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Dog food... Grain Free?


nvmbr02

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Are you still feeding your dog a grain free diet? We have an 8 year old Springer Spaniel and a 4 month old Brittany mix. Currently we feed the 8 old Blue Buffalo Wilderness (chicken, senior formula) and she has been on Blue Buffalo for pretty much her whole life. We switched to the senior formula in Feb. The puppy is currently eating Nature Domain's puppy formula since that is what his foster fed and we want to get him settled in before we switch anything. 

With the warning from the FDA are you continuing to feed your dog grain free? Our older dog has been very healthy overall but we have recently (over the past 18ish months) had some issues with her coat, a coarser feel and also a bit of hair loss. The vet feels it is likely due to her age and doesn't see any signs of health issues. We have added some coconut oil to her diet on his advice, but I haven't seen much of a difference in coat feel or touch. 

Anyway, before we get the puppy settled on a new food I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts are?  Normally I research this kind of thing to death but I am just mentally drained right now.

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I searched "dog food grain free evidence based medicine" and here are some fairly short, simple articles I found:

https://news.wsu.edu/2019/01/28/veterinary-cardiologists-grain-free-dog-food-cause-heart-disease/

https://vet.osu.edu/vmc/companion/our-services/nutrition-support-service/myths-and-misconceptions-surrounding-pet-foods

I don't have a dog, but if I did I would only feed grain free if I knew it benefited my dog.

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I am. One of mine has severe allergies and can only eat one specific formula of grain-free dog food. 

Iirc, the problem is with certain combinations  of gfand not grain-free at large.

Either way, grain food isn't an option for my fuzzies.

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So my cousin in law is a vet with very strong opinions on this subject. She’s convinced my mom to toss grain free out and adopt other brands. From what I’ve heard, it sounds like legumes are the issue. 

Thanks to @Curious and others, I’ve been making a lot of dog food at home, but I’ve stopped adding peas and legumes, relying more on ground turkey for the protein. 

However, my dog is still kind of a dick. If we leave snacks out on the table in the living room at night, everything is gone in the morning. That he should never eat chocolate ever never crosses his mind (and we’ve had a number of frantic calls to the vet about this; he’s never consumed enough to actually go in for treatment ).

He’s still our favorite little asshole who loves breaking rules.

But from what I’ve read, grain-free doesn’t seem the best plan. Dogs evolved with us and also appreciate carbs?‍♀️

Edited by apandaaries
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Thanks for your thoughts.

Our older dog is not completely grain free. Her treats do have grain and she gets leftover rice a few times a week. And she's known to steal the bread off the counter anytime you turn your back. But the kibble is grain free. 

She does have some food allergies, though we were never able to pinpoint exactly what she is allergic to, so that is something we will have to consider as well. The vet at the time thought it was perhaps a preservative or another lesser known ingredient, since eliminating the normal suspects didn't seem to help. 

I think we will do some food shopping and give something else a go. I think for her, since she seems otherwise healthy we will go back to what she is eating now if we run into issues with allergies again. It has been 7ish years since we have last dealt with the food allergies. But with the younger pup we can figure something else out since we need to feed two types of food anyway. 

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@nvmbr02 I used to be quite rigid about feeding grain free food but I think there are a lot of myths and fads out there.  I've eased off on it.  But, although this is anecdata, I have never had a grain free fed dog develop heart problem

For dry coats I add a little safflower oil to their food.  My dogs also split a can of sardines in oil once a week.  It is cheaper than the fish oil gelcaps I used to use.

I feed a limited ingredient food because my hounds have sensitive stomachs.  But I supplement that with some home cooking.  Miss W had a lovely time recently because she had oral surgery (she ripped a gum) and had to eat a soft diet for 3 weeks.  She did perfectly well on ground turkey or chicken with pasta or rice, canned pure pumpkin (not the pie filling), and some pureed leafy greens.  

@apandaaries, I have a food thief too.  The Little Guy has a great "leave it" now and rarely tries for food when he knows you are watching.   But turn your back and...

He's a bottomless pit and perfectly fearless when it comes to accessing food.  But then he is a rescue who was abandoned on the streets and was starving when he was picked up.  I don't think I will ever train it out of him.  We deal with it by management.  No food is ever left out where he can reach it.  He also has a pretty big reach (he's only little in comparison to retired racing greys) and has been known to climb for food!  I'm lucky that (unlike my two most intelligent greys) he has never learned to open kitchen cabinets.  Yet.

 

 

 

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Obligatory newbie wave :)

My vet is very firmly anti-grainfree unless it's medically indicated.  Our chug (chihuahua/pug mix) is grainfree due to a combination of major food allergies and diabetes.  None of our other dogs are -- they eat variations of Royal Canin.

