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Gun Violence 3: Thoughts and Prayers Continue to be Insufficient


GreyhoundFan

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11 hours ago, Xan said:

Some fool online this morning already floated the idea that we need bulletproof blankets in schools so that children can huddle underneath.  What?  You think a gunman can't yank a blanket off a group of children?  The Republicans who are still talking think that guards at the doors will do the trick.

Some parents waited until late in the night to have their deceased children identified.  High powered weapons can do enormous damage to small bodies.  

I am beyond disgusted with this country.

If that's all you need for security how about they issue them and nothing else to delegates and speakers at the NRA conference?

And then do an active shooter drill so we can all watch Cruz's reaction. Tell us about how it's being "politicised" then, dimwit.

11 hours ago, WiseGirl said:

I don't follow basketball but I'm with him.

"Warriors’ Steve Kerr on Texas school shooting: ‘When are we going to do something?’"

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/warriors/article/Warriors-Steve-Kerr-on-Texas-school-shooting-17196581.php

I heard him on the radio yesterday, and I am with him. 50 people in the way - get them the hell out.

11 hours ago, Becky said:

There are over 400 million guns in this country.  Four. Hundred. Million. Guns.  390 million plus in the hands of civilians.  Even if we ban gun sales outright today, those guns are not going away.  And let's face it, we aren't going to get common-sense gun law in the US any time soon, or ever.    

We also need to address the mental health crisis.  I'm not tarring all mental illness with the same brush,

..

 Yes, gun laws would help and I'd love to see more regulations on that score, let's start with a federal red flag database and mandate, but we have to start thinking of ways to address this other than looking at the guns.

Every other country has mental health issues. Canada, UK, Germany, Australia, Finland, Switzerland, France - there are mental health issues and crises in every country. Here at least individuals with mental health issues are significantly more likely to be victims of crime than to commit a crime, and significantly more likely to be injured/killed when interacting with police while in crisis.

What we don't have is mass shootings at the same frequency.

I agree that there is a lot of work that could be done to address the needs of people including in the mental health space which may contribute to a decrease in violent incidents - my wish list would include universal healthcare including dental and mental health, liveable minimum wage, minimum four weeks paid leave, free education at all levels, housing security (I realise from a US perspective I'm practically a raging communist but I'm pretty much just left of centre here), as well as a lot more push back on violent ideology being promoted by certain outlets.

But from a purely practical "let's try and stop mass shootings" perspective my wish list is 1. Consistent licencing requirements across all states including testing, photo ID, club membership and storage requirements; 2. Buy back of all weapons over a certain level and destruction of those weapons; 3. Registration and insurance required on all firearms owned, with the cost going up proportionally to the level of firearm and able to be mitigated by safe storage, training completed etc; 4. High level penalties for people found in possession of unregistered and/or unregistered firearms. 

Basically get the numbers of guns down to a reasonable level, and the types of guns owned back into something more suitable for a peaceful society rather than Fallujah 2003.

 

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I heard an idea today that I wholeheartedly approve:  Abbott, Patrick, Paxton, Cruz and Cornyn should all be forced to go to the morgue in Uvalde and look at every. single. body. 

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Among all of the other huge holes big enough to drive a truck convoy through in the “now is not the time” bullshit is the simple fact that gun violence, including a rise in mass shooting events, are now happening so regularly that there is no break in order to have the discussion that the 2A nuts really don’t want to have. The reality is that now IS the time and they know it, fear it, and will do anything to delay it until the outrage people feel right now settles down. It is pure evil and if they are allowed to keep getting away with it, they will say the same damn thing the next time a sociopath opens fire in a place targeted because of race, religion, creed, sexual orientation, gender, opportunity, or the worst- a school in order to make the biggest headlines. 

