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Woman forced to give birth in dirty jail cell and without assistance


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1 hour ago, Longhairedheathen said:

I hate these arguments because I fall on both sides.  In these case that jail  and the people needs to be held accountable. 

Having worked in a jail, mental health facility and hospital I think addiction chips away at people's humanity and drives they to do things they wouldn't normally do.  

No argument from me there.

However, there are considerable arguments for reforms in both prisons and county jails over the treatment of women, especially pregnant women. Ms. Sanchez is not alone.  There have been many examples of similar treatment.

County jails can be far worse than prisons.  And it is worth remembering that county jail is where people (who can't afford bail) are held while awaiting trial.  Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.  They are also where people serve short sentences of under 12 months.  In other words, "minor" nonviolent and white collar crimes.  Not that people who are accused of or are serving long sentences for major felonies "deserve" this sort of inhumane treatment.

The number of women incarcerated in the USA has increased exponentially in the last 10 - 15 years.  So has the number of pregnant women awaiting trial or serving their sentences.  Their basic needs and those of their babies are not being met.  It is not just being forced to deliver alone in a jail cell.  It is also being denied proper medical care during pregnancy, being denied proper nutrition, and being deliberately humiliated and mistreated by (some) prison staff.

And it is a scandal.  

Also remember that women of color, women with chronic health conditions, including mental illness and addiction, mentally disabled women, and low income women are disproportionately represented in the prison population. 

Some states have better standards than others in dealing with pregnant inmates and their babies.  Some have even made it illegal for women to be shackled during delivery.  But there are no mandatory standards of care for pregnant women in prison in the USA.

Advocacy group working out of Johns Hopkins:  https://www.arrwip.org/

Survey:   https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2019.305006

And, yes, I'm ignoring the trolling.  I'd like to get back to the serious topic.

 

Edited by Palimpsest
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41 minutes ago, Curious said:
3 hours ago, Jody said:

(as I’ve said countless times that the staff should have intervened) 

The staff of FJ does not intervene unless rules have been broken.  No rules have been broken.    Just because you want something to be a rule doesn't mean it magically becomes one. @Destiny addressed this after your explination of the serial killer comment.

FJ does not hold the hands of its members.  You are expected, as an adult, to be able to deal with interpersonal disagreements on your own.   If I rule is broken or in some cases the line to being broken is being trod upon action is taken.

Until that happens no one is going to intervene because you are too dim to understand that you can make a statement and then fully negate that statement with your follow up.

Quoting myself here.  As I was rereading my post as I go through the thread I realized Jody may have been referring to her statement about the jail staff intervening and not about FJ staff intervening.

I'm still not sure based on what she wrote, but if I took it to mean the latter and it was supposed to be the former, then I apologize for misunderstanding what was meant.   What I said, still holds true, but I wouldn't have said it had I thought she was talking about the jail staff.

 

21 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I don’t know, C. I feel rather strongly that if someone is going to insult the intelligence of others they better be on it! 

That's a fair point.  I guess I make so many typos, even with proofreading that I tend to cut people slack when it comes to something like that.

Unless you are Kendal and say your grandpa took a riffle to school.  Then I will make fun of your ass every chance I get ;) 

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6 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

But there are no mandatory standards of care for pregnant women in prison in the USA.

That is absolutely heartbreaking. 

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3 hours ago, Jody said:

Generally everyone 99,99% start taking drugs as a choice. Very few people are chained to chairs, fed or injected opioids and are then released on the streets. People have choices and can make different choices than this woman did. 

I’m gathering from the conversation that you may not live in the US, so you may not be aware of the huge problem we have with opioids.  People don’t need to be strapped in chairs, but there is that invisible chain of addiction. 

Story time.  I had my first baby about 9 years ago.  Uncomplicated vaginal delivery. Very little “collateral damage”.  Normal cramping after delivery and when breastfeeding (totally normal).  I was feeling really well, but did take ibuprofen for the cramping because I decided I may as well be comfortable if it was available.  The doc asked for my pain levels. I said it was about a 2-3, but being managed well with ibuprofen.  In fact, it was in the system to just give to me regularly and I’d have to actually decline.  The nurses would wait to make sure I even took the meds.  He said to me, “do you need anything else?  Are you sure?”  I declined.  He said, “well let us know, because we can always give you something stronger if you need it.”  It was in that moment I saw how easily someone could become addicted to pain meds. 

