Duggars by the Dozen 38: What Can They Shill Next?

[formergothardite]

14 minutes ago, purjolok84 said:

(I'm going on assume Nathan doesn't have a valid license to do what he does) makes me furious! How does this happen?

Because he is a a white male fundie who does it for Jesus and found a scam organization that will let him do it. This is why it matters who goes into disaster areas to help. 

Nathan has some emergency responder  basic training but nothing that come close to qualifying him to do dental work. 

 

[SadieJane]

As someone who has done humanitarian missions thru their life,  I look at this as, sure, the fundies could do some good but here's what is known. We know Mediccorps didn't have clearance to help in humanitarian efforts when they got there. How do we know? Well the cbs clip  that the reporter didn't recognize them, but said something along the lines of  "families were just showing up, asking permission to help." If they are there to work, do outreach such as, helping with building, recovery, hygienics, and fuck ever minor medical, then fuck yeah. Good job Duggars. However what we have seen, which is tiny, they are in the way and probably setting up to exploit the Bahamian people, which is horrible.. Also, they couldn't get their own name?!?! If I was Medicorp I would be pissed.  

[LacyMay]

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/09/749005287/american-with-no-medical-training-ran-center-for-malnourished-ugandan-kids-105-d

Renne Bach had great intentions and meant well. Now she's being sued because 105 children died in the feeding center where she basically played medical professional. 

Nathan playing dentist is despicable (sorry I'm not fully awake yet and I can't find a better word) if you think it's anything less of despicable I want to ask you if a young fundie man from Uganda came to your community with no dental education and no medical background would you want him providing dental care for you or your children? If your answer is no I want you to think long and hard about why you would support Nathan Bates doing it in another country. (I'm not saying anyone here supports Nathan doing dental work. It's a very hypothetical you) 

I one of the things about this that makes me so mad is that in addition to the negative impact it has in the area that they are travelling to their brand of look at me service preys on the guilt that other people feel about not being able to help. 

Sorry I'm just so annoyed by this whole dog and pony show. 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by LacyMay
Edited for riffles (rage induced riffles)

[DarkAnts]

I saw a news report today. There are over 70,000 homeless people there now. The locals need shelter and food NOW.  The Duggar's and Bates are using these resources.

[FrozenSmile]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

And that attitude is what ended up with untrained Nathan practicing dental care on children in an area he flew to. Yes, it does matter what their motives are. It matters a great, great deal. 

 

They started an organization that has a very similar name to a real organization, a classic scam strategy. Lawson and Nathan have a long history traveling out of the country to exploit people who need help. Lawson just uses them as props and Nathan for his dental experimentation. Why are you giving them any benefit of a doubt? 

I know literally nothing about the Bates family, but nobody should be doing dental work without a license. Pretty sure that’s illegal. I also know nothing about how charities work or any of that, but if it’s something illegal they will get in trouble for it (and rightfully so).

The reason i give them the benefit of the doubt is because i don’t just assume that they are up to no good. I’ve been in hurricane zones before, i’ve done recovery work in flood zones, and i promise you there’s no time for preaching when there are desperate people needing help. As long as they are actually working & not just “taking up space” (which is just another assumption, since none of us are in the Bahamas to see them) i will continue to give them the benefit of the doubt.

And if it turns out i’m wrong, then i’ll eat my words. But if i was in need of help like that, i sure wouldn’t turn them down simply because they are Duggars.  

 

[formergothardite]

20 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

The reason i give them the benefit of the doubt is because i don’t just assume that they are up to no good.

But you absolutely should assume they are up to no good. How many chances do you give people when they exploit the vulnerable before you start automatically suspecting them? No matter if the Duggars don't go and use children for dental experiments, the Bates do and they have hooked themselves up with the Bates. They know what the Bates are, they know what they do when they go into vulnerable areas and they still wanted them to be a part of this. So what sort of people does this make the Duggars?  They have partnered with people who have a long history of exploiting vulnerable people when they are at need. People who knowingly do that are not typically up to good. 