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My dogs food allergies are to chicken and beef. I think it's important for pet owners to get their dogs tested before they go on a grain free diet. 

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I think we are going to try Royal Canin. I remembered that when Penny, the adult dog, was still having her urinary difficulty (incontinence and recurrent infections) she was on the Royal Canin Urinary So food and didn't have any issues with it so maybe the regular food will work for her. 

We've only had the puppy a few days so fingers crossed we don't run into any food issues with him. 

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12 minutes ago, nvmbr02 said:

We've only had the puppy a few days so fingers crossed we don't run into any food issues with him. 

My fingers are crossed too.  And dogs are omnivores.  They don't all have food allergies.

But where are the puppy and Penny pictures?  I need a puppy fix and Penny sounds delightful! 

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Always happy to share pictures!

Here is Penny (Penelope). She turns 8 on Labor Day

86837306-3df2-4dd9-ab34-5b9bedc14106.thumb.jpg.d51d961132514bdd2d99c738bab92789.jpg fe877248-b7f9-4679-a820-156a310a8178.thumb.jpg.7d2f76c4cca64e5c18316d0a85d2955c.jpg

IMG_2485.thumb.jpg.a9b5935215c3eb08aecc7ebeb8b3d054.jpg

 

And here is Gus (Fergus) He was born May 24th and has grey/blue eyes

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44 minutes ago, nvmbr02 said:

I think we are going to try Royal Canin. I remembered that when Penny, the adult dog, was still having her urinary difficulty (incontinence and recurrent infections) she was on the Royal Canin Urinary So food and didn't have any issues with it so maybe the regular food will work for her. 

We've only had the puppy a few days so fingers crossed we don't run into any food issues with him. 

First, I saw the pictures and those are beautiful babies!

Our chiweenie (there's a theme to our dogs -- we also have two longhaired chihuahua puppies) is also on the Royal Canin Urinary SO food due to her bladder stone.  I don't think it's reduced in size, and we're likely looking at surgery, but on the plus side she hasn't had any more bladder infections since going on it.

Yeah, we've had a time of it, dog health-wise.  On top of the diabetic beastie and the Bladder Stone Queen, we also lost our 10-year-old "chorkie" to congestive heart failure back in December.  Thankfully we were able to have him humanely euthanized prior to either the CHF or the kidney failure (that his Lasix would have inevitably caused) taking his life.

All that said, we've had an excellent experience with Royal Canin.

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For the last several years, I've fed Ancestry (formerly Sammy Snacks) salmon and sweet potato. It's grain free, but when I started reading about the issues, I switched to their chicken and rice. My pup has done well on their food and I like their ingredient sourcing.

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Our dog isn’t grain-free. As far as we know she has no allergies or intolerances, so we don’t see a need to have her on any special diet. Velocipuppy was adopted from the Humane Society and was fed Hill’s Science Diet while there, so we just kept her on it once she came home with us. She seems to be doing well on that, though Velocipuppy is also a famed food thief. Our daughter has been an accessory to her stealing ways ever since she was old enough to raid the pantry (before I moved it to the upper cabinets. :roll:)

The current owners of our new home offered to leave their nice dog gate in the kitchen for us to have, so we’ll see if that manages to stop her - she can literally jump onto our kitchen counters from the ground from a complete standstill, so I’m skeptical the gate will actually help. ?

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I will preface this with the fact that we haven't fed kibble to dogs in years.  We do a combo of raw and homecooked.   I am a bit of a dog food nazi though.  My husband won't take me down dog food aisles if other people are there because he's afraid I will try and talk them into better food.  I'm gentle!

I have to caution against Royal Canin.   Years ago we did feed Royal Canin Senior to one of our dogs because he had 3 teeth and it was tiny bits and he loved it.   However, they sold the company to another company (and it's been so long I no longer remember the details) and the new company has really changed the ingredients and not for the better.

I will also say here that I am stabby about the whole "breed specific food" bullshit.  First, if you take the time to look at the ingredients there is no real difference between them.  It's a gimmick and it's meant to make pet owners feel good about feeding their dogs utter crap.

I picked the Adult Chihuahua food for my example here:

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Corn, chicken by-product meal, wheat gluten, oat groats, brewers rice, chicken fat, brown rice, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, vegetable oil, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, sodium silico aluminate, fructooligosaccharides, sodium tripolyphosphate, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], DL-methionine, taurine, choline chloride, L-lysine, salt, trace minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, copper proteinate], marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), L-tyrosine, L-carnitine, GLA safflower oil, glucosamine hydrochloride, green tea extract, magnesium oxide, chondroitin sulfate, rosemary extract, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid.

