Rejecting the SAHD movement

[MamaJunebug]

“https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/learning-daughter-im-no-longer-kid/“

”gospel,” my eye!

These people present themselves as Christian and bandy the word “gospel” around like advertisers use “new, improved, and value!” 

The Gospel Of Christianity is the good news that Jesus’ life spares us from our sin in being  unable to comply fully with God's Law.

These charlatans?  They add MORE laws and set themselves up as as arbiters of who is and isn’t following them well enough!

Blasted con men in self-made robes of “authority.”  

[Marmion]

17 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

I think it was her choice the same way it is the maxwell kids choice to live at home until marriage. Parents probably used guilt and shame to get what they wanted. 

I think that all of these children were subjected to undue influence  . And of course , guilt and shame are part of emotional control  . 

 

7 hours ago, Sicily said:

She's in deep denial about it. She says her dad was this wonderful loving guy.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/learning-daughter-im-no-longer-kid/

For me, it's not just the beatings either. What's even more abusive imo is that, in the paradigm of child-rearing he promotes, children are forced to erase their whole selfhood and just submit. It's about breaking spirits, not only hurting bodies. It seems like the spirit-breaking is in many ways even worse than the physical abuse.

Once again , as I just posted above , all of this falls under undue influence , such as is used by a high control group , i.e. cult .  What you mentioned , in particular , falls within the BITE model , in these categories .  Under behavior control 

Quote

18. Instill dependency and obedience
19. Encourage and engage in corporal punishment  

And under thought control 

Quote

Change your identity, possibly even your name 

 

[fundiefan]

Jasmine is totally a product of how she was raised. While I am glad to see she's doing a bit of self reflection, she is doing it entirely within the confines of how she was taught. She's not breaking out of anything, she's just shifting it around. And while that's not necessarily a bad thing - she is at least thinking, in as much as she can given the mind fuck she was brought up with - it's not some big transformation. 

I'd like to think of it as baby steps. No one comes out of hell all at once. It's one step forward, two steps back. I wouldn't say she's left the movement or matured in her worldview, she's just moving things around to make it work for now. 

[raspberrymint]

How old is Jasmine?

[Marmion]

2 hours ago, raspberrymint said:

How old is Jasmine?

From this article she wrote , https://cbmw.org/topics/womanhood-blog/see-im-a-grown-up/  , speaking about herself , she posted this .  

Quote

I am only a couple of years older than Miley Cyrus, so I’m still young enough to feel a bit indignant on her behalf when people expect her to still be acting like Hannah Montana. She’s weathered a life of fame, public growing pains, and public heartache enough to be considered as more than the 13 year old pop princess/everyday girl that she portrayed on the Disney channel several years ago. 

So after doing the math , I figure that she's around 28 yes. old . 

[Howl]

Drift! I'm passingly aware of Miley Cyrus, but I did see her sing a torch song on, maybe, SNL and was simply blown away by her sultry smoky voice, like WOW, that was transcendent and totally unexpected. 

Back to  Jasmine.  At least she's 28 and only has one kid (or is it two?), so no militant fecundity. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, Howl said:

Drift! I'm passingly aware of Miley Cyrus, but I did see her sing a torch song on, maybe, SNL and was simply blown away by her sultry smoky voice, like WOW, that was transcendent and totally unexpected. 

Back to  Jasmine.  At least she's 28 and only has one kid (or is it two?), so no militant fecundity. 

She has two now. 

[Petronella]

On 9/18/2019 at 10:24 PM, Marian the Librarian said:

Jasmine Baucham, age 17, always wanted to use her gifts to change the world, and dreamed of being a screenwriter, going to NYU, getting a scholarship, being successful. She is the eldest of the Baucham children. Jasmine and dad Voddie have been studying the roles of dads and daughters, and have reevaluated those ambitions. Voddie says the Bible commands women to be submissive. Eve has the desire for her husband's position; this points out her fallen nature, which is against what God ordained. To foster such ambition in a daughter is to flirt with what brought Eve down, and we must follow the Biblical pattern. Jasmine is now joining the family to fulfill their vision. She has more emotional security, because she is operating from a more Biblical world view. Her gifts and abilities are being developed while serving her father. (Insert more cooking scenes here.) Condoleezza Rice is a hero because she commits and submits herself to George Bush. This is admired, but for Jasmine to do so with her dad calls her into question in the world's eyes.