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I haven’t been on FJ in a while but I’ve needed to get this off my chest and this was the only place I felt comfortable doing that. I’m a high school teacher and prior to yesterday I’d already been stressed by parents and admin asking me “what can you do to get this kid the grade they want?” when the kid hadn’t taken the initiative all year except in the end when it doesn’t matter anymore, but after yesterday’s events, I am both so numb/exhausted and so incredibly angry and emotional. My school went into a “lockout” today, which means we can continue as normal in classrooms, but no one is allowed into hallways. The second the PA system came on to announce it, I immediately panicked and then had to hold it together so that my high schoolers taking their final exam didn’t also freak out. Everything turned out to be fine, but I’ve held on to that stress all day. My classroom has floor to ceiling windows on one side that face a courtyard and we literally have no place to hide if a shooter decides to walk through there instead of through the hallways. I know how to wield a gun and have used rifles for animal hunting, but it absolutely should not be my job to protect the 25 children in my room by shooting an attacker. I am not trained law enforcement, nor is any other teacher I work with. We already get trained for dealing with blood borne pathogens, what to do if a kid has a seizure, how to use the AEDs in our room, how to apply a tourniquet if need be, and a host of other things. We do not need shooting training added. I am absolutely disgusted with these pro-gun people saying that guns aren’t the problem. I’m am absolutely disgusted with these “pro-life” jackasses forcing women to have children, but then not giving a single shit about that child at all. These Republicans want to “protect” kids from truly learning about history, race, and LGBT+ issues, but won’t actually protect them when a gunman decides to storm their school and kill them. It’s sickening and I’m so upset with the world we live in. 

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46 minutes ago, JanasTattooParlor said:

I know how to wield a gun and have used rifles for animal hunting, but it absolutely should not be my job to protect the 25 children in my room by shooting an attacker

No. In absolutely no way is that your job.

Also:

 

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We know how much the Republicans love the second amendment. We also recently have been horrified by the memo released saying that Justice Alito feels that he has the votes to overturn Roe v Wade. I know that he is written that he does not feel like it was an appropriate judgment because he is a constitutional originalist and he doesn't feel like the right to privacy is stated in the Constitution.

Since Alitoo is such a constitutionalist I propose that we take the constitutional version of the second amendment. People are allowed to have the types of guns that were around from the second amendment was written. I can go with a shotgun, a muzzleloader, and I'll even give them a rifle. All would be limited to one shot as I don't think that pistols were able to shoot more than one shot without needing to be reloaded (and if I'm wrong correct me on this). In other words we don't need six shooters because they did not exist when the Constitution was written. We do not need automatic or semi-automatics because they were not in existence when the Constitution was written. We do not need multiple shot magazines because I don't believe those were in existence when the Constitution was written.

Since we know they won't make guns harder to come by they should at least stay consistent and use the original views of the second amendment. (I could also argue even more that they would have to belong to a well-regulated militia.)

Edited by Audrey2
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21 minutes ago, Audrey2 said:

Since aledo is such a constitutionalist I propose that we take the constitutional version of the second amendment. People are allowed to have the types of guns that were around from the second amendment was written. I can go with a shotgun, a muzzleloader, and I'll even give them a rifle. All would be limited to one shot as I don't think that pistols were able to shoot more than one shot without needing to be reloaded (and if I'm wrong correct me on this). In other words we don't need six shooters because they did not exist when the Constitution was written. We do not need automatic or semi-automatics because they were not in existence when the Constitution was written. We do not need multiple shot magazines because I don't believe those were in existence when the Constitution was written.

YES! That's a thing I don't understand as an non-American. It seems some people in the US view the constitution as a religious and sacred text. Something perfect that can't be touched!! It was written in the late 18th century! With the realities, technologies and knowledge of that time. It's been more than 200 years. It's highly possible that some things in this document do not fit with the realities of today. Why is that such a problem? No country or society is frozen in time. For goodness' sake, France is now at its fifth republican constitution. The country has changed and evolved with the different concerns of the times. Some people in France are now even talking of a possible 6th republic, because of the failings in the present political system. It's okay to want to better your country.

Why would it be a problem to take a look at the 2nd amendment? I doubt the fathers of the constitution would be happy about children being gunned down at school, and I'm sure it wasn't their intend when drafting it.

