Dog food... Grain Free?

[Palimpsest]

9 minutes ago, Curious said:

When you feed it do you drain it or give them the oil as well?

They get all the oil as well as the sardines.  I buy canned sardines in olive oil in bulk from Costco.  It is good for keeping their coats nice and glossy.  They would eat sardines at every meal if they had their way.

But remember my pups are in the 58 - 65lb range.  LG at the lower end of that in peak condition.  So I'd start the kitties and your little dogs on sardines in oil cautiously, and be extra careful if you have anyone prone to pancreatitis.   Miss W and LG get half a can of sardines each on their kibble and veggies.  More than that and we'd have diarrhea to cope with!

@Kelsey, you have small dogs who like sardines.  How many sardines to they get per meal?

Oh, the popcorn incident wasn't pretty but it was a long time ago.  We had a guest leave a giant bowl of it unattended.  Three minutes later he came back to find an empty bowl, a very happy LG, and both the late Miss P and late Mr C looking on in horror.  They would never steal food!  I so miss those sweeties.

And I spent half the night taking LG out to poop large quantities of mostly undigested popcorn.

 

[Kelsey]

@Palimpsest I give my 'bigger' ones ((15 ish pounds) about 2-3 sardines (depending on size). My small one 5 pounds I give 2 sardines bc she is underweight and picky.

They would eat as many as I am willing to give them or until their bellies bursted though. They LOVE sardines.

Our problem food is spinach. My one dog will be lethargic and vomit if she eats it. 

 

[Palimpsest]

36 minutes ago, Kelsey said:

Our problem food is spinach. My one dog will be lethargic and vomit if she eats it. 

 

That describes me if I eat celery.  Food allergies and sensitivities are so weird.

[nvmbr02]

Thanks everyone for weighing in!

I have read everyone's thoughts and recommendations and in some ways I feel like I am back where we started. I think for now we are going to continue to feed Penny her kibble that she already likes and seems to work well for her. We will likely switch Gus to something different, I am undecided as of now, but we will likely look for something that isn't grain free.

In the meantime, we will up our supplements. We do a bit of home cooked now, mixed in with the left over rice but it is very occasional. I think we will up that so that they are getting home cooked for one meal a day at least 3 or 4 days a week and go from there. My almost 16 year old is willing to help out with that and once we get the rest of the way unpacked we are planning on buying a second freezer so we can hopefully meal prep for them ahead of time.  I'm also going to add the canned sardines. I am headed to the store in a but so I will pick up a can and we will give it a try.

When we first got Penny I had looked into feeding her raw. But it just didn't make much sense for us at the time. My MIL watches her 2-3 times a year for 10-15 days each time and she wouldn't be willing to feed any furry grandchildren raw meat. We also needed something a boarding facility could feed while in quarantine and an airline would use while flying. We aren't likely going to have to deal with them flying or being quarantine anymore. But we do still travel a decent amount and MIL has traveled with us a bit now and seems interested in doing more of it so we may need to board them if we can't find a new dog sitter for the house. 

I looked at the Farmer's Dog site and it looks amazing. But for the two dogs the monthly full plan is $380 a month. That's just too much for us right now. I may consider one of the supplement plans if adding some home cooked meals is too much. I do think will we be adding one more pup to our pack at some point. My youngest is really wanting a small dog and I think my husband will agree (I'm always happy to add more furbabies) once the puppy is settled in. It isn't likely to happen in the next few months, but he is not opposed to the idea so I think it will happen. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by nvmbr02

[Curious]

I think you said you are feeding wilderness now.  There are several varieties that are not grain free.  They have a chicken and rice one and I think a lamb and rice off the top of my head so maybe that would work for you.

On a separate topic, if your dogs have a high prey drive you will need to be careful what kind and size of small dog you get.  The toy breeds can be harmed and even killed by bigger dogs even when they are just playing and dogs with a high prey drive will often see small fluffy dogs as prey.  Just a word of caution.   I know people that have big and small dogs with no problems, but I also know people that have had a small dog killed by the big dog accidentally and also from the big dog deciding the small dog was a chew toy

@Palimpsest Thank you for the reminder about oil and pancreatitis.  Bun (the fatty bo batty) is prone to it and has had 3 bouts.  We have to restrict his chewies and be careful with what he is given from our plates.   I will start him without any oil on his food for sure.

