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Gun Violence 3: Thoughts and Prayers Continue to be Insufficient


GreyhoundFan
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9 minutes ago, Becky said:

There is an article on NPR discussing this. While the maturity of an 18-yr-old male could be debatable,  calling him a “kid” or a “child” indirectly could provoke or display sympathy or leniency. I know you don’t think that way, but I think it is correct to refer to him as a man. He will face adult consequences, as he should. 

I agree. He's 18, so legally he is an adult. 

An adult who can drive, work, join the military, buy cigarettes, buy guns, vote, etc... but not yet drink alcohol legally. Or rent a car, most places. Can buy one, but not rent one. Things are weird.

Is he a mature adult? Absolutely not. The brain is still developing until, what, 25 or so? But I don't think he needs to get a break from consequences for that reason. Ideally, IMO, he'd get therapy and deprogramming and such while incarcerated. But, since he's likely never going to get out of prison, I doubt they'll offer that - or even be ABLE to offer that. 

I'm pretty surprised he didn't off himself instead of letting the police arrest him. Chances are he's not going to have an easy time in prison. 

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for him, after what he has done, especially considering he's likely to get lauded in various vile online communities. I hope that he doesn't inspire any others to go out and start shooting. 

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47 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I agree. He's 18, so legally he is an adult. 

An adult who can drive, work, join the military, buy cigarettes, buy guns, vote, etc... but not yet drink alcohol legally. Or rent a car, most places. Can buy one, but not rent one. Things are weird.

Is he a mature adult? Absolutely not. The brain is still developing until, what, 25 or so? But I don't think he needs to get a break from consequences for that reason. Ideally, IMO, he'd get therapy and deprogramming and such while incarcerated. But, since he's likely never going to get out of prison, I doubt they'll offer that - or even be ABLE to offer that. 

I'm pretty surprised he didn't off himself instead of letting the police arrest him. Chances are he's not going to have an easy time in prison. 

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for him, after what he has done, especially considering he's likely to get lauded in various vile online communities. I hope that he doesn't inspire any others to go out and start shooting. 

Let me be clear. He absolutely is accountable for his actions, and he deserves to have justice meted out to him to the fullest extent of the law.

But my point is not about his accountability or even about justice. It's not about him being a legal adult or not. 

It's about his young age, and how thoroughly filled with hate and rage he is at a mere 18. He is, as you said, far from fully mature. And yet he was indoctrinated so completely that he went on a mudering rampage-- and legally had aquired the means to be able to do it. That is what makes it worse, for me.

 

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The media has a nasty tendency to refer to males of color who kill (whether with murderous intent or in self defense) as adults (i.e., "man") but white males who are under 20 as "teenager".  It's a way of playing up the conduct of POC (even when it is self-defense) while playing down the conduct of a white person who engages in the same actions.  I am glad to see some media outlets taking care to refer to him as "man" rather than "child" or "teenager".  I also noticed that some media outlets including the news podcast I stream in the morning are choosing not to use his name but instead are referring to him as "the shooter" or "the killer".  They are taking care to use the names of the victims and witnesses (who are, of course, victims as well) while refraining from using his name.  I hope to see more of that kind of treatment of these cases in the future.  The killers want the notoriety.  Take it away from them and name the people we should recognize- the people who were the innocents in the situations.  The podcast treated the California church shooting in the same manner.  The doctor who was shot and killed trying to run toward the shooter to stop him was named, as was the pastor and the others who were able to subdue the killer.  The killer was discussed without his name being said.  

I really want someone to tell those two their names will be forgotten soon enough while they waste away in prison.  Very few of the mass murderers get remembered long-term.  The general public may recall the killings but the names of the perpetrators are rarely something most people can conjure up when asked.  That shitstain in New York will, for all but the people directly affected by the shooting or involved in the case, be "the Buffalo store shooter", thrown on the list of other mass murderers like "the Waffle House shooter" and "the Batman movie shooter".  He'll be reduced to a reference.  

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2 hours ago, AlmostSavedAtTacoBell said:

The media has a nasty tendency to refer to males of color who kill (whether with murderous intent or in self defense) as adults (i.e., "man") but white males who are under 20 as "teenager".  It's a way of playing up the conduct of POC (even when it is self-defense) while playing down the conduct of a white person who engages in the same actions.

I have noticed this, too, and it's fascinating - since one of the most common methods of casual disrespect toward men of color in the not too distant past was to call them "boy". Now it's common in news broadcasts to make men of color seem more dangerous by referring to them as "men" even when they are teens. Same sort if disrespect coming from opposite use of terms.

