Need help with fighting dogs

[PennySycamore]

My daughter got home from work this afternoon to find that her two dogs -two females- had gotten into a vicious fight.  It had been so vicious that one dog had torn a chunk out of one of the other's ears.  She took the injured dog to the vet.  He told her that the only way to really handle the dog fighting (this was not the first time) was to re-home one of the dogs.  They absolutely do not want to do that as both dogs are normally sweet and Lu only joined the family this spring. They could kennel Lu while they are at work, but they'd rather find a better solution.  The dogs were apparently fighting over toys.  HELP!

[apandaaries]

Would it be possible to crate one or both dogs and/or keep them in separate rooms? Do they fight when humans are around, or is it when they’re left alone?

Edited September 20, 2019 by apandaaries
clarity

[keen23]

Crating one and not the other will throw off the power imbalance even more.

[Palimpsest]

@PennySycamore, I am so sorry.  Even little nicks in ears bleed like stink.  I bet your poor daughter came home to a bloodbath.  But the truth is that dog fights do sometimes happen, even among good buddies.

Can you give more information?  How long have these dogs  been living together?  What are the ages and breeds of the dogs?  If they have fought before who started it?  Over what?  And how did daughter break up the fights and how did the dogs relate afterwards?

But I agree with @apandaaries, I would separate in crates, or different rooms, or muzzle* them both (never muzzle only one dog) when they are alone for a while, or even indefinitely.  And consult a reputable doggy behaviorist instead of a vet before re-homing anyone.

Remember, vets, even good ones, are not necessarily animal behaviorists and re-homing sounds like a very radical solution.  And possibly an old-fashioned one.  Old-schoolers recommend against 2 female dogs in the same house.

However, I've had adult female dogs living happily together several times.  We did have one major incident requiring surgery, but that was over a stolen high value treat.  They both got over it.

* We use these when introducing new hounds into the home  The retired racing greys really don't mind them (they are used to them).  And even non-greys are OK with them, especially if you put a little peanut butter in them when first putting them on.   https://www.ngap.org/adjustable-greyhound-muzzle-i35920.html

[Curious]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

My daughter got home from work this afternoon to find that her two dogs -two females- had gotten into a vicious fight.  It had been so vicious that one dog had torn a chunk out of one of the other's ears.  She took the injured dog to the vet.  He told her that the only way to really handle the dog fighting (this was not the first time) was to re-home one of the dogs.  They absolutely do not want to do that as both dogs are normally sweet and Lu only joined the family this spring. They could kennel Lu while they are at work, but they'd rather find a better solution.  The dogs were apparently fighting over toys.  HELP!

Well, that's a vet that doesn't know anything.  I'd be looking for another one unless that one is pretty fucking amazing in every other regard.

If the only fighting is over toys, the obvious solution to try is removing all the toys when they are not home to supervise.

I have to say, though, that once dogs have had a fight, it can be "a thing" from that point forward, particularly with bitches (they take the term seriously). 

Are they both spayed?   What breeds are they?  How old are they?

I can give some hints, but don't have the time to type it up right this instant.   I will have time in a couple hours, though.

One other thing, dogs ears are basically a flap of thin leather and it doesn't take a lot to do damage, so the fight might not have actually been that bad.  They fact they are both still alive leads me to believe it probably wasn't as serious as it probably looks coming home to blood and a ripped up ear.

[PennySycamore]

Thanks for all the wisdom, guys!  You folks are the best!

To answer @Palimpsest's questions:  I don't know how old either dog is although my daughter's boyfriend has owned Angie ever since they've known each other.  Lu just joined the family this spring.  Some friends needed to re-home their dog and so DD and her boyfriend took her in.   I think Angie has some collie in her making (she reminds me of Murray on Mad About You but maybe a little smaller) and Lu looks like a mix of German shepherd and Corgi.  (I think; it's been awhile since I've seen either dog.)  IIRC, the dogs did not get along so well at first, but they seem to have settled into doggie friendship until recently.  My daughter did express to me this other day her fears that she'd not be able to separate the dogs if they got into a fight when her boyfriend was at work.  