So what is the problem here? Oh yeah, a bunch of old white men who would be pissed if someone somewhere told them they can't have something. 🙄

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I have no words to convey how much I despise newt:

 

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Another on my list of politicians I despise:

 

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I am so sick of the mental illness argument. First, if you think it's mental illness related, FUND ACCESS TO MENTAL HEALTH CARE. The sheer fact that no one with that argument is pushing for that solution means that that's just a convenient excuse. Second, there are a lot of people with diagnosed mental illness in this country; how many of them are out killing children? Third, that does nothing to explain the shootings motivated by hate, like the one in Buffalo just days ago. 

And frankly, the motive and mental health of anyone would be less likely to matter if it weren't so ungodly easy in this country to kill people.

I've fired guns. I grew up around guns. I am the first to admit that people own guns for hobbies, hunting, and collecting, instead if solely for killing people. But this level of access cannot continue.

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My oldest daughter is the same age as those beautiful children.  I’m absolutely sick thinking about it, and overwhelmingly grateful to live in Canada.  But mostly I am filled with a seething rage that this happened and continues to happen because people love their guns more than each other.  Those poor babies and their families.  

Edited by treehugger
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On 5/25/2022 at 5:29 AM, Ozlsn said:

Sounds like a great idea - and so good for fires!

Well that's a lost cause.

And part of me would really like to see a disaffected white male turn up so they can all get a feel for what their school kids go through.

Oh, but you know what? Guns are NOT ALLOWED at the NRA convention. They'll be checking. None. (It's the Secret Service, but oh the irony...).

On 5/25/2022 at 8:42 AM, Becky said:

Yes, gun laws would help and I'd love to see more regulations on that score, let's start with a federal red flag database and mandate, but we have to start thinking of ways to address this other than looking at the guns.

I agree that mental health care needs to be a priority, but gun control must be a major priority as well - probably the first priority. This article explains what happened when Australia banned automatic and semi-automatic weapons, and had a mandatory buyback of those weapons.

But this part is very important:

Quote

The average firearm suicide rate in Australia in the seven years after the bill declined by 57 percent compared with the seven years prior. The average firearm homicide rate went down by about 42 percent.

Gun control will help with mental health care. It will help prevent suicide.

Suicide is often a spur-of-the-moment decision. People often regret it. You hear often of survivors who attempted suicide by jumping off bridges and such say that the instant they jumped, they regretted it. If you have second thoughts after taking pills, you might be able to call help. If you have second thoughts attempting suicide many ways, you might be able to save yourself, get help, or you might simply survive. With a gun? What's done is done, instantly. You are much less likely to survive a suicide attempt via gun, and if you do you are more likely to have severe lifelong injuries.

No one needs guns that can kill multiple people in a matter of seconds. 

On 5/25/2022 at 11:03 AM, SassyPants said:

I am sick to death of the “there’s just too many guns and it would be too hard to place restrictions” mantra. Guess what, it’s your job congress people to figure this out. Stop making decisions based on how much money the gun industry, lobby, NRA are willing to line your pockets with.

TX is filled with guns. How come none of those good guys with guns so often referenced, didnt prevent this terrorism?

Agreed. We even have a blueprint to follow. The US is literally the only place these sorts of shootings happen on a regular basis. We can look at other countries and learn from them. Take a look at this list. Just look. There is a shooting in the US injuring or killing 4 or more people almost every single day. Sometimes multiple ones in a day. It's so common that only the ones with large body counts or that involve children get much press.

19 hours ago, Audrey2 said:

I am so sick of this I just can't anymore. I'm sick of the Republicans obsessing over controlling women's bodies with the abortion issue but keeping completely silent on what is behind school shootings. My Republican impression of school shootings is thoughts blah blah blah prayers blah blah blah mental illness blah blah blah illegal immigration blah blah blah don't take our guns away!

With the Republican obsession over abortion I'm about ready to start using that Republicans want to abort you using guns after you're born as a talking point.

Exactly. They can take away women's rights to control their own bodies, but guns? Nah. That's a step too far.

They can tell teachers what to teach. They can force women to carry pregnancies. They are working on eliminating any right to privacy, and sliding toward banning the most effective types of birth control. But the right to buy a huge arsenal of automatic weapons? That's far too much of an intrusion on "personal rights".