[snip]

Jasmine: "I love being a research assistant for my daddy." Voddie says in passing that he's interested in learning more about socialism, so she reads the entire Communist Manifesto. Voddie says the work she's doing is equivalent to a master's degree program. Voddie is doing this so Jasmine is fully prepared to be a Proverbs 31 woman when he passes her over to a man.

This is tragic and wasteful and desperately sad.

In many aspects of life, I’ve noticed a tendency to rail against rather than to promote. There’s no need to denigrate education and work in order to promote marriage and motherhood. Why not just promote marriage and motherhood? A normal life is long, and even stay-at-home parents may have been well-educated, and may have careers both before and after (and sometimes alongside) staying at home. Education and work aren’t the opposite of stay-at-home parenting; there can be room for varying combinations.

But enemies are motivating. So instead of encouraging people to see the good in what they want to promote, it’s more galvanizing to make enemies of college and any kind of job at all, even if it doesn’t interfere with parenting. It’s ridiculous and controlling and sad.

I’ve noticed a similar thing with screens (phones, TV, computers). I’m all for ensuring that kids have regular time outdoors, have regular in-person socializing, work with their hands, etc. But I’ve noticed that most articles about that go the “identify an enemy” route instead, naming “screens” as an evil from which kids should be protected, which is bullshit. If your kid needs to have more outdoor time and you need to reduce or cut screen time to create room for that, then fine. But that doesn’t mean the screens were the problem; it was the lack of outdoors that was the problem. It’s just a tradeoff. And if your kids do have enough outdoor/social/creative etc, then using screens as well is just great. But it’s easier to whip up emotion with black/white thinking. (This is a big personal bugbear for me. We’re a well-balanced, creative-screen-use techy family.)

If people would just focus on getting more of the needed good, rather than identifying perfectly reasonable things as inherently bad, the world would be a better place.

Lastly, the bolded Condoleeza Rice aside is absolute WTF. Wow.

ETA: okay, really lastly: If Voddie wanted to know more about socialism, why didn’t HE read the Communist Manifesto??? And, by the way, being Daddy’s personal assistant is NOT the equivalent of a master’s degree. Get a grip.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Petronella

[teachergirl]

I did follow Jasmine on IG but she appears to have dropped off the radar. She does have two now and was working in a private school and the children were in daycare.  She stated at one point she had no plans to homeschool as she felt it could be isolating.  She was also very honest about marriage and the problems they had faced ( they had a fairly quick courtship/engagement).  I consider her both a product and a success story...when you think about being 17, having your dreams and goals taken from you well I always felt sorry for her.  When you compare where she is with the Botkin sisters who have clung so hard to their toxic beliefs I think Jasmine is leaps and bounds ahead.

[Sicily]

On 9/21/2019 at 2:48 AM, Marmion said:

From this article she wrote , https://cbmw.org/topics/womanhood-blog/see-im-a-grown-up/  , speaking about herself , she posted this .  

So after doing the math , I figure that she's around 28 yes. old . 

I am pretty sure I saw her say outright that she is 28.

On 9/20/2019 at 12:43 AM, MamaJunebug said:

“https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/learning-daughter-im-no-longer-kid/“

”gospel,” my eye!

These people present themselves as Christian and bandy the word “gospel” around like advertisers use “new, improved, and value!” 

The Gospel Of Christianity is the good news that Jesus’ life spares us from our sin in being  unable to comply fully with God's Law.

These charlatans?  They add MORE laws and set themselves up as as arbiters of who is and isn’t following them well enough!

Blasted con men in self-made robes of “authority.”  

I'm not a Christian and not religious in any shape or form, but reading about the fact that Jesus considered religious leaders to be vipers has given me a lot of satisfaction, particularly with respect to the fundie pastors.

[Petronella]

13 minutes ago, teachergirl said:

I did follow Jasmine on IG but she appears to have dropped off the radar. She does have two now and was working in a private school and the children were in daycare.  She stated at one point she had no plans to homeschool as she felt it could be isolating.  She was also very honest about marriage and the problems they had faced ( they had a fairly quick courtship/engagement).  I consider her both a product and a success story...when you think about being 17, having your dreams and goals taken from you well I always felt sorry for her.  When you compare where she is with the Botkin sisters who have clung so hard to their toxic beliefs I think Jasmine is leaps and bounds ahead.

I just feel so sad she didn’t get to follow her film-school dreams. I hope she gets some version of it in the future. Not film school, per se, as dreams change, but something ambitious and personally satisfying.