Don't give people like that a benefit of a doubt. They lost the chance for that when they invited the Bates to go along with them. If I was in need of help I would turn them down because I don't want people who have a habit of abusing and exploiting people worming their way into my lives. You really want a guy who uses children for his untrained dental experiments in your life?

ETA: Really bad things end up happening when a benefit of a doubt is given to people who have a history of exploiting the vulnerable. The Duggars are guilty by knowningly bringing the Bates with them. To protect the people at risk everyone should assume that they are up to no good. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by formergothardite

[Palimpsest]

And I just noticed another joke on the Duggar-Bates vanity project MEDIC Corps (501(c)3 status pending) website.  When they are not flying off half-cocked to the Bahamas this is their Current Project:

Quote

Bringing the U.S.A 911 Response and care system to the Philippines.

• Install 911 Systems
• Equip and train First Responders
• Installing and training LifeFlight responders
• Train and equip hospital staff bring up the level of care to first world standards
• Implement Chaplaincy program in the hospital
• Connect patients and families with local churches for continued support and care

What is wrong with this picture?

• The Philippines already has an established and efficient 911 system
• In the Philippines First Responder and EMT training is provided and certified by the Technical Education and Skills Development Authority (TESDA)
• The Philippines already has a free public health system, and many public and private hospitals that are definitely on a par with those in developed countries
• The Phillipines is served by many air ambulance services already
• The Philippines is a primary provider of qualified nurses world-wide
• The Philippines has received UN praise for its disaster preparedness system

And

• In the Philippines about 92% of the population already identifies as Christian, although Fundies and Evangelicals are rather thin on the ground because most Filipinos  are Catholic.

The Duggars and Bateses should stick to improving medical services and converting people in Arkansas and Tennessee.  Their ALERT "Christian" EMT and ERT training certificates are probably a lot more relevant there.

[Melissa1977]

4 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

Disclaimer: My own prospective. Others have probably experienced something completely different.

 

Since we're on this topic. After 9/11( I don't want to go into details about the actual day tbh), a lot of people I know stopped giving to Red Cross. It's not a bad organization but the way the crisis was handled pissed us NYCers off. There are 9 million New Yorkers plus countless other people workers/tourists/etc. They imported clerical and other employees from other cities and paid them a lot of money. I went to college right next to City Hall( about 4 blocks from ground zero) all of my fellow classmates were trying to help. But they wouldn't let us. Our school was closed for 3 weeks and used a first aid center. Red Cross spent a crazy amount of money paying employees when they could have had a ton of skilled people who had nothing to do but sit on their hands waiting for normal. It's quite disheartening when you witness something so tragic and can't actually be productive. After that I haven't been a fan of Red Cross. 

As far as I know, the same thing happened after Haiti. It's been really hard to believe them when you've seen the opposite. Money just disappears. 

How can Red Cross verify that all these people are really skilled? It takes time. If someone claims being a nurse or an expert in electricity and it's not true, situation gets worse. Red cross could even be sued.

Also takes time training people to work as a team with people they not know, in a stressful environtment. Disasters need a very quick reaction and it works better with people used to that.

Of course, people who work in disasters are well paid. They are working long hours, probably in danger.

I remember when I discovered that Doctors Without Borders were actually well paid. I thought they were volunteers. One of them explained me that if they don't pay, lots of great doctors, who can't afford living with no salary, would never be able to join. Only rich doctors would join, and it's not plenty of them. Also a lot of organisations are afraid of volunteers, because, as there is not a legal contract, they leave when they get tired and are not reliable. 

 

[FrozenSmile]

5 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

But you absolutely should assume they are up to no good. How many chances do you give people when they exploit the vulnerable before you start automatically suspecting them? No matter if the Duggars don't go and use children for dental experiments, the Bates do and they have hooked themselves up with the Bates. They know what the Bates are, they know what they do when they go into vulnerable areas and they still wanted them to be a part of this. So what sort of people does this make the Duggars?  They have partnered with people who have a long history of exploiting vulnerable people when they are at need. People who knowingly do that are not typically up to good. 