14 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

I agree that there is a lot of work that could be done to address the needs of people including in the mental health space which may contribute to a decrease in violent incidents - my wish list would include universal healthcare including dental and mental health, liveable minimum wage, minimum four weeks paid leave, free education at all levels, housing security (I realise from a US perspective I'm practically a raging communist but I'm pretty much just left of centre here), as well as a lot more push back on violent ideology being promoted by certain outlets.

But from a purely practical "let's try and stop mass shootings" perspective my wish list is 1. Consistent licencing requirements across all states including testing, photo ID, club membership and storage requirements; 2. Buy back of all weapons over a certain level and destruction of those weapons; 3. Registration and insurance required on all firearms owned, with the cost going up proportionally to the level of firearm and able to be mitigated by safe storage, training completed etc; 4. High level penalties for people found in possession of unregistered and/or unregistered firearms. 

Basically get the numbers of guns down to a reasonable level, and the types of guns owned back into something more suitable for a peaceful society rather than Fallujah 2003.

 

I 100% agree with you. You have to be a certain age and have training and regularly pass a licensing exam to drive a vehicle. You have to have insurance on that vehicle. Why? Because vehicles can be dangerous. Why on earth would the same rules not apply to guns? Vehicles at least have a legitimate purpose and are useful. Guns, except for ones made for hunting, do not. Automatic and semi-automatic weapons are designed for one purpose - to kill people.

Hell, you have to have a license to even HUNT in most areas, except on your own land. You have to be licensed to go shoot at animals, and are restricted as to when you can hunt certain species, but shooting at people? Free for all. This is ridiculous.

And anyone who claims they need an automatic or semi-automatic weapon for hunting is a shitty hunter and needs to find another hobby.

 

13 hours ago, AlmostSavedAtTacoBell said:

Among all of the other huge holes big enough to drive a truck convoy through in the “now is not the time” bullshit is the simple fact that gun violence, including a rise in mass shooting events, are now happening so regularly that there is no break in order to have the discussion that the 2A nuts really don’t want to have. The reality is that now IS the time and they know it, fear it, and will do anything to delay it until the outrage people feel right now settles down. It is pure evil and if they are allowed to keep getting away with it, they will say the same damn thing the next time a sociopath opens fire in a place targeted because of race, religion, creed, sexual orientation, gender, opportunity, or the worst- a school in order to make the biggest headlines. 

See the link I posted above - it will never be the time, according to their logic, because there is a shooting in the US almost every single day. Injuring or killing 4 or more people. Every. Day. Now is the right time. 20 years ago was the right time.

13 hours ago, GreyhoundFan said:

image.png.aba3192d0ced94b269ac9e85b7e3e0d3.png

This is literally 100% where they are headed. Some Republican politicians have come out and said so, though not in so many words. They'll aim at public schools first, of course, because using government money to educate children doesn't do much to line their own pockets. But they really do want people to be on their own. You're forced to have the kid, but there's no help to feed, clothe, or educate that kid. The less educated the voting public is, the better Republicans like it. The poorer and hungrier people are, the more the rich people can get away with, because you don't have time or energy to call out corruption when you are just barely scraping by. The less education people have, the fewer questions they ask and the less critical they are - they are more likely to accept what they are told. 

So yeah, I haven't seem them use school shootings as a "public schools are problematic" talking point yet, like they have with teaching basic facts and things like science, but I could see it happening. 

Nobody on either side of the aisle is getting anything done, but the Republicans are the ones who won't even consider any laws regarding guns, and who are actively obstructing gun laws while simultaneously making guns easier to get and carry. 

Republicans - Money, Guns, and Fetuses. Those are their goals, those are the things they care about. Already born people? Actual children? Eh. Tell them to hide under their school desk and hope the shooter doesn't see them, I guess. There's a zygote somewhere that needs saving. 

