Prolife extremists: watchful waiting for ectopic pregnancy

[Howl]

Vox has a post out about anti-abortion extremists who believe that watchful waiting is OK for ectopic pregnancy because something, something, something. 

Quote

But now, some abortion opponents are arguing that patients with ectopic pregnancies can simply be monitored until they miscarry — or even that such pregnancies can be carried to term.

“Knowing that a medical condition carries a very small chance of death is scary,” Georgi Boorman wrote at the Federalist on Monday. But, she asked, “is that very small chance enough to prompt you to suffer through purposely destroying your own child?”

It's not a "very small chance of death." Ruptured ectopic pregnancy is the highest cause of death in the first trimester and is an extremely dangerous condition.  Even the professional organization for pro-life ob-gyns 

Quote

does not consider treatment of ectopic pregnancy by standard surgical or medical procedures to be the moral equivalent of elective abortion, or to be the wrongful taking of human life.”

Anyway, read the Vox article here: 

This life-threatening pregnancy complication is the next frontier in the abortion debate     Ectopic pregnancies can be deadly if left untreated. But abortion opponents are telling another story.

and more to the point

Quote

Jen Gunter, MD, tweeted: “If you have never treated a woman with a belly full of blood from an ectopic you should shut the fuck up and sit down and learn before you get someone killed,” Dr. Jen Gunter, an ob-gyn and author of the recent book, The Vagina Bible, wrote on Twitter on Monday. 

This is some deeply, profoundly scary shit and will cost women's lives.   

Edited September 12, 2019 by Howl

[JermajestyDuggar]

TAM’s husband has been arguing this for a long time and he’s a licensed doctor! It’s insane! 

[AmazonGrace]

It's funny how pro life never extends to a pregnant female. Their life isn't worth shit

[smittykins]

I really wanted to give the OP the “angry” reaction, but don’t want it to count against @Howl‘s rep.

[Sonic the Whoredgehog]

I refuse to dignify the stance with the term "pro-life". They're "pro-birth" at best. I can certainly believe that many of these people genuinely think their beliefs are morally right and scientifically accurate, but I also find it very difficult to believe that there isn't a deep-seated root of misogyny in most of them. A teacher at my old SBC church said abortion was evil because it was a woman's attempt to avoid "eve's curse". Oh yeah? What about adam's curse and tractors and plow horses and combines? Oh wait, those are totally fine because women deserve to bear the brunt of the consequences. 

[Hane]

50 minutes ago, smittykins said:

I really wanted to give the OP the “angry” reaction, but don’t want it to count against @Howl‘s rep.

The “angry” reacticon at the very top of the column (looks like an exploding brain) won’t cause an adverse effect on anyone’s rep.

[MamaJunebug]

25 minutes ago, Sonic the Whoredgehog said:

 

I refuse to dignify the stance with the term "pro-life". They're "pro-birth" at best.

 

I’m calling them “forced birthers.”

Can’t take credit for the term but am using it rather than continue to sully the notion of “life.” 

[browngrl]

Fundies need to stop with equating treatment of an ectopic with abortion. There are some scenarios where expectant management may have a role to play* and there are a few exceedingly rare case reports of a live baby from an abdominal ectopic but the management of an ectopic is always done with the mother's health in mind. The embryo (if there is one - most ectopics I see are just an inhomogeneous mass) will not be viable regardless of management.

* cases where expectant management might be appropriate if the woman is medically stable include:

- if the location of the pregnancy is not yet known, in this case the woman's clinical status is carefully monitored and serial hCG levels and ultrasounds are done

- if the ectopic has been treated medically with methotrexate, again there is clinical monitoring and serial hCG's and ultrasounds all done with the goal of ensuring treatment is successful

- if the hCG levels are already dropping at the rate expected following successful treatment with methotrexate and again the woman is closed monitored with serial hCG levels/ultrasounds/clinical assessment

In all these scenarios, management is decided in close collaboration between the woman and her doctor NOT some fundy who hasn't a clue about what is really going on.

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by browngrl
forgot add something

[Howl]

As I noted in my original post, women will die because of this view.  There is already profound ignorance around women's bodies, how birth control works, what a period is, how "women can just shut the whole thing down" to not get pregnant from rape and this is just more pig-ignorant idiocy to add to the existing idiocy under the current idiocracy. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Howl

[meee]

So let me get this straight....