Don't give people like that a benefit of a doubt. They lost the chance for that when they invited the Bates to go along with them. If I was in need of help I would turn them down because I don't want people who have a habit of abusing and exploiting people worming their way into my lives. You really want a guy who uses children for his untrained dental experiments in your life?

 How are they exploiting the vulnerable in this situation? Honest question. And i mean the Duggars, because, again, i don’t know the Bates’, haven’t met any of the Bates’, know nothing about them or what they do/have done. If they had taken the entire family, sure, they’d get pretty big side-eye from me, because a hurricane zone is no place for little kids. But it’s 8 adults, doing what the Bible has taught them to do, which is to be the “hands of Jesus” in times of need. If they are truly out there, serving food, rescuing people, whatever, then they are helping. They aren’t abusing or exploiting anyone.

As for the Bates’, i need to do some research on them. Lots of churches do medical mission trips, but i was always under the impression that the people that went on them were actually qualified. It’s totally wrong & yes, exploitative to do medical work you aren’t qualified to do. Why does anyone need to do medical missions in the Philippines, though? It’s not exactly a third-world country, which is where most medical missions groups i’ve seen go. I acknowledge that i tend to have rose-colored glasses when it comes to the Duggars, but that’s only because i know them in “real life.” (That’s the main reason i joined here, because i don’t want to have rose-colored glasses, i want to learn & see all sides! And you guys make me think about things i may not have thought about before) I absolutely don’t agree with everything they say or do, and i certainly don’t know everything about what they are like in their day-to-day life, but i can say that i’m sitting in my comfy living room while they are out there in basically a war zone, and to assume that they are just there for publicity or to take up space isn’t fair. I’ve been through hurricanes before. I know what they are being faced with there (although i’m positive this one is much worse than i’ve seen), and the Bahamian people are happy to have the help. According to a newscast i saw yesterday (maybe the day before, can’t remember), the Bahamian man they were talking to said that the only help they were getting was from America, that the Bahamian government was doing nothing for them. Chef Jose Andres (i probably spelled that wrong) is trying to give the people food, and someone in charge turned him away. If they are truly just taking up space, then they will be told to leave, as they should. 

2 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I remember when I discovered that Doctors Without Borders were actually well paid. I thought they were volunteers. One of them explained me that if they don't pay, lots of great doctors, who can't afford living with no salary, would never be able to join. Only rich doctors would join, and it's not plenty of them. Also a lot of organisations are afraid of volunteers, because, as there is not a legal contract, they leave when they get tired and are not reliable. 

 

I thought Doctors Without Borders were volunteers too! I had no idea! 

And someone said above about them saying ALERT is their medical training. I 100% agree with you that ALERT is nothing but a Gothard-ized attempt at something like the scouts, and it is absolutely NOT real medical training. They get zero of my benefits of the doubt if that is what they are going on as their training. But if they did real EMT training (through the state, the legit way) and have kept up with licensing or whatever, then they are qualified. But good grief, not ALERT. 

[Palimpsest]

4 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

But it’s 8 adults, doing what the Bible has taught them to do,

Does the Bible teach people to misrepresent their qualifications and their mission, use facilities, services, and provisions desperately needed by evacuees, and rush in where far better qualified angels fear to tread?

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

How are they exploiting the vulnerable in this situation? Honest question. And i mean the Duggars, because, again, i don’t know the Bates’, haven’t met any of the Bates’, know nothing about them or what they do/have done.

We don't know what they are really doing, though, do we? We don't know what vulnerable people they will be in contact with and how they will treat them. We just know that the Duggars, when choosing who to bring, picked the guy who traveled out of the country to practice dental work on children while he had no training. And another guy who has been on multiple "help out in disaster" trips and spent the entire time finding vulnerable people to use as props in his selfies. 

