Joy & Austin 29: RV Living

[tabitha2]

I understand what you are saying. But this country wants the poor of all races to stay down in there “place” and instead of forward we just go backwards. 

 

I was listening to a song this morning... tell us about Ms Loretta. So true.The line about the baby particularly.

 

 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

11 minutes ago, Smee said:

It’s also worth noting that these people who “can’t afford to raise children” are often the same people who can’t afford birth control and have extremely limited access to abortion.

Not to mention a very limited access to good quality education.

42 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

That all may be and very fine sentiments but my mother had one child because she thought it was the “Right” thing to do. She had to hick the TV to buy food, my shoes had holes, we had no functioning vehicle most of the time amount other things.And she was certainly not able to “enjoy family life” for being exhausted from 2 jobs, stress and going to work injured.   Fuck being lonely. I would never bring a child into this world I could not give the best too materially or emotionally. 

 

Had she been paid a fair wage she wouldn't have needed to work two jobs. If laws about sick and injured workers were fair she wouldn't have had to work injured.

But no, some people's time and exertion aren't worth the same as other people's, so there's no need for a minimum wage. Some people are intrinsically less valuable for the work market so why investing in their recovery from an injury or from sickness? It's much better to tell them to not have offsprings because they'll never be able to afford a family.

The thing is that people aren't worthy as people, because people are intrinsically worthy of dignity. No, people are worthy only as long as they have marketable skills or inherited privilege. Their rights depend on how much they can earn or how much their parents left them.

Personally I chose to have only one daughter, for reasons. I could choose. Choice is a privilege when so many can't choose.

[lumpentheologie]

8 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

I understand what you are saying. But this country wants the poor of all races to stay down in there “place” and instead of forward we just go backwards. 

I agree with this 100%.  My comment about race was just to show that generational poverty disproportionately affects people of color, and so calls to limit poor people having children play right into the hands of white supremacists.  But that is in no way meant to detract from the terrible situations of poor white people. We need to all work together to change the forces keeping the poor down.  

[laPapessaGiovanna]

4 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I agree with this 100%.  My comment about race was just to show that generational poverty disproportionately affects people of color, and so calls to limit poor people having children play right into the hands of white supremacists.  But that is in no way meant to detract from the terrible situations of poor white people. We need to all work together to change the forces keeping the poor down.  

Valuing people on the basis of how much they have or how much they can earn and then tell poor people they shouldn't reproduce because they can't afford it, sounds a lot like eugenics.

[lumpentheologie]

13 minutes ago, Smee said:

Sort of on topic, what do people think of the argument that the government should get rid of tax deductions for charitable contributions? I can’t remember where I was reading it now, but a while back I saw an article that made a fairly compelling argument that the effect of those policies is people picking and choosing who is worthy of support. So (extremely simplified version) wealthy alumni donate to their old university or private school, and get reduced tax, leaving less money in the government accounts to spend on public education. 

Personally I donate to charities because I want to, not because it’s tax deductible, and I’d donate the same amount regardless. But maybe I should just not claim the tax deduction, so the government has a few extra bucks.

On the other hand, I kind of get where libertarians are coming from. It’s difficult to endorse theories where I have to trust the government to distribute wealth appropriately. If the government looks at my income and wants to charge me more tax, then in theory I’d be ok with it, until I find out they don’t plan to increase spending in health or education but instead budget the extra money to pay for more security guards at offshore detention centres or other policies I loathe. Raising taxes is all well and good, but only if the government puts that money into programs that better society. And we all have slightly different views of what would better society.

Which, of course, is where being politically involved comes in. I pay my taxes, and then I vote for the party who I think will do the better job of spending them. And I write letters to my local representatives reiterating the priorities I want them to focus on, and I talk to others about politics and who I’m voting for and why. And then I’m inevitably disappointed by the rest of my country and how they evidently want to spend “my” taxes.

This is such an interesting question.  In principle I'm against charitable deductions, but really I think taxes should be levied only on the upper-middle class and the rich, and there should be very limited deductions for the upper-middle class and none for the rich. People who are struggling to make ends meet shouldn't have to pay taxes at all.  But given the tax structure we currently have, I'm not sure.  Maybe it would be more feasible just to limit the kinds of charitable contributions that are tax-deductible (so not ones to private universities that are already rich, for example). 