It’s good that she feels able to work and to forego homeschooling, making her own path, but working a job to make ends meet is different from following a passion. I know not everyone gets to have the college experience or is able to study something artsy; she’s not alone in having missed out on that. But it’s frustrating that the reason she missed out is her parents’ controlling ideology. They could have done so much better for her.

[teachergirl]

ETA: I found her website where she says she plans to homeschool but the last update was from 2018 and before she had her second child I believe.  

[Tangy Bee]

Both of Jasmine's parents went to college. I think Voddie has a doctorate. Jasmine said her family were Independents and that her father made "provisions" for their family if anything should happen to him. I could see Voddie being smart enough to do this. I just hope other fundie fathers have a similar plan since they are the most determined to not encourage their daughters to leave home until marriage.

[Four is Enough]

Does Voddie have an ACTUAL doctorate, or is it from one of these preacher mill schools?

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

Does Voddie have an ACTUAL doctorate, or is it from one of these preacher mill schools?

According to his website bio, he has a D.Min., or Doctorate of Ministry, from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

Technically, a D.Min. would be an earned degree, sort of a Ph.D.-lite or glorified Master's degree that allows you to use the honorific of "Dr.". Looks like it's mostly done through distance learning since the program only requires four campus visits over two years:

Quote

Four (3-day) on-campus seminars
Four workshops held during same weeks as the seminars (Orientation, Minister as Person and Professional, Integrative Theology, and Project Design)
Two contextualized learning experiences at home
Ministry Project Report (final year)

As to whether SEBTS or its Dallas counterpart SWBTS are preacher mills, I suppose that depends on one's point of view. The schools are accredited but given what and who comes out of them, the term "preacher mill" may not be incorrect. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by hoipolloi

[HeadshipRegent]

SAHD is, imo, just a prettier name for NEET. 

[mango_fandango]

I know very little about the Bauchams. Out of curiosity, is Voddie short for something?

@HeadshipRegent I’ve long thought of NEET as being a U.K. - specific term but it seems other countries use it too. Here in the U.K. it only applies to those aged 16-24. 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, mango_fandango said:

Out of curiosity, is Voddie short for something?

Don't think so -- guessing it's a family name. He is Voddie Jr and his oldest son, called Trey, is Voddie III.

[Marmion]

4 hours ago, HeadshipRegent said:

SAHD is, imo, just a prettier name for NEET. 

At least stay at home daughters get the appreciation that stay at home sons lack .  

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

If I remember correctly, the 6 (7?) siblings at home are all boys, 12 and under, and were adopted when Jasmine and Trey were teenagers.  This was after Jasmine's mother was diagnosed with her health problems. All of the younger children are in Africa with Voddie as he heads up some school, which seems to be merely a fund raising vehicle.

What I remember most about Voddie and his screeds on child discipline is that children are always subject to physical punishment as long as they live at home, no matter how old they are. 

Think on that -- Jasmine was a candidate for physical punishment until the day she married and left home.

[Marmion]

22 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

What I remember most about Voddie and his screeds on child discipline is that children are always subject to physical punishment as long as they live at home, no matter how old they are. 

Think on that -- Jasmine was a candidate for physical punishment until the day she married and left home

I'm sorry to say that this is not at all uncommon among patriarchal fundamentalists .  They tend to be inclined to think that as long as you're under their roof , you're under their thumb .   Unfortunately , the best that one can do , who is subject to that situation is to fight back with all due force necessary .  Like most any bully , the domineering patriarch is a coward , and will be reluctant to inflict further pain upon you and your siblings , if he realizes that he'll face a counterattack , God , and the Bible be hanged .  Speaking of the Bible , it does state that fathers are not to provoke their children to wrath Colossians 3 :21  , Ephesians 6 : 4  .  But it also states that we are all to , as much as possible , live in peace with all men  .   And though we are to be free in Christ , and not let anyone oppress us  , we also are not to let our liberty become a cause of undue offense  .   So their is a counterbalance in applying the scriptures to one's life .  But if push comes to shove , I believe that it is right to defend oneself from grevious harm , and especially good to protect one's sisters , and little brothers , if one has any , from any excessive use of brute force , at the hands of one's father . For I deem that the chivalrous duty to safeguard women , and children from aggression applies to domestic threats just as well as to outside foes .  Funny enough , when traditional fathers raise up sons to be courageous warriors for God , and justice , as Vision Forum had promoted ,  some may take such admonition to heart , even when it might conflict with paternal headship .  For what it's worth , to whom it may concern , even the Quran agrees with me on this .  https://legacy.quran.com/4/135  

[AliceInFundyland]

So I've known the basics of this dynamic. Not in real time.