So, again what does it say about the Duggars that they chose people who exploit the vulnerable to go on their trip with them? It sure as hell doesn't show that they care about making sure no one is abused or taken advantage of. 

So why are you insisting on giving them a benefit of a doubt when they showed they didn't care about making sure they partnered with people who are on the up and up?If they gave one shit about making sure that no one would be exploited or taken advantage of then Nathan and Lawson Bates wouldn't be there with them. 

People giving a benefit of a doubt to white Christians flouncing into foreign countries, and in the Duggars case bringing two guys who sure as hell shouldn't be there with them, is how bad, bad things happen.

In the past Nathan especially has been very careful to not reveal what group he is with. I wonder if he will now be using the Duggar's group to go to his untrained dental work. And if he wanted to, would the Duggars say a word? It doens't seem like what he did bothered them at all which is a HUGE red flag. 

[Beermeet]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

And that attitude is what ended up with untrained Nathan practicing dental care on children in an area he flew to. Yes, it does matter what their motives are. It matters a great, great deal. 

 

They started an organization that has a very similar name to a real organization, a classic scam strategy. Lawson and Nathan have a long history traveling out of the country to exploit people who need help. Lawson just uses them as props and Nathan for his dental experimentation. Why are you giving them any benefit of a doubt? 

Can you please elaborate on Nathan giving dental care? Wtaf. 

[FrozenSmile]

Just now, Palimpsest said:

Does the Bible teach people to misrepresent their qualifications and their mission, use facilities, services, and provisions desperately needed by evacuees, and rush in where far better qualified angels fear to tread?

Nope, the Bible just teaches to GO, to help where there is need. It says nothing about being qualified. I did a flood relief mission trip when i was in college. We went after most of the other relief groups had left, when the world had moved on to the next problem. It was the hardest work i’ve ever done in my life, and i had zero training of any kind. None. But i didn’t need training to move sandbags, or tear down walls, or swing a crowbar - all i needed was an able body & the ability to help. It was a mission trip, but i never once told anyone about God, none of us did. But the people we helped just saw helpers, and they were more than grateful. 

[Palimpsest]

By the way, this is the Chef Andres story.  He has his own private charity too.  And he fucked up.  Do-gooding without thinking.

Quote

From here, the chef headed for Treasure Cay. After landing on a tennis court, one local cautioned Andrés. "This right here, right now, has only been allowed to be used so far for Coast Guard," he said. "This [helipad], what we set up here was for Coast Guard only for emergency evacuations."

They didn't know him. The man asked for Andrés' contact information before declining his offer to deliver even more food every day.

"Sir, I've never had a business card in my life," Andrés said.

The man began to walk away. Andrés tried to stop him: "Look, I'm here, I'm going to come every day for you."

"You make available how to reach you, we'll coordinate how to do all of that, okay?"

"But I'll come every day to bring you food."

"We're not looking for a few sandwiches out of helicopter," the man said. "We need to set up a real food center here."

Andrés then visited a community center where a woman told the chef what they need for this island's roughly 1,500 people. "What we need is pasta, pasta sauce, canned goods, rice, grits."

"Shelf-stable?"

"Yes."

"You don't have a lot of quantity of those? Do you have the capacity to cook it?"

"Yes."

How rude of these people to refuse his charitable sammies, but he should have asked first what he should bring.  And not landed on a spot reserved for emergency evacuations by by the coast guard.  And understood that the survivors of natural disasters prefer to be empowered not patronised. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hurricane-dorian-bahamians-lash-out-at-government-over-disaster-response/

Honestly, media coverage is part of the problem.  The media whips up emotions and encourages attention and donations to celebrity do-gooders who fuck up.

And of course the Bahamians are angry.  No relief will ever come fast enough and anger is a natural response to fear and loss.