I just heard a story from a friend last week about a nurse who was stealing them from work.  You’d never know it by looking at her. She was a great nurse.  But became addicted to opioids after routine medical care. 

So yes, did I have a choice to decline heavier pain meds?  Yes. But I almost felt like the doctor was pushing it.  And doctors went to medical school and know what is okay, right?  Sometimes people follow medical advice and it’s not always great. 

By the time I had my second one, 4 years later, I only received ibuprofen when I asked.  It was never just handed to me. 

I have no knowledge about this woman’s history, so I am not speaking to the story.  But I wanted to point out that it’s not exactly 99.99% a choice.

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9 minutes ago, OhNoNike said:

In fact, it was in the system to just give to me regularly and I’d have to actually decline

I have a fun story about being given meds as scheduled.   When I was in a rehab hospital after my second fusion I was on the exact same protocol that I had been on at home for the prior 10 or so years.  Medication that my husband and I routinely handled every single day with no problems.

After I had been there for maybe 4 or 5 days I started sleeping virtually all the time.  I was literally falling asleep in my wheelchair during physical therapy.  I can remember sitting in my chair and my head just being so fucking heavy I couldn't hold it up and my head would roll back as I was falling asleep, then I would startle awake and the process would start over again.

Unbeknownst to me I was being slowly overdosed.  On the day they had to give me narcan, as I was falling asleep before my PT time they asked my husband if I wanted more pain meds.   He said something like if they are scheduled then yes because they had me on the same schedule we used at home.   When they got me to the gym for PT one of my therapists realized what was happening and they got me back to my room and called in a dr.    

My husband said I really hated the sternum rub, though I have no memory of that (or of being taken back to my room and put in bed).  I do remember they trying to put in an IV and trying to tell them I was a hard stick.  I vividly remember the pain of the easy IO being DRILLED into my collarbone to give me the narcan and reverse the overdose.  I remember the next 3 days of having hallucinations and no pain meds because they won't work when you have had narcan (which makes sense, but your pain doesn't give a fuck about that).

We still don't know what they were actually doing that was different than we were doing at home, but I hadn't had anything close to an OD before it and I haven't since I got out of medical facilities and have control over my own meds again.

Thank you for the links @WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?  I'm working my way through the complaint and these 2 things stood out immediately to me.

 

Quote

21. In a Hospital Return Phone Report, completed on July 15, 2018 at 12:37 p.m., a

Denver Health Services clerk noted in Ms. Sanchez’s medical record that Ms. Sanchez had bacterial vaginosis and a urinary tract infection. Bacterial vaginosis is associated with an increased risk of premature birth. At that time, it was also noted that Ms. Sanchez was 30% effaced and 1-2 cm dilated, but had not been having contractions. Ms. Sanchez was in the early stages of labor.

 

2
Quote

28. In response to Ms. Sanchez’s clear notification that she was in labor, Deputy

Wherry contacted Nurse Chacon and relayed to Nurse Chacon what Ms. Sanchez had told her. Nurse Chacon examined Ms. Sanchez and noted in her medical chart that: (1) Ms. Sanchez reported that she had been experiencing contractions since 5:00 a.m. (and that the contractions had been constant), (2) Ms. Sanchez’s underwear was wet and bloody, and (3) Ms. Sanchez’s report that her water had broken.

 

 

That complaint was CHILLING.  @WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said that one of the settlements was due to a death.  What she didn't say was that TWO of the settlements were due to a homicide finding by the coroner after the inmates died in custody.  Both of the incidents involved a number of deputies piling on the inmate(s) to restrain them.  One man was 5'4" and 112 pounds.  The other was 5'5" and 135 pounds.   The deputies literally suffocated these men and then denied them medical care, in one case, because he was "faking being unconscious."