I looked at www.jasminebaucham.com

 If I knew nothing else I'd be like, ? what's going on with this woman.

She's branding herself as a young hip Southern Christian mom with a message about acceptance. *yawn* In her late 20s. She is smarter than average.

If going to NYU was once her dream? And now she's in small town Mississippi? I think her self-awareness journey is just starting. She's a try hard.

 

 

[fundiefan]

On 9/22/2019 at 7:09 PM, Marmion said:

At least stay at home daughters get the appreciation that stay at home sons lack .  

That actually is the definition of SAHD. No motivation to do anything, no job, surfing the net. Isn't there a fundie maiden who claims her job is to pin crap on Pinterest? Like, a certain number of pins a day to "help" her followers or something? How many SAHD's actually DO something? There are a few, like even though they're isolated, the Maxwell females at least work for their family who have actual businesses. But, overall, there is no motivation to do much other than create a blog to tell the world how godly you are. 

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

I must point out as someone who was close as it gets to being inside this world without being of it....

They teach sternly and authoritatively and extremely passionately that God speaks directly to the parents (well, let’s be real honest: the father).

Kids are born evil and selfish and horrible and have to have the satan gotten out of them. If they’re “rebellious and stubborn” (aka ask why and/or doubt the validity or question Inconsistencies whatsoever) they are “as witchcraft and idolatry” so #MoreSatanExorcismRequired. 

Those who are meek and quiet are rewarded and praised. To be unquestioning is to be more Godly. Remember, if you speak up or question you are not doing what GOD WANTS YOU TO DO. 

If you do something “bad” you must not just be sorry and ask for forgiveness. You have to “show a spirit of repentance.” For a long time. It takes months to work your way out of being in the doghouse for a minor infraction. One of the WORST sins you can commit is to, at a late stage in your teens or 20’s, attempt a relationship not sanctioned (and likely initiated) in advance by both sets of parents. The girl in particular has zero rights. Even if she gets to say yes or no, her decisions will be largely pressured by what her parents dictate. And they are likely to dictate decisions not based on compatibility or effort but on how well connected in the patriarchy world they find the boys parents to be. (Aka there is a social ladder of Christian worthiness). 

If you get caught thinking for yourself or trying to have an opinion that even remotely looks like questioning “authority” (aka parents/pastors/elders), you’re berated for basically blemishing The name of Christ by claiming him when you’re so obviously immoral and evil and Satans spawn.  

THEY ALWAYS KNOW BETTER. They know  who you are and what you think and what you mean and what you want and what you don’t.... and everyone else, too. They know better what you should do with your time and life, and what you should think and who you should vow to be married to for LIFE..... usually without even knowing the person (well) that they commit you to. 

To think otherwise is to question and belittle GOD HIMSELF. Because remember God and parents (fathers) will always be in the know nd you the kid won’t be. And even after you’re married and become a father, they’ll still think they know better. It never transfers on to the next father in the family line. Just them. Go figure.  

Try living with that not just pounded into your head but probably also your butt for 17-25 years and tell me how many would come it out normal and / or quickly “find normalcy.”

Even some who seemed to get out for a while reverted back again. 

It is twisted and depraved and evil - Gothard and VF creates thousands of sad, lonely, Hurting, screwed up, repressed, oppressed, and demeaned kids. How many came out unscathed? None. How many are creating a new life “after” that is a daily painful uphill battle towards normal?

It is heartbreaking.  it is evil. 

Oh and Jasmine has the most Brains of anyone who came out of any of the fundie worlds but with a worldview that teaches women are only good for cooking and cleaning and birthing, she was doomed. They wanted so badly for their Christian legacy, their arrows, their progeny to be valuable and change the world and then those who could but were born girls were shuffled off to do nothing of value. What a waste. 

[Marmion]

On 11/12/2019 at 6:44 PM, fundiefan said:

That actually is the definition of SAHD. No motivation to do anything, no job, surfing the net. Isn't there a fundie maiden who claims her job is to pin crap on Pinterest? Like, a certain number of pins a day to "help" her followers or something? How many SAHD's actually DO something? There are a few, like even though they're isolated, the Maxwell females at least work for their family who have actual businesses. But, overall, there is no motivation to do much other than create a blog to tell the world how godly you are. 