It's better for the mother AND the baby to die in an untreated ectopic pregnancy, than to treat it and save the mother at least?

That's a net loss. By definition, that's anti-life, not pro-life.

[Alisamer]

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

It's funny how pro life never extends to a pregnant female. Their life isn't worth shit

 I agree. I don't understand why these people continue to use the term "pro-life" when they are clearly not, at all.

This might be odd or offensive to some, but I am reminded of what I was told by a professional horticulturist when she was giving me a tour of the botanical garden I had just started working at years ago. We were walking along a bed of flowers, all beautifully growing and well maintained, and all shades of yellow and violet. Except one, very pretty, bright pink petunia. She immediately bent over and pulled that pink one right out. "A flower in the wrong place is a weed." she explained. 

An embryo in the wrong place is not a "baby". It might have had the potential to become one, if it was in the right place. But in the wrong place, it can be a death sentence to the pregnant person.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone could think it was "pro-life" to encourage a very serious risk of death to an already born, grown person with family and a life and dreams, in order to prevent "killing" a clump of cells with practically no chance whatsoever at surviving. It's like cutting off your whole finger to avoid damaging a splinter.

(I am absolutely not saying that an ectopic pregnancy loss shouldn't be grieved or that it isn't a loss, of course. It's the loss of a potential child. But why risk losing the mother along with that non-viable potential?)

[Audrey2]

14 minutes ago, Howl said:

As I noted in my original post, women will die because of this view.  There is already profound ignorance around women's bodies, how birth control works, what a period is, how "women can just shut the whole thing down" to not get pregnant from rape and this is just more pig-ignorant idiocy to add to the existing idiocy under the current idiocracy. 

The sad thing is, those that share this view don't care. They will just mutter something about "God's Will" or say that the woman must have sinned. For them, it's all about the babies (or what we'd call fetuses). They believe women have no place besides incubating babies and keeping house, and no value.

[Jana814]

2 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

It's funny how pro life never extends to a pregnant female. Their life isn't worth shit

I’ve always noticed this & it never made any sense to me. 

[HarryPotterFan]

Recently I read an article stating that in Judaism life begins at birth, so all these christian fundie assholes trying to get restrictive abortion laws in the name of their religious freedom are denying us ours.

2 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

It's funny how pro life never extends to a pregnant female. Their life isn't worth shit

And once the baby is born their life isn’t worth shit either

39 minutes ago, Howl said:

As I noted in my original post, women will die because of this view.  There is already profound ignorance around women's bodies, how birth control works, what a period is, how "women can just shut the whole thing down" to not get pregnant from rape and this is just more pig-ignorant idiocy to add to the existing idiocy under the current idiocracy. 

I remember reading about this guy who said he thought women shouldn’t get sanitary supplies for free in bathrooms or something because they can just hold it in. Like pee.

[AuntCloud]

I promise I’m not one of those posters who have a life experience to bring to any discussion, be it constipated fish or out-of-body experiences. I have posted about my stints at preemie parenting, and have also experienced a ruptured ectopic pregnancy (actually, a heterotopic pregnancy - Cloudlet #1 was in her rightful place in the uterus, her evil twin was in my left tube). My hCG levels were normal because of Cloudlet, which delayed diagnosis. When I finally made it to surgery I was bleeding out rapidly and lost over a litre of blood (32 oz. - 20% of what I started with). I could have died, would have died if not for some incredibly skilled medical professionals and sheer luck. Bottom line is AuntCloud - 1, Cloudlet - 1, evil twin - 0. 

In short, dear Forced Birthers, your fetish may be dead women and broken families, I’d much rather be alive so you’re very welcome to go die in a hole. 

[smittykins]

48 minutes ago, meee said:

So let me get this straight....

It's better for the mother AND the baby to die in an untreated ectopic pregnancy, than to treat it and save the mother at least?

That's a net loss. By definition, that's anti-life, not pro-life.

Well yeah, because then, she’ll spend eternity in heaven, and God will bless her for not ending her baby’s life.

 

[/sarcasm]

Edited September 12, 2019 by smittykins

[Howl]

43 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

I remember reading about this guy who said he thought women shouldn’t get sanitary supplies for free in bathrooms

First how does he know about sanitary supplies in women's bathrooms?  

