too much lovin -- not because they are TTC !! 

 

 

 

 

In fundiland, probably not...especially as they seem to see many of the most efficient and pleasurable 'every which way' roads to orgasm as being unbiblical.  

Edited November 16, 2019 by samurai_sarah
Formatting

[tabitha2]

People back in the day people saw saw Jessa Duggar the Epitome of a Fundie Princess. If she had not been born into her life she would have been a high school mean girl cheerleader. Not sure they were totally wrong either.

[Georgiana]

13 hours ago, Cheetah said:

I don't know much about where she went to school but my perception of community college classes is that they don't necessarily have the bonding potential of either high school or residential college.  They can draw from a much wider age range and from people who are only there for one semester / one class in some cases.  So it might be a lot easier to make it through a few classes without ever being really challenged in your world view socially.  

I went to college in LA and lived on campus, then transferred back to my local state school (UW. Go Huskies!) and lived at home.  I can say that even though these were both residential colleges, the experience is incredibly different if you do not live on campus.  When I lived on campus, the socializing opportunities were basically thrust upon me.  But when I lived at home, I would have to seek out those socializing opportunities...which I didn't because I was working.  So honestly, I didn't do a whole lot of socializing at UW.  All of my good "college friends" are from my first college.  I met people in classes and stuff, was a part of study groups, but I never had time to do much with them outside of school or develop deep bonds.  

So what I am saying is that if you choose to decline the socializing aspect of college, you absolutely can do that.  You can 100% just show up for classes, get a degree, and really not do the whole "college experience" thing that results in emotional maturation.  It's even easier to do at community college because in that case, a lot of students are not traditional college students and aren't doing the "college experience" thing anyway so there's little pressure to go to social functions, athletic events, etc.  

[Iamtheway]

9 hours ago, Jody said:

That’s so awful. Did the ivf work in the end/are you still trying (I am). Best wishes.

Five years after we started trying I got pregnant naturally and miscarried. One month after that loss I got pregnant again, naturally again, and we had a son. I don’t know why it suddenly worked two times in three months after all those years but it did. I havn’t forgotten what it was like though, it was the hardest and most painful thing I have ever gone through. But now it’s also the road we had to travel to get this specific child, the best child in the whole world and that makes all the struggles, all the pain and all the tears worth it.

I really hope you get to that point! I’m not religious so I will not pray for you, but I will keep all of my fingers and toes crossed that you get your miracle baby too. Stay strong! And remember you’re not alone!

[Glasgowghirl]

I do have empathy for Lauren and worry for her, she is young and I can understand her wanting to try again after miscarriage and it probably felt like an eternity for her those months in between miscarrying and getting pregnant with Bella but she didn't give herself enough time to grieve for Asa and that is probably a good explanation for her behaviour. Lauren will have to grow up now and put Bella first and from her actions this pregnancy I am worried that she will struggle, Kendra who seems to be coping well with motherhood expressed that it is still strange to adjust to going from a teen to being a wife and mother. I also worry for Josiah and how he is dealing with all this because I can see Lauren being difficult to live with at times. 

[Nargus]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:01 PM, kmachete14 said:

Someone that young should not be "trying" to get pregnant!!! I mean you just discovered sex and are in the "honeymoon" phase of a relationship. Shouldn't you just be going at it like bunnies and discovering how to orgasm in every which way??? I can't imagine the drudgery of "trying" and tracking ovulation and all that at an age where I was so horny I was basically wet 24/7 and would jump my boyfriend (and vice versa) any time we were alone . . . 

so sad they've already reduced such a fun and bonding activity to an anxiety-ridden means to one end

I don't have an insight into the sex lives of the other fundies but it seems like the other young couples get pregnant "on accident" from just too much lovin -- not because they are TTC !! 

I imagine they aren’t fully trying in that sense, they’re probably just wanting a baby and having sex 4x a week minimum. 

If you’re ‘trying’ you’ll never be ‘shocked’ when you’re pregnant. 