Another far more useful article.  https://money.howstuffworks.com/5-donation-tips-for-really-helping-disaster-victims.htm

[formergothardite]

4 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Can you please elaborate on Nathan giving dental care? Wtaf. 

There isn't a whole lot to the story. He has no training to do any sort of dental work yet twice he traveled to the Philippines and was shown in pictures doing dental work on children. Lots of comments asking about how he was able to do dental work and no one in the family would reply. How long as this Medic Corps been around? Because he was careful to not reveal what group he was traveling with and I'm wondering if it was this group. 

And honestly, it is irrelevant if they hurt anyone in this particular trip. They are allowing people to go with them who they know have a bad history(or they don't view what he did as bad),therefore they are not a good organization and should not be allowed to go into areas where they will be in contact with vulnerable people who are at risk of being taken advantage of. So the two options are, they think Nathan doing dental work while untrained is fine or they know it isn't fine but just give no fucks about who is hurt when they go into an area. There are no options where they come out looking like a group that needs to be flying into areas that need help. 

 

[Chewing Gum]

16 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Can you please elaborate on Nathan giving dental care? Wtaf. 

I'm searching to find it too, I know it's around March 9th 2015 because that's when Lawson tweeted about it. I know there's a picture of Nathan doing dental work.

[formergothardite]

I don't think we ever found out a great deal about him doing dental work outside of the pictures. 

[Beermeet]

As I have mentioned,  I work in dentistry and I am shocked by this!  Say what now?  I could teach anyone to polish teeth in a few hours, but that's about it. You really need to know what you are doing and have experience.  WTAF????

These people are nuts and dangerous.  They are simply and erroneously wrong for doing this. If they want to help impoverished people get dental care, go to fucking dental school, at least hygiene.  As a licensed assistant with expanded functions,  I really could help and have. Under direction of a dentist though and with 20 yrs experience under my belt.  Fuck these people!  

Can he take and read xrays? That's a basic. Does he know about blood borne pathogens and precautions?  Does he know how to identify an abcess? No, I seriously doubt he does. Ugh, I'm pissed!

Edited September 7, 2019 by Beermeet
Clarification on what can be taught in a day.

[formergothardite]

18 minutes ago, Chewing Gum said:

I'm searching to find it too, I know it's around March 9th 2015 because that's when Lawson tweeted about it. I know there's a picture of Nathan doing dental work.

I scrolled through his instagram and saw the other pictures but couldn't find the dental ones. Same with the other trip they took. I wonder if they took them down because they were getting too many comments about how Nathan wasn't qualified to do dental work. 

But I could just be missing them. 

[FrozenSmile]

9 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

By the way, this is the Chef Andres story.  He has his own private charity too.  And he fucked up.  Do-gooding without thinking.

How rude of these people to refuse his charitable sammies, but he should have asked first what he should bring.  And not landed on a spot reserved for emergency evacuations by by the coast guard.  And understood that the survivors of natural disasters prefer to be empowered not patronised. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hurricane-dorian-bahamians-lash-out-at-government-over-disaster-response/

Honestly, media coverage is part of the problem.  The media whips up emotions and encourages attention and donations to celebrity do-gooders who fuck up.

And of course the Bahamians are angry.  No relief will ever come fast enough and anger is a natural response to fear and loss.

Another far more useful article.  https://money.howstuffworks.com/5-donation-tips-for-really-helping-disaster-victims.htm

Thank you for this. I hadn’t really looked at it from the coordination side of things, and if they are just flying around without coordinating with anyone then they are going about it wrong. It’s really easy to only look at the situation emotionally, like “just let them hand out sammies!!!”, but there has to be some kind of order or else it’s just going to get more chaotic. It’s going to take a long time for the islands to recover, and if we’ve learned anything from recent hurricanes, this one will be forgotten pretty quickly too, sadly. Maybe it would have been better for them to wait a while & then go to help. I don’t know, i don’t pretend to know their motives. Like i said, i hope that they are really doing this with good intentions. If it comes out that they weren’t, then i’ll admit i was wrong. 