Even the cheapest dog foods other than store brand have moved away from corn as the first ingredient.  Corn is largely undigestable by dogs (and humans if we get technical) so the first ingredient in this food is essentially a filler.

Chicken by-product-meal... yay ground up feet and beaks! (at least they do list that it's chicken and not just "meat")

Then we have a bunch of carbs/fillers.  The only actual meat in this food seems to be the beaks and feet.

Corn as the first (or any for me) ingredient is an automatic disqualifier for me, personally.
Here is Royal Canin's Medium Puppy food:

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Chicken by-product meal, chicken fat, brewers rice, corn, wheat, corn gluten meal, dried plain beet pulp, wheat gluten, natural flavors, brewers rice flour, fish oil, monocalcium phosphate, vegetable oil, sodium silico aluminate, potassium chloride, salt, fructooligosaccharides, hydrolyzed yeast (source of betaglucans), Yucca schidigera extract, DL-methionine, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid], taurine, monosodium phosphate, choline chloride, trace minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, copper proteinate], L-lysine, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), carotene, rosemary extract, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid.

 

Beaks and feet first!  Two types of corn though :(

For comparison here is Blue  Wilderness Adult Chicken and Rice:
 

Quote

 

Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Barley, Oatmeal, Pea Starch, Flaxseed (source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids), Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Tomato Pomace, Natural Flavor, Peas, Pea Protein, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Potatoes, Dried Chicory Root, Pea Fiber, Alfalfa Nutrient Concentrate, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, Dicalcium Phosphate, Sweet Potatoes, Carrots, Garlic, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Sulfate, Vegetable Juice for color, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Blueberries, Cranberries, Barley Grass, Parsley, Turmeric, Dried Kelp, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Niacin (Vitamin B3), Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Copper Sulfate, Biotin (Vitamin B7), L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), L-Lysine, L-Carnitine, Vitamin A Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Sulfate, Taurine, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Dried Yeast, Dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Aspergillus niger fermentation extract, Dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, Dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Sodium Selenite, Oil of Rosemary.


 

My only nitpick with this food is that the probiotics are at the very end.  Ideally, I like to see them more toward the middle, but that's a pretty minor quibble really.

I like this site for dog food research: https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

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3 hours ago, Curious said:

I like this site for dog food research: https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

I realize I may be opening a can of worms, but the guy behind Dog Food Advisor is a dentist without any background in veterinary medicine. He's not even qualified to give in depth advice on diet for humans, let alone animals.

And yes, I've heard all of the reasons why I shouldn't trust vets when it comes to pet food. That still doesn't change the fact that they're more qualified to advise pet owners on pet nutrition.

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43 minutes ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

I realize I may be opening a can of worms, but the guy behind Dog Food Advisor is a dentist without any background in veterinary medicine. He's not even qualified to give in depth advice on diet for humans, let alone animals.

And yes, I've heard all of the reasons why I shouldn't trust vets when it comes to pet food. That still doesn't change the fact that they're more qualified to advise pet owners on pet nutrition.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  My previous vet knew I was more educated on pet nutrition than she was and frequently asked me questions.   I don't think she would have done that willy nilly.

Our current vet (my beloved vet left the practice when she had a baby a few years ago) admits she doesn't know much about nutrition and doesn't particularly like that we feed raw (she doesn't really care about homecooked), but she says she can't argue with the results.

We haven't had to do a dental on anyone in years.  We did have a dental done on our then 9 year old (now almost 12) Papillon for the first time because he was starting to get kind of gunky teeth and I didn't want him to have a dental after double digits if I could help it since older dogs tend to have more issues with anesthesia.

I have spent 20 years educating myself which is more than any vet other than a vet nutritionist.

My dogs also eat a much better diet than I do.

The site I use to compare (whole dog journal) is behind a paywall so I can't link to it.  No one should get all their information from one single site (on any topic).   I looked for reviews of DFA and can't find anything more current than 2015 and I know the site has made changes since then.

I maintain that DFA is a good starting place for people that want to do better for their pets.

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1 minute ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I have used that website with no issues. I used to do raw but Fred hates raw food (the first of five dogs over 22 years!) so I use this now:

https://www.thefarmersdog.com

I forget Fred's origins, but sometimes an older dog won't realize raw is actually food and need some help getting there.

If you are feeding RMB (raw meaty bones) if you run the piece you want to feed him under some warm water to get the chill off it and get juices running that can make a dog more receptive.

That being said, I've had dogs that would grudgingly eat raw, but really were happier on kibble.  They have all been rescues with other behavioral issues and I have come to wonder if just like people some dogs have issues with textures.