Our second pregnancy was a whoops. Unprotected sex, and when I checked the calendar the next day I said ‘well I guess I’m buying a test in 2 weeks’. 

Our first took 14 months (with 2 early losses in that time) of actively tracking ovulation and basal body temp. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Nargus

[GuineaPigCourtship]

You can be shocked if you've been dealing with infertility issues.  I was shocked to discover I was pregnant after actively trying for over a year.  It didn't stick, though.

Lauren is just, at best, dramatic and at worst an idiot.

Edited November 16, 2019 by GuineaPigCourtship
Additional thought.

[kiwi]

You can be shocked if you've been dealing with infertility issues.  I was shocked to discover I was pregnant after actively trying for over a year.  It didn't stick, though.
Lauren is just, at best, dramatic and at worst an idiot.

I was genuinely shocked to find i was pregnant with our third child, our first two came about after fertility treatments. I was told it wasn’t ever likely that id conceive without treatment. What’s crazier is i was 14 weeks along [emoji51][emoji15]

[Four is Enough]

On 11/14/2019 at 2:12 PM, MoonFace said:

We bought the granddaughter one of those sorting toys - a bucket with a lid that had different shaped holes for the blocks to fit in.   She was about 16 months.   I showed her how to fit the shaped blocks in the holes.  She looked at me and took the cover off the bucket and tossed the blocks in.   Then she smiled at me.  

How I passed the Kobayashi Maru test.... Nurture this child...

[Iamtheway]

56 minutes ago, kiwi said:

I was genuinely shocked to find i was pregnant with our third child, our first two came about after fertility treatments. I was told it wasn’t ever likely that id conceive without treatment. What’s crazier is i was 14 weeks along

 

That happened to a friend of mine too! I think she was even further along and had been told that it was impossible for her to conceive. 

My cousin had definitly been told that. She had twins with ivf and then a surprise third baby less then a year later. 

It’s actually pretty rare to be totally infertile. Which is why people who adopt sometimes get pregnant later. It’s not because they ”relaxed”. Babies are born to starving mothers after gang rapes in war situations. ”Relaxing” has nothing to do with conceiving. 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

That happened to a friend of mine too! I think she was even further along and had been told that it was impossible for her to conceive. 

My cousin had definitly been told that. She had twins with ivf and then a surprise third baby less then a year later. 

It’s actually pretty rare to be totally infertile. Which is why people who adopt sometimes get pregnant later. It’s not because they ”relaxed”. Babies are born to starving mothers after gang rapes in war situations. ”Relaxing” has nothing to do with conceiving. 

This was my cousin’s story too. Tried for 10 years, fertility treatments...twin boys, and one year later...3rd boy.

[viii]

This happened to my friend! Tried for 15 years to have a baby and nothing. Got a new husband and decided to do IVF. Month before they proceeded with that they found out she was 9 weeks pregnant. She started bleeding at week 16 and went on immediate bed rest. She is doing nothing to risk this.  

[Meggo]

2 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

That happened to a friend of mine too! I think she was even further along and had been told that it was impossible for her to conceive. 

My cousin had definitly been told that. She had twins with ivf and then a surprise third baby less then a year later. 

It’s actually pretty rare to be totally infertile. Which is why people who adopt sometimes get pregnant later. It’s not because they ”relaxed”. Babies are born to starving mothers after gang rapes in war situations. ”Relaxing” has nothing to do with conceiving. 

Thank.YOU. Seriously, it just makes people freak out they aren’t relaxing enough on top of everything else

[nausicaa]

On 11/15/2019 at 8:41 AM, theotherelise said:

I know several people who are regularly insensitive and thoughtless. ...Maybe it’s because of her childhood or maybe it’s just who she is. She has compassion and cares for people, especially in a charity situation, but she is really bad sometimes one on one.

Yes. I have a former friend who is very politically liberal and had a mainstream upbringing but is just incredibly immature and lacking in self-reflection.