I will definitely suggest my daughter crating both dogs or muzzling them both and taking away their toys as well as consulting with a goo animal behaviorist.  

 

[apandaaries]

14 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

 My daughter did express to me this other day her fears that she'd not be able to separate the dogs if they got into a fight when her boyfriend was at work.  

I will definitely suggest my daughter crating both dogs or muzzling them both and taking away their toys as well as consulting with a goo animal behaviorist.  

 

So they do fight with their humans around? That's a bit more concerning.

I'd just separate them in different rooms while at work, but more is beyond my scope. I am a huge fan of squirt bottles for bad behavior, but every dog is different.  Hope your family can find a working solution soon. 

[Curious]

Thanks for more info @PennySycamore  If your daughter is like my husband and HATES crating (even though dogs that are properly crate trained (which ours are because I am in charge while they are puppies) don't find crating to be the torture humans think.   I have long ago given up that battle with my husband so when we had an aggression problem with one particular dog (a fear biting rescue) we employed a system of baby gates and vigilant dog management.  We had like 6 or so dogs at the time so it was sort of a PITA to keep straight who was in what gated area and who could be with who at ALL times, but with just 2 dogs it should be a piece of cake.

To eliminate some of the annoyance of having 4-5 baby gates, we got the kind that stays in place with pressure and have a gate for the human to walk through.  This also let me move around without being trapped in a room since I can't step over a baby gate anymore.   

If they each have a room or section of the house, then they can still have toys in their own areas and no fighting.

That is honestly how I'd handle it and call it a day unless the fighting happens over toys or other resources (including humans) when the humans are also home.

If that is the case, then I'd do more work (possibly with a behaviorist depending on how much rehab each dog needs). 

A couple of quick things that can be tried:

Don't give attention to either dog when you (I'm just using you because I'm too lazy to type your daughter every time) first get home.  Wait until they are both calm and then say hi to each dog.

Don't give attention for behavior you don't want.  Only give the dog attention/petting when it's calmly sitting/laying down.

Make the dogs ask for permission to get up on the furniture or your lap (probably not an issue with bigger dogs as much as my guys).

Institute "Nothing in Life is Free"   if they want food, attention, treats, playing, etc they have to work for it.   There is tons of information online on how to institute a NILIF program and probably explain it better than I would when pressed for time.

Do not use aversives (I'm not anti-squirt bottle which is an aversive, but not on the same level as an ear pinch or a choke chain).

Learn about clicker training (again many great resources online).  Most dogs take to it pretty quickly.  If they are food motivated all the better.  This is also super helpful if you institute NILIF.

Lots of behaviorists and knowledgeable dog people recommend not letting your dog(s) sleep in bed with you.  This is one that I've never been able to do, even the biter got to sleep on the bed as long as he stayed away from me, which he learned pretty quickly.

 

 

(good grief. I started typing this an hour ago and thought I hit send but no..no I did not)

[GreyhoundFan]

I'm sorry it's been tough. I agree with @Curious. One of the first things our adoption group goes over with adopters is NILIF. Denver Dumb Friends League has a series of great articles and handouts about animal behavior. Here is the one about NILIF. 

I would also consider (after consulting with a good vet) trying non-prescription meds, such as Melatonin or Benadryl, to calm them down. Obviously, once they get worked up, meds won't help.

I would definitely keep them separated when unsupervised, either in crates or in separate rooms. If they are not separated, no toys, treats, or even blankets to reduce resource guarding.

Here are some behavior resources (courtesy of DDFL):

American Society of Veterinary Behaviorists: avsab.org

International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants: iaabc.org

Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers: ccpdt.org

If you get a trainer (vs. a true behaviorist), please ensure they do positive reinforcement training. I shudder at the local facility that uses shock collars and prong collars. I actually got in an argument with their director at a local pet event because he said that the best way to train is to "break the dog's will".  It was all I could do not to start hitting him with my cane.