I think the only place I've seen free tampons are in the bathroom in the REI store.  Increasingly rarely, there are dispensers for tampons and weird condoms, can't remember the costs. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Howl

[meee]

38 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Recently I read an article stating that in Judaism life begins at birth, so all these christian fundie assholes trying to get restrictive abortion laws in the name of their religious freedom are denying us ours.

And once the baby is born their life isn’t worth shit either

I remember reading about this guy who said he thought women shouldn’t get sanitary supplies for free in bathrooms or something because they can just hold it in. Like pee.

Yup, it's true. I'm actually fairly "conservative" but I won't ever vote Republican in American elections and that is one reason why not. 

It's actually more complicated than that: a fetus is some precursor to life and a man has to pay damages, for example, if he hits a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry. (That's in the Talmud somewhere but I don't remember a page number so please don't ask me to quote it.) He does not, however, get tried and punished for murder, because a fetus isn't the same as a person. But also, a fetus who is endangering its mother is considered a "rodef," someone who is "pursuing" the mother, and the same as you have the right to self-defense if you get mugged, you have the right to save your life at the cost of the fetus. 

I REALLY don't know where Christians get their super pro-fetus stance. It's not anything in their "Old Testament" anyway.

[Lgirlrocks]

15 minutes ago, Howl said:

First how does he know about sanitary supplies in women's bathrooms?  

I think the only place I've seen free tampons is the bathroom in the REI store.  Increasingly rarely, there are dispensers for tampons and weird condoms, can't remember the costs. 

I worked for continental tire and they had free tampons and pads in all the women’s restrooms. They weren’t anything fancy but it was nice to have them. One of the community colleges I went to had 10 cent ones in one of the bathrooms. Most of the time they cost up to a dollar. If I could hold it in I wouldn’t have to spend money every time I have a period on tampons and pads. 

[tsukinokawa]

48 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

I remember reading about this guy who said he thought women shouldn’t get sanitary supplies for free in bathrooms or something because they can just hold it in. Like pee.

Someone should tell this man that whenever you have a diarrhea, just hold it. You don't need bathroom, just hold it. Let's see how long he lasts before his pants are filled. 

just like in diarrhea, periods don't wait, they come when they decide to come and there's nothing to do. 

[Walking Cat Bed]

26 minutes ago, Howl said:

First how does he know about sanitary supplies in women's bathrooms?  

I think the only place I've seen free tampons are in the bathroom in the REI store.  Increasingly rarely, there are dispensers for tampons and weird condoms, can't remember the costs. 

I've seen them in schools, but most of the time they're provided by a student group. (Those I've seen accept donations.) Grad School#2 has the Happy Tampers. 

[AmazonGrace]

1 hour ago, HarryPotterFan said:

I remember reading about this guy who said he thought women shouldn’t get sanitary supplies for free in bathrooms or something because they can just hold it in. Like pee.

this : https://www.freejinger.org/topic/28142-women-wouldn’t-need-tampons-if-they-had-any-self-control/

[Marmion]

Even the Roman Catholic Church , which is so anti-abortion that it believes that life begins upon fertilization , authorizes the termination of ectopic pregnancy , as long as the embryo is not directly destroyed .  https://web.archive.org/web/20111123115757/http://www.ncbcenter.org/Page.aspx?pid=940   But I have read of some cases where ectopic pregnancies were successfully carried to full term birth .  https://web.archive.org/web/20110930051227/http://web.ksl.com/dump/news/cc/special/science/ectopic.htm   , https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/443373.stm  , https://web.archive.org/web/20080530105132/http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23782145-2,00.html   This is actually the first I have ever heard of such an issue , eventhough I did study human reproduction , as part of my medical secretary training . 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, HarryPotterFan said:

And once the baby is born their life isn’t worth shit either.

That's the part that's been pissing me off lately. The same forced-birthers who harass women trying to access healthcare don't give a crap about children who have been born. A 7 month old little girl was shot in the face in that mass shooting in Texas, but since she wasn't "pre-born", they couldn't care less. 

[Audrey2]

3 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

this : https://www.freejinger.org/topic/28142-women-wouldn’t-need-tampons-if-they-had-any-self-control/

Hmmm... I can play that game too! Men wouldn't need condoms if they had any self-control and chose not to have sex unless they were very interested in help providing for and raising a child.

Sorry guys! Either keep it in your pants or take matters into your own hands!

Edited September 12, 2019 by Audrey2