Jody wants the mother to bear some responsibility for her situation.  It's clear from reading the complaint that the mother did everything in her power to get herself medical care during her labor.   Nothing has stated whether this was her first child or not, but 3 weeks before her due date she was already 30% effaced and dilating. They knew this.  It was in her medical records at the jail.   It said right in her records that 3 weeks before her due date she was in the early stages of labor.

On top of all that, once the baby was born they were completely negligent in his care.  Even the absolute barest minimum was not done for that baby and they are quite lucky he survived.

They didn't even bother to wrap him up or dry him off.  They couldn't cut the umbilical cord, the firemen did it when they arrived from the 911 call that was eventually made.   They didn't clear the mucus from the baby's mouth/nose, they didn't give him a vit K shot or eye drops when they KNEW the mother had a bacterial infection.  They didn't weigh or measure him.  It goes on and on...things that someone who has never even had a baby would do out of common sense were not done for this baby.

I certainly hope the city of Denver pays him handsomely for their complete lack of his medical needs and he is set for the rest of his life.

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10 minutes ago, Curious said:

That complaint was CHILLING.  @WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said that one of the settlements was due to a death.  What she didn't say...

Yeah. By the time I posted, my eyes were crossing. I erred on the side of under-stating, rather than accidentally exaggerating. The details are very scary.

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I don’t think anyone mentioned this, but there is a very simple test that can be done to see if the mother’s water broke.

@Curious - thanks for summarizing that.  I had already made up my mind after seeing the video because there is no fucking reason why she should have given birth over 5 hours like that unassisted.  But what makes this even worse is that the nurse noted her underwear was wet but never investigated that?!  It’s an easy thing to prove or disprove!! 

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4 hours ago, Jody said:

You’re all getting butthurt over something I didn’t write. That’s typical FJ, but hey, I’m game for a good discussion.

Except you're not. My posts never addressed my personal stance on whether or when this woman deserved medical care; I only addressed your inability to argue effectively and demonstrate some emotional stability. 

You can't pretend that you are only acting up because you feel that LaP has smeared your name. Again, you called a poster who down voted one of your posts in another thread a "miserable excuse for a human being."

You've now moved on to calling women the c-bomb and insinuating that all 330 million Americans are dumb. 

We have very different definitions of "game for a good discussion."

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I am busy today. Just stopping by to say that I am a proud product of the Italian public school system. And I don't judge the Dutch school system on the basis of what I have witnessed on FJ.

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6 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

It sounds like she isn't the first to suffer. I was reading a report from a Denver television station, and it includes the full text of the lawsuit Ms. Sanchez's lawyer filed. I'm not a lawyer, but I did work my way down to about point #152 of 200 something points.

Given the 6 or 7 multimillion dollar lawsuits that Denver has lost, (that are listed as proof of the ongoing problem with inmate treatment, and medical neglect), I would have thought that it would have been cheaper to just properly train the deputies and other personnel, and hire the supervisors that are needed. (All of which has been recommended after these lost lawsuits, including one from over 10 years ago.) How many people could be hired for those millions of dollars? (At least one of the lawsuits the city lost was over a death.)

I was also disturbed to read in the suit (and here, which is much shorter), that Ms. Sanchez suffered from a bacterial infection that put her at risk for premature delivery.

It sounds like the correction system in Denver is beyond broken. It makes me worry about how well the county jail in my county works; if corrections officers are properly supervised and trained, and if inmates' medical needs are taken seriously. 

Thank you for doing that research.  I’m even more horrified now. What the actual fuck?

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12 hours ago, Jody said:

She s in part to blame for getting herself in a situation where she had to give birth  in jail. She deserved better, but is bot blameless.

But there is no blame for her being abused? Correct? So she shares no blame for how the prison treated her? Just because someone got into a bad situation by making bad life choices doesn't mean they are to blame when they are abused by a terrible system. It is victim blaming to do so. She can do bad things that put her in jail and still be a victim of abuse by the prison system. 