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7 hours ago, fraurosena said:

It's about his young age, and how thoroughly filled with hate and rage he is at a mere 18. He is, as you said, far from fully mature. And yet he was indoctrinated so completely that he went on a mudering rampage-- and legally had aquired the means to be able to do it. That is what makes it worse, for me.

I still can't get over him being able to legally acquire those firearms but not buy a beer. (Not that I am in favour of him doing both simultaneously, just to make that clear.) Seriously though he'd be a lot less of a risk to the community buying a slab and having no access to firearms than the other way around.

7 hours ago, fraurosena said:

Let me be clear. He absolutely is accountable for his actions, and he deserves to have justice meted out to him to the fullest extent of the law.

Agreed. But I wish that they would also go after the people doing the indoctrinating. This didn't come out of a vacuum, and like the ISIS converts, and the abortion clinic murders there's a host of people making money out of spinning a narrative just close enough to the line to be able to step back in mock horror and say "oh but we didn't intend for anyone to do that." Bullshit, and maybe start prosecuting them for manslaughter then if it was "unintentional" - and going after the platforms that host them. 

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Okay I’m going to throw this out here because I want to know how people feel about this. 
 

A woman I am friends with on FB spoke out against people (mainly liberals) making the murders in Buffalo about guns and not the killing of Black people. That whites don’t see this is about hate crimes and not about guns. 
 

I admit this never occurred to my middle aged white lady self. However I can see what she is saying. 
 

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10 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Okay I’m going to throw this out here because I want to know how people feel about this. 
 

A woman I am friends with on FB spoke out against people (mainly liberals) making the murders in Buffalo about guns and not the killing of Black people. That whites don’t see this is about hate crimes and not about guns. 
 

I admit this never occurred to my middle aged white lady self. However I can see what she is saying. 
 

My feeling is that it's mostly about racism and secondarily about guns.  I'm stunned that he was able to get the sort of gun that he had.  My overriding feeling is just blind anger that someone would drive for hours just to kill people because of their race.  If I were a person of color, I would be terrified of being in any public place right now.  It's just not safe.

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2 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

A woman I am friends with on FB spoke out against people (mainly liberals) making the murders in Buffalo about guns and not the killing of Black people. That whites don’t see this is about hate crimes and not about guns. 

Why can‘t it be about both? He decided to kill out of racist hate and he was able to because of easy access to guns. 

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10 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Okay I’m going to throw this out here because I want to know how people feel about this. 
 

A woman I am friends with on FB spoke out against people (mainly liberals) making the murders in Buffalo about guns and not the killing of Black people. That whites don’t see this is about hate crimes and not about guns. 
 

I admit this never occurred to my middle aged white lady self. However I can see what she is saying. 
 

Also, the party stoking fears of “replacement” of the white majority is also the party ensuring easy access to guns, including semi-automatics. It is a perfect setup for mass killing. 

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21 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Okay I’m going to throw this out here because I want to know how people feel about this. 
 

A woman I am friends with on FB spoke out against people (mainly liberals) making the murders in Buffalo about guns and not the killing of Black people. That whites don’t see this is about hate crimes and not about guns. 
 

I admit this never occurred to my middle aged white lady self. However I can see what she is saying. 
 

For me it is about both - this particular terrorist act involved high powered firearms, and restricting access to those would have prevented or at least made it harder to commit in that way. The underlying racism, white supremacy, replacement theory etc. poison are what led directly to this act - and even with gun control that won't stop terrorist acts for that ideology being committed (bombs anyone?) unless it is addressed - and, I think, until prosecutors get serious about holding people to account for incitement, people start successfully suing Fox/other media platforms and individual commentators etc., platforms make it as hard as possible to spread and recruit for this ideology. (Or, I suppose, until police start shooting white people holding a weapon at the same rate they seem to manage to shoot unarmed people of colour. That might give some people pause.)

I understand where the person on FB is coming from, and I certainly don't want to downplay the murder of innocent people minding their own business and going about their lives when I'm talking about regulation of high powered weapons. I do want to make it both as hard as possible for those propagating and recruiting to this ideology, and as hard as possible for atrocities to be committed.

Some of this for me comes from the Christchurch mosque murders - the Australian murderer didn't go to NZ because there were more mosques or more Muslims, he chose to commit murder there because he could get access to the guns he wanted more easily. So for me it is necessary to talk about both - how do we stop the recruiting and ideology spreading and encouraging people to go out and commit terrorist acts, and how do we make it as hard as possible for those who want to do it. And also why is it that these ideologies exist, and how do we protect people within our community who are targeted.

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