Yes , but my point was that all the while the people in their social circle are not looking down on them , and passing judgment , the way that they would in regards to the male counterparts  .  It is my impression that if I were still mixed up in Holiness movement fundamentalism , thank goodness I am not , I would be getting dumped on , in a way that my sister is not , given the Conservative Holiness adherence to traditional gender roles .  Thereby , there is an obvious double standard , in respects to the value of career in relation to the value of home life .  

 

2 hours ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

I must point out as someone who was close as it gets to being inside this world without being of it....

They teach sternly and authoritatively and extremely passionately that God speaks directly to the parents (well, let’s be real honest: the father).

Kids are born evil and selfish and horrible and have to have the satan gotten out of them. If they’re “rebellious and stubborn” (aka ask why and/or doubt the validity or question Inconsistencies whatsoever) they are “as witchcraft and idolatry” so #MoreSatanExorcismRequired. 

Those who are meek and quiet are rewarded and praised. To be unquestioning is to be more Godly. Remember, if you speak up or question you are not doing what GOD WANTS YOU TO DO. 

If you do something “bad” you must not just be sorry and ask for forgiveness. You have to “show a spirit of repentance.” For a long time. It takes months to work your way out of being in the doghouse for a minor infraction. One of the WORST sins you can commit is to, at a late stage in your teens or 20’s, attempt a relationship not sanctioned (and likely initiated) in advance by both sets of parents. The girl in particular has zero rights. Even if she gets to say yes or no, her decisions will be largely pressured by what her parents dictate. And they are likely to dictate decisions not based on compatibility or effort but on how well connected in the patriarchy world they find the boys parents to be. (Aka there is a social ladder of Christian worthiness). 

If you get caught thinking for yourself or trying to have an opinion that even remotely looks like questioning “authority” (aka parents/pastors/elders), you’re berated for basically blemishing The name of Christ by claiming him when you’re so obviously immoral and evil and Satans spawn.  

THEY ALWAYS KNOW BETTER. They know  who you are and what you think and what you mean and what you want and what you don’t.... and everyone else, too. They know better what you should do with your time and life, and what you should think and who you should vow to be married to for LIFE..... usually without even knowing the person (well) that they commit you to. 

To think otherwise is to question and belittle GOD HIMSELF. Because remember God and parents (fathers) will always be in the know nd you the kid won’t be. And even after you’re married and become a father, they’ll still think they know better. It never transfers on to the next father in the family line. Just them. Go figure.  

Try living with that not just pounded into your head but probably also your butt for 17-25 years and tell me how many would come it out normal and / or quickly “find normalcy.”

Even some who seemed to get out for a while reverted back again. 

It is twisted and depraved and evil - Gothard and VF creates thousands of sad, lonely, Hurting, screwed up, repressed, oppressed, and demeaned kids. How many came out unscathed? None. How many are creating a new life “after” that is a daily painful uphill battle towards normal?

It is heartbreaking.  it is evil. 

Oh and Jasmine has the most Brains of anyone who came out of any of the fundie worlds but with a worldview that teaches women are only good for cooking and cleaning and birthing, she was doomed. They wanted so badly for their Christian legacy, their arrows, their progeny to be valuable and change the world and then those who could but were born girls were shuffled off to do nothing of value. What a waste. 

I remember attending with my family , for a relatively brief period of time , this Baptist church , which I later found out is IFB , after I looked it up online , although we couldn't have known that at the time .  The thing that stands out in my memory about it was this story the Sunday school teacher told about how unequivocally obedient her daughter was .  See , the daughter had been growing her nails , and was quite fond of how they looked . But when her father told her to cut them , she did so .  So I learned from that example that they do believe that children are to always comply in all things with whatever their father demands of them , no matter how arbitrary .  It is an absolute patriarchy , in which the fathers rule supreme over their households .  As I believe I mentioned elsewhere in this forum , even my one fundamentalist cousin has critiqued it as constituting  " solus pater"  , rather than sola scriptura . https://otrmin.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/solus-pater-rears-its-ugly-head-again/ ,  https://otrmin.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/scott-brown-and-the-danger-of-solus-pater/  ,  https://otrmin.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/tangled-and-the-christian-patriarchy-movement/ , https://otrmin.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/tangled-and-the-christian-patriarchy-movement-ii/ 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Marmion