I know people that have very successfully gotten cats to eat raw, but I've never been able to.  I do have the kittens eating some homecooked and at 10 one of the adult cats finally decided that they would lower themselves to eat some boiled chicken we use in the home cooked IF it's freshly cooked.  If it has been in the fridge for feeding the next day she won't even look at it.

I just looked at the food you linked, but for us it would be like $225 per month so not doable right now.  It looks great though.   If medication prices ever get more reasonable (stop laughing!) I would absolutely give it a try.

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@Curious He was about six months old and dropped off at the pound with his litter. The pups had never been out the crate as best I can tell - he would pee in his bedding, just standing there. The stuff is too expensive but Peter is used to that kind of food for dogs in New Zealand - he can't stand giving them kibble!

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3 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

@Curious He was about six months old and dropped off at the pound with his litter. The pups had never been out the crate as best I can tell - he would pee in his bedding, just standing there. The stuff is too expensive but Peter is used to that kind of food for dogs in New Zealand - he can't stand giving them kibble!

If we just had 1 or 2 dogs it wouldn't be so bad, but with 4, even though they are small it adds up.  If my meds weren't so expensive and we had the extra disposable income I'd do it in a heartbeat.

We splurge once in a while and get them Fresh Pet as a treat. 

 

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Ha another person with 4 small dogs! 

We feed a mixture of gr kibble (food allergies) and one dog prefers kibble. They also eat plenty of fresh veggies and fruits as their only source of treats. They eat at least one can of sardines a week (usually 2 because they have learned to ask for them). 

They also get some freeze dried raw food as a treat but that just started last week. 

We will occasionally feed Honest Kitchen. 

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I don't get involved in the dog food wars anymore.  I think people should make their own choices after looking at as many sources of information as they can and discussing it with their vets.   

I feed the best quality kibble I can afford and supplement it with home cooking or mix in a few extra goodies.  The home cooking is really for the picky eaters or sick dogs.  As I said, the Little Guy will eat anything.  And tries to.  For the record, popcorn really does not agree with him, and I have never deliberately fed corn.

All my retired racers love fruit and vegetables (yes, I do check them all to make sure they aren't toxic to dogs).  They adore carrots and broccoli, but green beans and spinach are also popular.  So veggies count as goodies and help fill LG's bottomless pit.  He had to be put on a diet recently because he was losing his slender waistline. 

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1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

I don't get involved in the dog food wars anymore.  I think people should make their own choices after looking at as many sources of information as they can and discussing it with their vets.   

I feed the best quality kibble I can afford and supplement it with home cooking or mix in a few extra goodies.  The home cooking is really for the picky eaters or sick dogs.  As I said, the Little Guy will eat anything.  And tries to.  For the record, popcorn really does not agree with him, and I have never deliberately fed corn.

All my retired racers love fruit and vegetables (yes, I do check them all to make sure they aren't toxic to dogs).  They adore carrots and broccoli, but green beans and spinach are also popular.  So veggies count as goodies and help fill LG's bottomless pit.  He had to be put on a diet recently because he was losing his slender waistline. 

We have dogs ranging from very obese (he was on prednisone for like 10 years though so he blew up during that time.  He is also a bottomless pit having food stealer) to naturally slender.  Two of the chis are very sausagelike. 

My husband is VERY soft and he thinks if one treat is good, 5 or 10 are better.   I finally have him down to feeding 1 treat several times a day instead of several treats several times a day.  I started making him to go the vet alone so he gets the "weight speech" from her.

I am not happy about the 2 chis being overweight and I made him promise he wouldn't overfeed them when we got the first one, but I knew that was unrealistic.    The one other chi is fed the exact same way and she is in good weight.  In fact, until the last couple years she was on the almost too thin side.   She is a pickyish eater.  I had to hand feed her most meals until she was about 10 months old if I wanted her to eat well.   She will be 6 in November.

I don't accost people in stores, but I will gently ask them if they read labels if I see someone picking up beneful (which IMO uses false advertising) or meow mix.  Most people want to do the best they can for their pets, but a lot of people don't realize that you need to read labels just like human food.   If they know and still want to feed their dogs crap I'm fine with that and leave them alone.

I would give popcorn to my beloved Cajun once in a while because he enjoyed sharing, he wasn't overweight (another naturally thin dog) and it didn't cause him tummy problems.   None of the dogs we have now like it.  Cardi loves to share so I will give her one that she will not eat and then come back for another one.   I just clean them up when I'm done with the popcorn.  She is the baby so she can share if she wants ;)

I am going to have to try sardines.  We used to have 2 that would eat fresh smelt that we got at the ethnic grocery store (I hope that is not a bad way to say it.  I'm not sure what else to call it), but none of the dogs we currently have like it.   I bet the kittens might like sardines as well.

When you feed it do you drain it or give them the oil as well?

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