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I am not caught up on reading the other posts yet because I am too angry so I apologize if I am repeating what someone else already posted but- it has been confirmed that police stood outside the school for 40 minutes while parents begged them to go in or allow parents who were volunteering to go, all while the murderer was inside with those poor children.  The reason given was that the police were waiting for tactical backup.  According to one child who survived by hiding under a table with a tablecloth (along with four other children), when the police came in they told the students to yell for help so they could be found.  One little girl did and was promptly shot by the murderer.  I cannot imagine the absolute agony and anger those parents endured knowing a killer was inside the school with their children while law enforcement stood outside and refused to go in until backup with bigger, badder weapons and more protective gear appeared.  I state with no hyperbole that the actions of the law enforcement yesterday clearly obliterates the whole "good guys with guns" rhetoric.  There were literally multiple law enforcement officers present at the scene with weapons who did not go inside to rescue the children.  Why?  Because the killer was armed with his own weapons that were so deadly that the police waited for tactical teams to come.  Those actions clearly emphasize the point that some weapons simply should not be available to the general public.  If an single person, an 18 year old no less, poses such a threat to multiple police officers that they won't move into a school to rescue 2nd to 4th graders until tactical teams arrive then there is unrefutable evidence that weapons of such lethality should not be accessible to anyone.  

Fuck the NRA.  Fuck the 2A gun nuts.  Fuck the "mah freedumbs" crowd.  And yeah, fuck all the police who refused to go into that school, even those who were complying with orders.  Dr. John Cheng rushed the shooter at the church in Laguna Beach, California last weekend and died saving lives.  His actions gave others time to act.  He was unarmed and certainly didn't have the bullet proof vests that the police in Texas likely were wearing.  Aaron Salter Jr. died trying to stop the killer in Buffalo last weekend.  He was armed but he things just didn't align for him to be able to disable the killer before he himself was killed.  We hear story after story of students and teachers and others who risk and sometimes lose their lives while saving others.  Every one of those officers has the blood of 19 children and 2 teachers on their hands.  

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So Walker must be emulating his orange lord and master by uttering "the best words": /s

 

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#ArmMeWith is the teacher movement for resources and counselors not have us carry guns.

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3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

And anyone who claims they need an automatic or semi-automatic weapon for hunting is a shitty hunter and needs to find another hobby.

About the only hunting I can see "needing" a semi-auto for are wild pigs down South. So, okay, your farm has a problem with wild pigs? Okay, you can have one, but here's the application for the extra license and insurance first. Otherwise, you can just spend more time practicing at the range to be a better shot!

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This is a good op-ed from the WaPo: "You. This is your fault."

Quote

On Tuesday, a gunman targeted a fourth-grade classroom at an elementary school in Uvalde, Tex., killing 21 people, 19 of them children. On May 14, a gunman shot and killed 10 people at a supermarket in Buffalo. On April 12, a gunman shot 10 people in a Brooklyn, N.Y. subway station. We’re 145 days into the year and there have already been 213 mass shootings in the United States.

Wrong. The problem is you.

Way back in 2008, then-Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) was castigated for saying that some Americans “cling to guns,” and for suggesting that this was unreasonable or unhealthy. The evidence — which is to say the pileup of bodies year after year — suggests he was correct.

But other politicians, seeing the backlash, learned what not to say. They learned not to point fingers, because they knew that they, too, would be accused of hating freedom, loving tyranny, overreaching in pursuit of control. They understood that they would be shouted down and then perhaps voted out.

They learned not to say the obvious: These mass shootings aren’t acts of God. The status quo is bad. Our lack of action on guns is killing people, and someone is to blame.

But who?

You. It’s your fault.

You, the gun-obsessed minority who lord over our politics and prevent change from being made. You, who mumble “thoughts and prayers” but balk at action.

You, the constitutional absolutist who believes that “the right to bear arms” — written in the late 1700s, when a state-of-the-art weapon was the flintlock musket — should be expanded to include modern-day, high-capacity automatic rifles, at the cost of children’s lives.

Opinion: I just want to know: How can I protect my 6-year-old daughter?

You, the “shooting hobbyist” or “gun enthusiast” who advocates against gun control because you think anything that makes your weekend amusement even the slightest bit more difficult to participate in is not to be borne.