So either she is not to blame for being left to give birth on her own. Or she does share blame for that and that is victim blaming. She is the victim of being abused by the system. If I ran of the road and needed medical care I might share blame for the accident, but I wouldn't share any blame if the medical staff came by, shrugged and let me suffer instead of helping. It would be victim blaming to say I share blame when a system failed and abused me no matter what  happened before that.  

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1 hour ago, Destiny said:

Thank you for doing that research.  I’m even more horrified now. What the actual fuck?

I don't always look until I find primary sources, raw data, whatever you call it, but that kind of thing was part of what led me to FJ. I wanted to see the Josh Duggar police reports, and I couldn't get them to open from In Touch on my iPhone4. But on FJ, I could. Lucky me!

Local news often has more info than national. ( @Howl and a few others demonstrated that to me during the Malheur Wildlife Refuge occupation.)

ETA--And, yeah. What the actual fuck?!

Edited by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
ETA
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6 hours ago, OhNoNike said:

I’m gathering from the conversation that you may not live in the US, so you may not be aware of the huge problem we have with opioids.  People don’t need to be strapped in chairs, but there is that invisible chain of addiction. 

Story time.  I had my first baby about 9 years ago.  Uncomplicated vaginal delivery. Very little “collateral damage”.  Normal cramping after delivery and when breastfeeding (totally normal).  I was feeling really well, but did take ibuprofen for the cramping because I decided I may as well be comfortable if it was available.  The doc asked for my pain levels. I said it was about a 2-3, but being managed well with ibuprofen.  In fact, it was in the system to just give to me regularly and I’d have to actually decline.  The nurses would wait to make sure I even took the meds.  He said to me, “do you need anything else?  Are you sure?”  I declined.  He said, “well let us know, because we can always give you something stronger if you need it.”  It was in that moment I saw how easily someone could become addicted to pain meds. 

So yes, did I have a choice to decline heavier pain meds?  Yes. But I almost felt like the doctor was pushing it.  And doctors went to medical school and know what is okay, right?  Sometimes people follow medical advice and it’s not always great. 

 

This!!! About 10 years ago Playakid had surgery on a broken ankle. Dr prescribed Percocet, an opiod. He wrote the prescription for 80 tablets. When the nurse saw the prescription after the doctor left she made a comment that it was a lot of medication and suggested that we ask the pharmacist for a smaller number of pills when we filled the prescription. Playakid was studying to be in the addictions field at the time. He took one pill when we got him home after the same-day surgery and refused to take anymore. He was in tons of pain but from his studies he knew enough about the dangers of opiod addiction that he didn't want to take the chance. Without the nurse telling us that it was a lot of pills, and without my son's knowledge of the dangers, if we had just followed the doctor's very educated orders, who knows where we'd be today.

Not all addictions start with the wilfull misuse of banned substances.

Edited by Playagirl
Clarity. And I'm too lazy to look for my glasses in order to see what the heck I'm typing
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If you want to read one of the most informative and eye-opening books ever written about addiction, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction by Gabor Maté is a must read. The author is a doctor who specialized in treating hardcore addicts, the worst of the worst. He also struggled with compulsive behavior of his own (not all addictions are substance based). You will gain an understanding of this most baffling human condition, the impact on the brain of certain substances and activities, along with deep insight into why addictive behavior is so resistant to change.

He uses the experiences of his patients, most of which are heartbreaking, but not all, to show the conditions that predispose to hard core addictions and the compassion society should have toward these individuals. He focused his practice on taking care of their medical needs as best he could, fully realizing that compliance would be spotty and many would die young. Dr. Maté made an excellent case for this approach as sensible social policy.  It's not an easy read, but I cannot recommend this book highly enough.

I have nothing to say about the troll, except that the carpet must be shitted upon from time to time. 

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We're taking up a collection for a new carpet cleaner.  The last couple of trolls have worn out at least one of our stock.

:chores-vacuum::chores-vacuum: :chores-vacuum: :chores-vacuum: :chores-vacuum:

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@SilverBeach I think this was the title that a friend of mine recommended once on the topic, which... I promptly could not remember. She has some very interesting perspectives, as she is both the biological daughter of an addict and an addiction counselor. She is quick to point out that most of the people she works with have a history of trauma and that ere are physical, social and mental aspects to addiction. No one wakes up one morning and goes "I think I'll become an addict."