[apandaaries]

27 minutes ago, GreyhoundFan said:

 

If you get a trainer (vs. a true behaviorist), please ensure they do positive reinforcement training. I shudder at the local facility that uses shock collars and prong collars. I actually got in an argument with their director at a local pet event because he said that the best way to train is to "break the dog's will".  It was all I could do not to start hitting him with my cane.

Spoiler

So, not sure what state you’re in, but if it’s CA, I might be able to find a lawyer willing to represent you. For both your sake and that of the doggies.

Hey, if you’ve got a cane and are defending doggos, half a jury is already won. If you don’t already have a grey-haired bun, acquire one. DAs are only going to try cases they hope to win. ? 

ETA: I probably don’t give the best legal advice, and I’m definitely not a lawyer. FWIW. But still. Defend the beloved doggos.

Edited September 21, 2019 by apandaaries

[Coconut Flan]

2 hours ago, GreyhoundFan said:

If you get a trainer (vs. a true behaviorist), please ensure they do positive reinforcement training. I shudder at the local facility that uses shock collars and prong collars. I actually got in an argument with their director at a local pet event because he said that the best way to train is to "break the dog's will".  It was all I could do not to start hitting him with my cane.

Oh my.  We visited people last weekend who used a prong collar on their dog and I struggled to keep quiet the entire visit.  Aside from the dog's size I could see no reason for it.  Dog was a very quiet well behaved dog, but huge.  

Crate training is valuable to do and maintain.  Mom's Dawg had surgery a couple of years ago and had to be in the crate or within a couple of feet of me for over a week due to a post-surgical complication.  I can't imagine having to do that without having him already trained.  I had to crate train him as a 10 year old so old dogs do learn new tricks.  He was anxiety ridden from living with my parents who both had dementia and was destructive when left alone.  It only took a few days and several dog treats.   His anxiety was much lower being in his place when we were gone than having a whole house around him.  

The most aversive thing I do is tell him "no" or turn my back on him.  

I agree with the gate system if their only problem is fighting each other.  If they can't be trusted to not fight, then they have to be protected from each other.  Eventually they may be able to stay together but it won't be horrible if they can only be together when humans are home.

[Curious]

@PennySycamore This is the type of gate we used.  We didn't use this exact one, but it was exactly the same just a different brand.  I think ours were slightly less expensive.  I even had one that fit across the living room entry way which wasn't a door so much as 2 walls with big empty space between them.   It cost us maybe $100-150 to set up the extensive gate system we used.  So not exactly cheap, but not break the bank expensive either.  

https://www.amazon.com/Regalo-39-Inch-6-Inch-Extension-Pressure/dp/B001OC5UMQ/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=baby+gate&qid=1569051420&s=gateway&sr=8-2

Also, regarding crating, some people find the size of the crate to be the main objection.  If your dog(s) are housebroken there is no reason for them to be stuffed into a tiny crate all day.  Our chihuahuas have varying sizes of crates.  One has a wite airline transport crate that is about German Shepherd size (we got it when a dog was turned into rescue).  One is in a crate sufficient for probably a 50-pound dog and the other probably a 30-40 pound dog.  

If they decide to use crates, the dogs should be provided with fresh water during the time they are crated.  Food is not necessary unless they are free fed, I guess.   We just use these bowls for water: https://www.amazon.com/MidWwest-Homes-Pets-Snapy-Stainless/dp/B000MD3NLS/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=coop+cups&qid=1569052073&s=gateway&sr=8-6

I prefer the kind that hook on the crate this way rather than the ones that just hang over the wires.  I got tired of coming home to soaked dogs because they bumped the dish trying to get comfortable or when they were excited that we were home and started bouncing around.