[nvmbr02]

@Curious Thanks for the warning! Penny is fine, she has been smallish dogs her whole life. She has also spent time with bunnies and cats and doesn't have any interest in them. She will chase the lizards birds in our yard, but she ignores the wild bunnies. It is too soon to tell with Gus so far, but for now he just points at stuff when he notices it.

[AtTara]

I feed a mix of wet and dry to the puppies, along with freeze-dried dog treats (and occasionally human food because my teenager cooks steak, because well... sixteen-year-old male is hungry child).  They're good weights at the moment.  I worry about after they're neutered, though.  I've heard that altering dogs doesn't necessarily impact their weight, but four of the five dogs I've owned that I've had altered definitely got a titch more sausage-like post-alteration.

We work to ensure it doesn't happen (watching treats, one at a time, etc.), and we've managed to get our diabetic dog down to a healthy weight, but I'm still a bit worried about the puppies.  They're tiny, and they don't need additional weight on their sweet little bodies ?

[PennySycamore]

We used to feed grain-free dog food before our Shih tzu died, but the other two dogs don't have the skin issues that Chloe had.  Chloe had a lot of medical issues and grain-free definitely helped her skin.  I basically never had to take her to the vet for itching once she went grain-free.

Both dogs are spayed females and neither of them is overweight.  I don't want either of them to overweight, of course, but it's more important for my doxie as it's much better for their backs.  

[Curious]

17 minutes ago, AtTara said:

I feed a mix of wet and dry to the puppies, along with freeze-dried dog treats (and occasionally human food because my teenager cooks steak, because well... sixteen-year-old male is hungry child).  They're good weights at the moment.  I worry about after they're neutered, though.  I've heard that altering dogs doesn't necessarily impact their weight, but four of the five dogs I've owned that I've had altered definitely got a titch more sausage-like post-alteration.

We work to ensure it doesn't happen (watching treats, one at a time, etc.), and we've managed to get our diabetic dog down to a healthy weight, but I'm still a bit worried about the puppies.  They're tiny, and they don't need additional weight on their sweet little bodies ?

I don't think neutering necessarily means a lot of weight gain.  I think part of the reason altered dogs start to gain weight is partly that they also tend to be more slothy as they get older.  Even young dogs will sleep more than half the day in most cases.

If they are picky eaters you probably won't have any problems.  If they have never met food they didn't like, you might have some issues.   If you don't have an untrainer like my husband you can do things like cut their food into portions and then feed 1/4 or 1/2 as "treats" through the day rather than them getting the whole food portion PLUS treats.

You can also use veggie "fillers" like green beans or peas as treats.  They don't have many calories and they will make the dog feel fuller.

Honestly, I like my dogs to be just slightly overweight (not obese) because I've had dogs suffer from things like old age wasting and other problems that cause weight loss.  It's much easier to pull a dog back from the brink if they have a little extra weight they can lose before they start getting into things like organ failure.

I got about 18 months out of my 17 year old when he started losing weight and we couldn't figure out why.  It turned out he had a nydus (sp) of worms in his intestine and they didn't show up in a fecal.  As a last ditch effort, we wormed all the dogs and once he passed that gross ball of worms we managed to get him to gain 3 pounds back which my vet said is amazing for an old dog like that.

[AtTara]

29 minutes ago, Curious said:

If you don't have an untrainer like my husband you can do things like cut their food into portions and then feed 1/4 or 1/2 as "treats" through the day rather than them getting the whole food portion PLUS treats.

My husband used to be like that, but since our one dog became diabetic (and we became, by necessity, 2x/ day feeders), he's recovered.

The babies have kibble available all day, and only gnaw on it occasionally, but they wolf down their soft food and treats like very tiny horses.

[Lizzybet]

14 hours ago, Curious said:

I maintain that DFA is a good starting place for people that want to do better for their pets.

When we had four dogs, including a toy poodle, a Bichon Frise, a Lab/GSD mix, and a field bred Lab, I did a lot of reading on Linda Arndt’s Great Dane Lady site. The focus was Danes, but she had a lot of info on good nutrition for all dogs. She’s now passed, as have all four of those dogs, but I think the website’s still active.

I now prepare all the food for the Lab mix we have, as well as for all our own cats- fosters and colony cats included.

We have one feline foster failure who won’t eat wet food of any kind, homemade or canned... so she eats in the bathroom. I got everyone else completely off kibble, but it was an ordeal (for me).

I also subscribe to DFA.