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41 minutes ago, Terrie said:

@SilverBeach I think this was the title that a friend of mine recommended once on the topic, which... I promptly could not remember. She has some very interesting perspectives, as she is both the biological daughter of an addict and an addiction counselor. She is quick to point out that most of the people she works with have a history of trauma and that ere are physical, social and mental aspects to addiction. No one wakes up one morning and goes "I think I'll become an addict."

My older brother, who is now deceased, was a heroin addict and alcoholic for most of his life. Although he died in 2001, I am very interested in why he, and others like him, just can't stop despite the awful consequences of their addiction.  This book helped me have more compassion toward drug addicts, and myself as a recovering food addict. 

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I just really needed to know if 'hard drugs' translated into Duch is 'harddrugs'.   Seems its still two words. The speaker button gave me a nice accent so I can hear it spoken.  I've been around lots of Dutch people and they are usually so nice.  Like, best people ever.  Super fun.  Nothing like Scary Spice here.  ?

 

 

Screenshot_20190903-164342_Google.jpg

Edited by Beermeet
Reading glasses!
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57 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I just really needed to know if 'hard drugs' translated into Duch is 'harddrugs'.   Seems its still two words. The speaker button gave me a nice accent so I can hear it spoken.  I've been around lots of Dutch people and they are usually so nice.  Like, best people ever.  Super fun.  Nothing like Scary Spice here.  ?

 

I think she's right about it being "harddrugs." That's how it's written on wikipedia and google translates "hard drug" as one word for me as well. Googling the word also gave me an article about "harddrugs" and "softdrugs." Since it comes from English I can see how a Dutch speaker would think it should be written as one word in English as well.

Regarding addiction, I met a man whose son got cancer in his 20s and was started on opioids. He survived cancer but the addiction stayed and he died of an overdose just two years later.

Addiction is powerful, and a lot of people seem to want to sort opioid users into either legitimate users or addicts, but reality isn't that simple.

Edited by Rachel333
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@Rachel333  The spoken version ( well, computer voice) did run it together.  Weird it didn't spell that way. It's crazy how much Germanic languages influenced American English.  It's pretty cool. 

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On 9/2/2019 at 5:33 AM, Jody said:

@laPapessaGiovanna Nothing to say now that I’ve called you out on your bullshit? Accuse me again of wishing ill on an innocent baby you deranged fuck.

16 hours ago, Jody said:

It is funny - youmust have been to school in America to be this dumb - that you have been unable to both rad and comprehend the rest of my posts, specifically the one where I said that I hope the baby grows up happy, healthy and with loving parents. If that still says to you that I’m a could hearted bitch, you’re not just the product of the American school system, you go out of your way to be a dumb cunt.

 

16 hours ago, Jody said:

Sweetheart, there is no mention in my post of wanting to deny the woman help. You’re all getting butthurt over something I didn’t write. That’s typical FJ, but hey, I’m game for a good discussion.

There you go sweetheart. And an extra hard laugh because you are also to dumb to read (as I’ve said countless times that the staff should have intervened) but want to follow the butthurt mindhive. While you’re at it, why don’t you also accuse me of being a racist transphobic hater ??????????

As someone who is a "product" of the American school system and now works in the same school system, I only have a small thing to say to the mess that is your replies. From my sweet and apparently dumb southern American soul I say bless your heart, darling. 

*bolding mine

Edited by dairyfreelife
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16 hours ago, Curious said:

This stat is pretty likely untrue, but I'm not going to try and qualify such a wide generalization.

What I will say is that people can start taking a drug by choice and become addicted to it when it is a LEGAL perscription.   I won't try to discuss why some people become addicted and others don't because I don't understand it.   I understand that some people get a "high" off drugs, but I don't understand what that feels like.  I don't undrestand how enticing that feeling might be to someone that has been in pain for many years and suddenly has relief.  I don't have the misfortune to know what it feels like to be physically dependent and lose my health insurance or doctor so now I'm in withdrawal through no fault of my own.