As for the dentist Bates thing, is it possible that it was just a photo op to make him look like he was doing something? I mean, i don’t know why anyone would do that - mouths are gross, lol! I could never be a dentist or dental hygienist- you guys are rock stars in my book! Otherwise, he can get in a lot of trouble for impersonating a doctor, and the authorities that investigate that kind of thing should check into it. Or maybe he WAS doing actual dental work, which is why nobody can find the pictures, but they took care of it in-house, then sent him to Pray Away The Dentist camp to repent? ?

And this is completely off subject, but it was mentioned in the stats about the Philippines up there. Why do people think that Catholics aren’t Christian? It drives me crazy when i see this. I’m not Catholic, but i’m a Christian, and i think they are just as much Christian as i am. I don’t get it & wish someone could explain it to me. All i ever get is “i don’t know”

[Beermeet]

7@FrozenSmile  Some rude Christians say Catholics worship Mary over Jesus ( not true. Go into ANY catholic church and front and center is Jesus on the cross) , the Saints seem to be an issue,  not using KJV only,  not brining Bibles to church ( they are bibles in the pews, enough for everyone), priests being called Father. It's ridiculous.  There are more I'm forgetting. 

ETA:  also in the catholic church, the Stations of the Cross.  On the walls of any catholic church there are depictions of the crucifixion of Jesus. Every step. Once a year, there is a mass where the priest, (with the congregation following him) going through each picture.  When Jesus walked with the cross he was to be killed on, how he fell, how he had palms laid down at his feet to help him by followers, all the way from beginning to end. It's very solemn.  I always liked that mass. The story comes alive.  The priest is merely recounting what happened.  He's not the focus, he's the narrator.  It's confusing when Christians say Catholics don't worship Jesus. I beg to differ. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Beermeet

[LacyMay]

45 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

I did a flood relief mission trip when i was in college. We went after most of the other relief groups had left, when the world had moved on to the next problem. It was the hardest work i’ve ever done in my life, and i had zero training of any kind. None. But i didn’t need training to move sandbags, or tear down walls, or swing a crowbar - all i needed was an able body & the ability to help. It was a mission trip, but i never once told anyone about God, none of us did. But the people we helped just saw helpers, and they were more than grateful. 

I don't want to go through and quote out of a bunch of your posts so I'm going to quote this one because I think it will best work with the point I'm hoping to make. 

I said something simialar in the Jostin thread as well so apologies to those who are hearing me as a broken record. 

I honestly have no doubt that right now what they are doing is useful, I'm sure they have helped people I'm sure some locals appreciate that they are there. I also agree that they likely have the best of intentions and they genuinely believe they are being the hands and feet of Jesus and doing good works. 

But it's not a question of CAN they be there doing good works *but* SHOULD they be there doing good works? 

By being there they use the following resources. Runway space, fuel, food, clean drinkable water (this is a huge one), living space, telecommunications networks space (posting on instagram, texting/calling home), time of trained professionals and organizations who need to tell them what to do or babysit them. 

All of these things are in short supply. Runway space/fuel could be used for a helicopter or aircraft better equipped for search and rescue or disaster recovery, food and clean drinking water could be used by locals who lost everything, medical staff caring for the ill or trained recovery experts etc etc. When a huge and "remote" (I say remote because an island means getting people and supplies to it is more challenging.) Area is basically decimated every.single.action. as a ripple effect and means less of a valuable resource for someone else. Are they doing good works? Likely. But at what cost? And how much good are they doing longterm? 

You went on a flood relief trip *after*  most organizations had left meaning that likely a significant amount of the infrastructure had recovered and you weren't competing for as scare of resources. 