She once spent an entire two hour car ride bemoaning the "struggles of infertility" because it had been a grand total of two months since she had gone off birth control (ironically, it later turned out she was already pregnant). When I attempted to discuss my dating frustrations after three years of serious effort, she said "You're weird. You're not going to get married until you're forty. You need to get over it" and then went back to complaining about not getting pregnant on her first ovulation cycle with zero self-awareness.

The friendship ended in a pretty painful way for me, and so I probably think about her too much and still wonder how much is nature and how much nurture in her continued inability to think of others or take personal responsibility. Long story short: I think some people may have an innate asshole personality. Circumstances (family, sex appeal, sheltering, charisma) may exacerbate this. 

[viii]

@nausicaa she sounds like a shit friend, sorry you had to go through that. I tried to explain to a therapist one time I was feeling down about being single. She told me God chose for some people to alone and by being sad over it I was arguing against gods plan ?

[lumpentheologie]

4 hours ago, viii said:

@nausicaa she sounds like a shit friend, sorry you had to go through that. I tried to explain to a therapist one time I was feeling down about being single. She told me God chose for some people to alone and by being sad over it I was arguing against gods plan ?

That's terrible.  I hope you got a different therapist after that. 

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, viii said:

@nausicaa she sounds like a shit friend, sorry you had to go through that. I tried to explain to a therapist one time I was feeling down about being single. She told me God chose for some people to alone and by being sad over it I was arguing against gods plan ?

That’s unbelievable. Hopefully you found someone professional. Any chance to report this person to a Medical Council? Because I am pretty sure that’s not exactly ethical or professional behaviour.

[viii]

She was a Christian counsellor, I don’t think she’s legally registered anywhere. I promptly stopped going to her. 

In the same session I talked about my frustrations with my ex boss who was committing fraud and how I wanted to report her. The counsellor told me I was doing it out of a place of anger because the ex boss denied my raise, rather than because it’s illegal. 

She was an idiot. 

[Sullie06]

I too, was surprised by my pregnancies. I was diagnosed with secondary infertility after a 9 week loss (we had gotten pregnant fairly quickly once going off birth control). Tried for 3 years, did 9 IUIs, finally got pregnant with our son. When he was 1 got pregnant "naturally" again but lost that pregnancy at 12 weeks. Fully expected to struggle with secondary infertility again since very similar circumstances but was shocked to get pregnant with our daughter 2 months later. After all that crazyiness, that was enough for me and we decided two children is the right number lol.

[Meggo]

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 9:48 PM, nausicaa said:

Yes. I have a former friend who is very politically liberal and had a mainstream upbringing but is just incredibly immature and lacking in self-reflection.

She once spent an entire two hour car ride bemoaning the "struggles of infertility" because it had been a grand total of two months since she had gone off birth control (ironically, it later turned out she was already pregnant). When I attempted to discuss my dating frustrations after three years of serious effort, she said "You're weird. You're not going to get married until you're forty. You need to get over it" and then went back to complaining about not getting pregnant on her first ovulation cycle with zero self-awareness.

The friendship ended in a pretty painful way for me, and so I probably think about her too much and still wonder how much is nature and how much nurture in her continued inability to think of others or take personal responsibility. Long story short: I think some people may have an innate asshole personality. Circumstances (family, sex appeal, sheltering, charisma) may exacerbate this. 

I had a friend - who I had known since I was 15 - tell me that I just wasn't trying hard enough to get pregnant. After all - she tried for a few months and then went on Clomid and boom - pregnant. I'd been to just my OB at this point - not any of the three specialists I later met with - but to tell me I wasn't trying hard enough? 

I cut her off - I cut her completely out of my life. I didn't explain it to her - I just ghosted her (before ghosting was a thing). I just walked away. I think about her a lot - and wonder if I was too harsh - but she hadn't been the best of friends before that - unreliable, not putting nearly as much into it as I was (which - it's not a transactional thing - but when I drop everything to rush to her side about some heartbreak - you'd think she could at least show up on time to see me off at the airport when I'm leaving for a year. Or show up for my birthday.)