[Curious]

2 minutes ago, Lizzybet said:

When we had four dogs, including a toy poodle, a Bichon Frise, a Lab/GSD mix, and a field bred Lab, I did a lot of reading on Linda Arndt’s Great Dane Lady site. The focus was Danes, but she had a lot of info on good nutrition for all dogs. She’s now passed, as have all four of those dogs, but I think the website’s still active.

I now prepare all the food for the Lab mix we have, as well as for all our own cats- fosters and colony cats included.

We have one feline foster failure who won’t eat wet food of any kind, homemade or canned... so she eats in the bathroom. I got everyone else completely off kibble, but it was an ordeal (for me).

I also subscribe to DFA.

The great dane site sounds familiar.  There was actually a site I liked before DFA that was a breed page, but had a lot of general info and discussed different dog foods.

What are you feeding your cats if you don't mind.  I would love to get all the cats on at least partial raw/home cooked, but cats scare me when they stop eating.  They can get fatty liver so easy and some cats have problems restarting eating if they quit for whatever reason.   I will let the dogs skip a meal if they are not feeling well or something comes up, but I like the cats to eat at least once a day.

Right now the adults are free fed in the cat room (a room blocked off so the cats have a place to escape if they choose.  Their litter boxes, food, water and a cat tree are in there.  They have full run of the house all the time.   The kittens are free fed both canned and dry in their pen.   We will stop constant access to canned when they hit 20 weeks and just go to being fed x amount 2-3 times a day.

I'd love to get them on homecooked and ditch the canned because it's going to be a PITA when the kittens have full run of the house.  The adults grew up with our old cat and she would *only* eat friskies canned.   So they are partial to friskies which I hate feeding them and will not feed to these kittens.   I haven't quite figured out the logistics yet so not having to deal with it would be a great solution

[Lizzybet]

9 hours ago, Curious said:

What are you feeding your cats if you don't mind.  I would love to get all the cats on at least partial raw/home cooked, but cats scare me when they stop eating.  

...

I'd love to get them on homecooked and ditch the canned because it's going to be a PITA when the kittens have full run of the house.  The adults grew up with our old cat and she would *only* eat friskies canned.   So they are partial to friskies which I hate feeding them and will not feed to these kittens.   I haven't quite figured out the logistics yet so not having to deal with it would be a great solution

I recently had a foster who stopped eating, but I didn’t notice until he was in hepatic lipidosis. I had to force feed, medicate him, and give sub q fluids for the better part of a week, before he began eating on his own. Even then, it was another week before his weight started to come back and he began to recover muscle. I felt awful for not realizing it sooner. We believe he had a very bad reaction to the rabies vax. 

Anyway, this is the site from here I got the recipe: https://catinfo.org/making-cat-food/

I use regular, not organic ingredients, because there’s no way I could afford to with so many cats to feed (I seldom eat organic foods, myself). But I buy all the same stuff humans eat.

The hard part was getting some of them to even try it, so initially I mixed the recipe in decreasing amounts of whatever canned cat food they’d eat. And I mean ANY canned! Also, she (Dr. Pierson) has tips and tricks for make the transition a bit easier.

No matter what you decide to feed, eventually, there is some wonderful advice and information on everything ‘cat’. I refer to it often.

I’d like to hear what you think and decide to do.

[Curious]

11 minutes ago, Lizzybet said:

I recently had a foster who stopped eating, but I didn’t notice until he was in hepatic lipidosis. I had to force feed, medicate him, and give sub q fluids for the better part of a week, before he began eating on his own. Even then, it was another week before his weight started to come back and he began to recover muscle. I felt awful for not realizing it sooner. We believe he had a very bad reaction to the rabies vax. 

Anyway, this is the site from here I got the recipe: https://catinfo.org/making-cat-food/

I use regular, not organic ingredients, because there’s no way I could afford to with so many cats to feed (I seldom eat organic foods, myself). But I buy all the same stuff humans eat.

The hard part was getting some of them to even try it, so initially I mixed the recipe in decreasing amounts of whatever canned cat food they’d eat. And I mean ANY canned! Also, she (Dr. Pierson) has tips and tricks for make the transition a bit easier.

No matter what you decide to feed, eventually, there is some wonderful advice and information on everything ‘cat’. I refer to it often.

I’d like to hear what you think and decide to do.

Thank you for the link.  I'm reading it now.  It's interesting so far.   I haven't gotten all the way through it, but I cringed when she says she bakes her chicken thighs because when feeding RMB it's drilled into you NEVER to feed cooked bones.   I am guessing she's not cooking the thighs enough to dry out the bone.  