And being trained for disaster response doesn't mean you have specialized skills. It means you are trained to work effectively within an organization in a high stress environment. (Knowledge of incident command structure, how to keep yourself and others safe etc) my FIL was heavily involved with the Salvation Army was the point person for Emergency and Disaster response in his area and is now on call out lists. He isn't a dr but he can work effectively within the existing structure to provide assistance. Specialized skills really aren't as necessary at this point as much as training in disaster response and a role with a reputable organization. Fiscally larger orgs are also able to be more effective because they can better stretch a dollar. 

If the Lawson and Nathan wanted to drive down to Alabama the day after a tornado and clear trees I would be fine with it and probably commend them for it. They have a practical skill, experience in the area and can help without diverting scarce resources. They can and should be helping. 

In this case they really shouldn't be.

Edited September 7, 2019 by LacyMay

[Palimpsest]

50 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

Nope, the Bible just teaches to GO, to help where there is need. It says nothing about being qualified. I did a flood relief mission trip when i was in college. We went after most of the other relief groups had left, when the world had moved on to the next problem. It was the hardest work i’ve ever done in my life, and i had zero training of any kind. None. But i didn’t need training to move sandbags, or tear down walls, or swing a crowbar - all i needed was an able body & the ability to help. It was a mission trip, but i never once told anyone about God, none of us did. But the people we helped just saw helpers, and they were more than grateful. 

Well, the Bible is a teensy bit out of date.  I'm sure if God could revise some details in the light of the 21st century he might say "let trained and experienced people go first.  Then ask people what they need most, help clean up the damage, and think long-term about the effects of charity on the recipients.  Don't just GO because of that Great Commission thingie Fungeligals have misinterpreted to mean opportunities for evangelism."

Sorry, that probably sounded blasphemous.

That said, your mission trip for flood relief sounds well organised.  You untrained volunteers waited until the immediate emergency was over so you did not get in the way, did work that was needed at the time and was within your capabilities, and didn't preach.  Well done.

As to the motives of the Duggars and Bateses, I don't know.  The publicity grabbing already engaged in by Lawson and MEDIC Corps puts me off greatly.  Their website is a misleading mess.  And they are misrepresenting their qualifications and their mission in the Philippines on that website.  That makes me mistrust their motives, their capabilities, and their ability to provide real assistance.

16 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

And this is completely off subject, but it was mentioned in the stats about the Philippines up there. Why do people think that Catholics aren’t Christian? It drives me crazy when i see this. I’m not Catholic, but i’m a Christian, and i think they are just as much Christian as i am. I don’t get it & wish someone could explain it to me. All i ever get is “i don’t know”

That is a concept much promoted by many Fundamentalists and some Evangelicals.  Everyone who doesn't think exactly like them is wrong and not really Christian.  And they think Catholics are the worst.

This is one Born Again idiot holding forth about Catholicism being Satanic.  Please note that he gets a hell of a lot of things wrong about what Catholics actually believe.   https://www.born-again-christian.info/roman-catholics.htm

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Palimpsest

[FrozenSmile]

4 minutes ago, LacyMay said:

I don't want to go through and quote out of a bunch of your posts so I'm going to quote this one because I think it will best work with the point I'm hoping to make. 

I said something simialar in the Jostin thread as well so apologies to those who are hearing me as a broken record. 

I honestly have no doubt that right now what they are doing is useful, I'm sure they have helped people I'm sure some locals appreciate that they are there. I also agree that they likely have the best of intentions and they genuinely believe they are being the hands and feet of Jesus and doing good works. 

But it's not a question of CAN they be there doing good works and SHOULD they be there doing good works? 

By being there they use the following resources. Runway space, fuel, food, clean drinkable water (this is a huge one), living space, telecommunications networks space (posting on instagram, texting/calling home), time of trained professionals and organizations who need to tell them what to do or babysit them. 

All of these things are in short supply. Runway space/fuel could be used for a helicopter or aircraft better equipped for search and rescue or disaster recovery, food and clean drinking water could be used by locals who lost everything, medical staff caring for the ill or trained recovery experts etc etc. When a huge and "remote" (I say remote because an island means getting people and supplies to it is more challenging.) Area is basically decimated every.single.action. as a ripple effect and means less of a valuable resource for someone else. Are they doing good works? Likely. But at what cost? And how much good are they doing longterm? 