She still doesn't understand what happened - her husband has reached out a few times to tell me she misses me, another mutual friend reached out about. I'm just - I'm just done. I just can't get sucked into that drama. But like you - I still think too much about it.

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, Meggo said:

I had a friend - who I had known since I was 15 - tell me that I just wasn't trying hard enough to get pregnant. After all - she tried for a few months and then went on Clomid and boom - pregnant. I'd been to just my OB at this point - not any of the three specialists I later met with - but to tell me I wasn't trying hard enough? 

I cut her off - I cut her completely out of my life. I didn't explain it to her - I just ghosted her (before ghosting was a thing). I just walked away. I think about her a lot - and wonder if I was too harsh - but she hadn't been the best of friends before that - unreliable, not putting nearly as much into it as I was (which - it's not a transactional thing - but when I drop everything to rush to her side about some heartbreak - you'd think she could at least show up on time to see me off at the airport when I'm leaving for a year. Or show up for my birthday.)

She still doesn't understand what happened - her husband has reached out a few times to tell me she misses me, another mutual friend reached out about. I'm just - I'm just done. I just can't get sucked into that drama. But like you - I still think too much about it.

@Meggo Good for you, you don't owe her anything. I had a friend like this, we didn't have infertility issues, so it was slow motion massacre of my soul before I just stopped. I have no idea WHY I allowed that toxic twat so my head space. We'd been best friends since we were 12, I finally stopped talking to her earlier this year and I'm 49. 

Try not to give her too much thought, these people are soul suckers they feed of the kindness of others to boost their own miserable lives. 

[Glasgowghirl]

59 minutes ago, Meggo said:

I had a friend - who I had known since I was 15 - tell me that I just wasn't trying hard enough to get pregnant. After all - she tried for a few months and then went on Clomid and boom - pregnant. I'd been to just my OB at this point - not any of the three specialists I later met with - but to tell me I wasn't trying hard enough? 

I cut her off - I cut her completely out of my life. I didn't explain it to her - I just ghosted her (before ghosting was a thing). I just walked away. I think about her a lot - and wonder if I was too harsh - but she hadn't been the best of friends before that - unreliable, not putting nearly as much into it as I was (which - it's not a transactional thing - but when I drop everything to rush to her side about some heartbreak - you'd think she could at least show up on time to see me off at the airport when I'm leaving for a year. Or show up for my birthday.)

She still doesn't understand what happened - her husband has reached out a few times to tell me she misses me, another mutual friend reached out about. I'm just - I'm just done. I just can't get sucked into that drama. But like you - I still think too much about it.

 

I almost done the same with my best friend a few years ago after I found out that she had lied about something serious and when I suspected she was lying called me paranoid and then when I discovered the truth she thought that after an apology I'd just move on and be fine. I told her straight then that if she didn't make an effort to make things right and work through it then I would cut her off and eventually we worked through it and remained close. She knows that if she does anything like that again I will cut her off. 

[viii]

50 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I almost done the same with my best friend a few years ago after I found out that she had lied about something serious and when I suspected she was lying called me paranoid and then when I discovered the truth she thought that after an apology I'd just move on and be fine. I told her straight then that if she didn't make an effort to make things right and work through it then I would cut her off and eventually we worked through it and remained close. She knows that if she does anything like that again I will cut her off. 

Lying is such a hard thing to rebound from when it comes to friendships. My best friend lied about a pretty significant thing to me for a full year. We had a huge talk about it, and it's been 14 months since it all came to light, but I STILL have trust issues with her over it. We spent 8 years building a solid friendship, and now it's strained. It's pretty good for the most part, but if I start to dwell on it, I get upset and want to break away from her for a bit. So I try not to think about it because she DID apologize, and I DID say I forgave her. 

Forgiveness is much harder to put into action than words, though. 

It also had to do with her boyfriend, and I think that plays a key part in why I've never particularly warmed to him, because every time I see him - it reminds me of her betrayal. I know the fact that him and I don't get on is a strain to her, but I don't know how to fix it.