I have read before that you shouldn't feed kibble for the reasons she states, including the low moisture content.  That was one thing I was worried about with the kittens because I had never had a kitten so young before.  They were old enough to be partially weaned, but they needed gruel when we first found them.

They both drink water readily though so that has been a big relief for me.  I do loosely monitor the adult cats water intake to make sure they are getting enough not to become dehydrated.   It's a bit harder to monitor since they use the "communal" water dishes, but one of them moves the dish around when drinking so it's easy to tell when she is getting a drink thanks to the noise.

I'm glad you got your guy eating again.  It can be rough.  We had an elderly cat that didn't completely stop eating, but she was not eating enough.   She ended up having a thyroid issue, which wasn't related other than she was losing weight rapidly.   I can't remember what med she was put on, but it had a "side effect" of appetite stimulant and within several doses, she was back to eating even better than she had before she sort of went off her food.

I'll let you know what we decide to do!

[Lizzybet]

@Curious the bones are still raw after the surface cooking. Actually, so is most of the meat.

I wouldn’t feed cooked bones to cats or dogs, either.

[Curious]

I didn't mention this in this thread, but my adult cats are also littermates and they both have diabetes and an autoimmune issue that causes Eosinophilic Granulomas or

plaques and they also get lumps on their lips on occasion.   One of them has a thyroid issue.  So far the other does not, but I'm just waiting for that shoe to fall since they both seem to end up with problems at the same or nearly same time.

When they were younger we used to have to get them both shots of convenia and another shot that is escaping me right now about twice a year to stop the plaques, but as they have aged they have stopped having the large areas of plaques (they were similar to lick granulomas if you have ever seen those.  In fact, I originally thought that is what they were when they first presented on both cats at the same time).  They still get the lip bump once in a while.   Giving them extra lysine makes those resolve faster, but getting that down them is a bit of a fight so unless they have one that hinders them eating/drinking we usually let them resolve on their own as they don't seem to bother the cats at all.

[Lizzybet]

@Curious every cat here gets Llysine 2x day. I stir it into warm water to dissolve it, then mix in the food. It’s tasteless, to me anyway. They don’t seem to mind it. Their dishes are licked clean.

What kind were you using? When I had fewer cats I bought NOW brand, but with so many right now, I buy Bulk Supplements brand. Both are available on Amazon.

[ALM7]

I go with the Blue Buffalo Wilderness kibble [varied flavors] for the kitties.  Boiled chicken breasts, shredded w/broth for wet food. 

However; I have a rescue, the vet guesstimated he was 12 y.o. (five years ago.)  Well 3 years ago, he had a back tooth issue. The vet gave us the antibiotics to clear up a minor infection, and scheduled an appointment for the dental work. 

Leading up to the appointment, and due to the tooth problem, I prepared pureed chicken breast, and he decided he no longer wanted it.  I panicked, the vet said try Gerber baby food (the type in the tiny glass jar, straight chicken, beef or turkey), she said it was very pure and wouldn't harm him. 

Guess what?  Three years later, he has a hissy fit if he doesn't get his 4 jars of baby food each day . He still eats the BBW, and boiled breasts, but has a major melt down if he doesn't have his baby food!  The vet said it's okay, he checks out fantastic at check-ups.  I have our market bring in ten sleeves a month for him.  I finally told them it's for my cat Lol.  I love him so much. The other kitties must think he is such a baby.

[nvmbr02]

Just thought I would update this a bit. Shortly after I posted the original post I switched Penny to Blue Buffalo senior chicken and rice food. She has been doing well with it. We also transitioned Gus to the chicken and rice puppy food by blue buffalo. However,  about 2 weeks after he started it he developed a rash on his belly, itchy forelegs, vomiting small amounts of food and losing a bit of fur, especially around his eyes and ears. We (along with our vet) thought it likely a food allergy and decided to eliminate chicken first. So we have switched him to Nutro Essentials lamb and rice puppy food. He has been on it for roughly 3 weeks now. He is a lot less itchy and the rash is gone. He also hasn't vomiting. So I hope we have found the culprit. So far the fur hasn't really grown back where it was thinning, but he hasn't lost any more so hopefully that will fill in during the next few weeks.

We make make some other food changes in the future, but for now we are happy enough with the kibble we have and both dogs seem to be doing well with it.