You went on a flood relief trip *after*  most organizations had left meaning that likely a significant amount of the infrastructure had recovered and you weren't competing for as scare of resources. 

And being trained for disaster response doesn't mean you have specialized skills. It means you are trained to work effectively within an organization in a high stress environment. (Knowledge of incident command structure, how to keep yourself and others safe etc) my FIL was heavily involved with the Salvation Army was the point person for Emergency and Disaster response in his area and is now on call out lists. He isn't a dr but he can work effectively within the existing structure to provide assistance. Specialized skills really aren't as necessary at this point as much as training in disaster response and a role with a reputable organization. Fiscally larger orgs are also able to be more effective because they can better stretch a dollar. 

If the Lawson and Nathan wanted to drive down to Alabama the day after a tornado and clear trees I would be fine with it and probably commend them for it. They have a practical skill, experience in the area and can help without diverting scarce resources. They can and should be helping. 

In this case they really shouldn't be.

When looking at it this way, i agree with you. I’m the first to admit that i’m a very emotionally-driven person, so i just say if you CAN, then you SHOULD, without thinking it out logically & seeing the rest of the story. Maybe they would be better served to go to Florida & help those that are still trying to come back from Hurricane Michael a year later & free up some of those responders to go to the Bahamas.

3 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Well, the Bible is a teensy bit out of date.  I'm sure if God could revise some details in the light of the 21st century he might say "let trained and experienced people go first.  Then ask people what they need most, help clean up the damage, and think long-term about the effects of charity on the recipients.  Don't just GO because of that Great Commission thingie Fungeligals have misinterpreted to mean opportunities for evangelism."

Sorry, that probably sounded blasphemous.

That said, your mission trip for flood relief sounds well organised.  You untrained volunteers waited until the immediate emergency was over so you did not get in the way, did work that was needed at the time and as within your capabilities, and didn't preach.  Well done.

As to the motives of the Duggars and Bateses, I don't know.  The publicity grabbing already engaged in by Lawson and MEDIC Corps puts me off greatly.  Their website is a misleading mess.  And they are misrepresenting their qualifications and their mission in the Philippines on that website.  That makes me mistrust their motives, their capabilities, and their ability to provide real assistance.

That is a concept much promoted by many Fundamentalists and some Evangelicals.  Everyone who doesn't think exactly like them is wrong and not really Christian.  And they think Catholics are the worst.

This is one Born Again idiot holding forth about Catholicism being Satanic.  Please note that he gets a hell of a lot of things wrong about what Catholics actually believe.   https://www.born-again-christian.info/roman-catholics.htm

 

Off to do some reading! (And not blasphemous - it made me laugh! 

[formergothardite]

19 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

Or maybe he WAS doing actual dental work, which is why nobody can find the pictures, but they took care of it in-house, then sent him to Pray Away The Dentist camp to repent? ?

I did post one of the pictures I saved on the last page if you don't believe me. There were two different instances where he did dental work. At the time there were tons of comments on the pictures asking if he was trained and they were either deleted or ignored.  It really isn't a joking matter. These are rabid Trumpers who wouldn't help a immigrant if they stepped foot in America but Nathan goes to their countries to do dental work with no training.! There is something so, I can't think of the proper word, but it is just awful that they view people who aren't American this way. They have traveled to places in America and no indication Nathan does dental work on American kids, no he just does that when he goes out of the country. 

The fact that this organization allowed him to go should be a giant red flag waving in the faces of everyone who thought they might not be bad. 

And NC is still recovering from hurricanes last year and now Dorian this year. They could have spent this year using their skills to help if their motivations were truly some biblical call to help those in need. But they didn't. They only go when they can get attention or Nathan can do dental work.