Since I do know what withdrawal feels like I DO understand why a person would do extreme things to make that feeling end.

I could say 99.9% of lawyers are assholes and I probably have a better shot at being correct that your stat from the Ken Alexander School of Statistics.

When one person you meet is an asshole they are probably an asshole.  When *everyone* you meet is an asshole, YOU might be the asshole.   Something to consider.

The staff of FJ does not intervene unless rules have been broken.  No rules have been broken.    Just because you want something to be a rule doesn't mean it magically becomes one. @Destiny addressed this after your explination of the serial killer comment.

FJ does not hold the hands of its members.  You are expected, as an adult, to be able to deal with interpersonal disagreements on your own.   If I rule is broken or in some cases the line to being broken is being trod upon action is taken.

Until that happens no one is going to intervene because you are too dim to understand that you can make a statement and then fully negate that statement with your follow up.

I will let this go because English is probably not her first language and it's hard for native English speakers to get things right because we have weird grammar rules and homonyms that I'm not sure other languages have.

I couldn't learn another language if my life depended on it, so I give props to people that have that ability.

Your point is taken, in spirit, though ;)

That was pretty dumb reading, bc I have referred to the staff at the prison. Not FJ.

2 hours ago, dairyfreelife said:

 

As someone who is a "product" of the American school system and now works in the same school system, I only have a small thing to say to the mess that is your replies. From my sweet and apparently dumb southern American soul I say bless your heart, darling. 

*bolding mine

Yes dear, I meant you personally, bless your heart.

4 hours ago, Beermeet said:

I just really needed to know if 'hard drugs' translated into Duch is 'harddrugs'.   Seems its still two words. The speaker button gave me a nice accent so I can hear it spoken.  I've been around lots of Dutch people and they are usually so nice.  Like, best people ever.  Super fun.  Nothing like Scary Spice here.  ?

 

 

Screenshot_20190903-164342_Google.jpg

I don’t really care, as both are used indiscriminately, thanks for Looking itup for me though. However, of spelling is that important to you, I assume you go at that poster in the Anderson thread who keeps misspelling Chloe as Chole? Every time someone says there instead of their? Go ahead? Not much fun, but hey, if it tickles your fancy.

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Nevermind,  you are Angry Spice. Damn, so much anger.  No way to go trough life. Chill out!  I'll look up new things as I see fit. Tyvm. ?

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16 hours ago, Curious said:

As someone that has seen many lawyers argue in court, I feel really sorry for any judges that have to deal with you if this is how you make your points in court.   I'd hate to think how you'd react to a judge overruling your objection.  :mouse-shock:

Yes, you said the staff should have intervened earlier (whatever that means.  You didn't give any specifics).  You THEN went on to say a whole paragraph of stuff that BLAMED the mother for giving birth unattended, including the wonderful excuse of "people in prison get busy."

When it's your job to monitor the medical well-being of prisoners, which is supposedly the unit she was housed on, it's your J O B to make sure that no one is giving birth unattended.   They don't even have the excuse of not realizing she was in labor because she didn't tell them.    They passed a chux through the damn door for her to lay on.

Her water broke.  That is a lot of fluid.  They didn't even pass her a change of clothes, FFS.

If you had stopped after that first sentence, no one would be handing you your ass right now, you didn't though.  You continued on and proceeded to victim blame the mother for her situation, which is what people are bristling at.

Being in jail = punishment for your actions of breaking the law.

Given birth unattended = violation of your basic rights

These are very simple concepts so I'm really surprised that as a lawyer you are having problems understanding what we are saying.

 

You compare and opinion on an internet forum about a druggie with the handeling of a case? Grasping, but ok. You might want to consider that as a lawyer, I could also be defending the prison ?, but if you wanted a brief from me, why didn’t you just ask. My fee is € 225,- plus taxes and office fees ???????

no seriously. I have a different opinion. I get why you think i’m victim blaming, i don’t quite agree. What i don’t accept is being accused of finding a baby unworthy of med assistance. BS. The end.

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