You, the performative patriot who believes that background checks, age limitations, training requirements — any reasonable regulations that could help keep people safe — are insufferable limitations on your freedom.

You, the sophist who says “guns don’t kill people, people kill people,” as if those people aren’t killing others using guns, as if it isn’t obvious that the havoc they wreak would be much reduced had they not been given easy access to weapons of mass murder.

You, the pundit who sneers that your opponents “don’t want a solution” and then refuses to provide your own, preferring to use a tragedy to build your brand.

You, who would rather forget about the children murdered and the families broken, because if we thought about them too much you’d feel bad and might have to give something up.

Lest I be accused of being one-sided, let’s not stop the finger-pointing there. If it’s a “you” problem, it’s an “us” problem, too — the United States and its culture writ large, right and left included.

A country that defines itself by its freedom — and has, over decades, fetishized a misguided ideal of “liberty” that values the individual over everyone and everything else.

A country that touts its dynamism yet dithers, its leaders wringing their hands and offering empty platitudes — “we have to find solutions,” “we must take action” — as if the solutions aren’t obvious, as if the actions one could take haven’t been modeled for us by other countries for decades.

A country that exports democracy but whose politicians pretend that their jobs are meaningless, who believe that when it comes to gun control, “legislation doesn’t work” — despite the fact that they were elected to write it.

It’s easy to find excuses for why this keeps happening. We’ve done it for decades. But the comforting fictions have worn thin, to the point of transparency.

It’s time to stop feigning helplessness. To stop pretending we are the ones under attack. To stop gaslighting the real victims, who have already suffered tragedy enough.

It’s time to admit that we — we Americans, and the rationalizations we tolerate — are to blame. Only then can we shoulder the responsibility to act.

 

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3 hours ago, WiseGirl said:

Husband of Texas Teacher Killed Protecting Her Students Dies 2 Days Later: 'Broken Heart'

Literally true.  There is no bottom to the sadness. 

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8 hours ago, AlmostSavedAtTacoBell said:

it has been confirmed that police stood outside the school for 40 minutes while parents begged them to go in or allow parents who were volunteering to go, a

I just can't get over this. 

8 hours ago, AlmostSavedAtTacoBell said:

Those actions clearly emphasize the point that some weapons simply should not be available to the general public.  If an single person, an 18 year old no less, poses such a threat to multiple police officers that they won't move into a school to rescue 2nd to 4th graders until tactical teams arrive then there is unrefutable evidence that weapons of such lethality should not be accessible to anyone. 

Yes, this. If you need a SWAT team because it's too dangerous for regular police to enter, then you need to look at accessibility of weapons. Frankly it always surprises me that police unions aren't front and centre demanding regulation as an OH&S issue for their members. 

Thread in spoiler from resident there, and I don't know what to say.

Spoiler

 

 

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His poll numbers must have taken a hit after the media heard about this:

So, now he's not going to appear at the NRA meeting in person:

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott to skip NRA convention, return to Uvalde instead

Quote

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott will skip Friday's National Rifle Association convention and instead make a return trip to Uvalde, the rural town devastated by an elementary school shooting earlier this week, his office said Thursday evening.

Abbott, who is seeking re-election in November, will record video remarks that will be shown at the NRA event in Houston, a spokesman for the governor told NBC News. He was initially scheduled to speak in person.

In Uvalde, Abbott is slated to hold a news conference after meeting with state and local officials, as well as town residents.

The last-minute change of plans comes as Republican politicians slated to speak in Houston have come under pressure to forgo the NRA event, which is being held just three days after 19 students and two teachers were gunned down in Uvalde.

Sen. John Cornyn and Rep. Dan Crenshaw, two other high-profile Texas Republicans who were previously slated to attend the event, have also backed out, citing scheduling conflicts they said were unrelated to Tuesday’s shooting at Robb Elementary School, about 270 miles from Houston.

Speakers who remain on the list for the event include former President Donald Trump, South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem and Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas.

Trump said in a statement Wednesday that he would keep his "longtime commitment to speak in Texas at the NRA Convention and deliver an important address to America."

 

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