On not trusting the government, I get where you're coming from, but democratic governments are far more accountable to the public than any other institution that would be spending money on things. And that's why I think they're the best organ for solving collective problems. We just need to work to make them even more accountable, which we can do with increased political participation. Term limits for every elected office, more competitive elections (in the US through regular competitive primaries), public financing of elections, a one person, one vote election policy, and making voting easier would all make our elected officials way more accountable. Of course they don't want to be accountable, so it's an uphill battle, but it can be done. 

[Sullie06]

On 9/14/2019 at 1:15 PM, Bad Wolf said:

In the 30s, where I grew up, iron ore was discovered, and a steel company moved in. They built housing, mostly duplexes (semi detached) which were 3 bedroom one bath. Many people came from Scotland. They put in a direct train link to Glasgow. The houses still stand, though the steel company is long gone.

Obviously that wouldn't work in a city,with limited space, but it shows what can be done if companies realize that taking care of their workers, might just increase their profits. Loyalty vs throw away employees.

Something very similar happened here with the Endicott Johnson Shoe Company.

"George F Johnson's reign was dominated by his Square Deal version of welfare capitalism that, like progressive movements of the early twentieth century, advocated providing parades and churches and libraries to "uplift" workers. George F's Square Deal consisted of worker benefits even in harsh economic times that were generous and innovative for their time, but also meant to engender worker loyalty and discourage unionizing.

For workers, the Square Deal consisted of a chance to buy E-J built and E-J financed homes, a profit sharing program, health care from factory-funded medical facilities and later (built in 1949) two worker recreational facilities. But the Square Deal was more than an employee benefit program. E-J and the Johnson family also provided or helped to finance two libraries, theaters, a golf course, swimming pools, carousels, parks and food markets, many of which were available to the community without charge." 

And even though EJ is long gone, what they did for our area is still evident today. I actually grew up in an "EJ" home even though my parents didn't work for the company. 

[AtlanticTug]

On 9/14/2019 at 11:02 PM, nausicaa said:

 

I think some of FJ, and many progressives in general-- after the understandable fatigue of dealing with Trump and his supporters-- have begun to dismiss anyone not within their narrow political niche as a homogeneous, unthinking, ill-intentioned blur. I understand that it's easier in a political world that is now hour-to-hour frustration. But doing the hard work of making a good faith attempt to understand others' arguments and discerning nuance demonstrates emotional and intellectual maturity and allows your own arguments to be more persuasive in the end. 

There are so many things to hate about this administration, but I do think we will be dealing for years to come with how Trump has led many progressives to lock themselves into some fucked up ouroboros echo chamber. 

You are doing the same thing here that you accuse other people of doing in your post - lumping a group together as if they are all homogeneous with the same thought pattern.

I consider myself to be a progressive. I've never waivered from that though on paper I would probably be considered a country club Republican. And I know many other progressives who absolutely understand that Trump's core base is a completely different beast than the economically conservative and (mostly) socially agnostic Republicans. Because my clients are mostly very or ultra wealthy, I am well acquainted with the latter group - they generally don't give a shit about gay marriage, who pees in what bathroom or what goes on behind the closed doors of a Planned Parenthood clinic. 

If you are at all a fiscal conservative, you'd be horrified by this administration.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

I have this thing bothering me and would like to hear what you guys have to say.  My Grandnephew was offered a job at Amazon Seattle at a starting salary of $250,000.00 US a year.  I’m just stunned, I mean good for him but wtf!  He writes computer programs, he’s only 25 years old.  What happens to the poor when a City gets “blessed “ with a Company paying these wages?  BTW he turned down the job because of Trump and many other good reasons, he’s staying in Canada.  This whole scenario really upsets me.  Where do the poor go when so many are making these inflated wages and driving up prices?  Gentrification sucks big time.

[JanasTattooParlor]

12 minutes ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

I have this thing bothering me and would like to hear what you guys have to say.  My Grandnephew was offered a job at Amazon Seattle at a starting salary of $250,000.00 US a year.  I’m just stunned, I mean good for him but wtf!  He writes computer programs, he’s only 25 years old.  What happens to the poor when a City gets “blessed “ with a Company paying these wages?  BTW he turned down the job because of Trump and many other good reasons, he’s staying in Canada.  This whole scenario really upsets me.  Where do the poor go when so many are making these inflated wages and driving up prices?  Gentrification sucks big time.

Speaking to the inflated wages piece of this, as someone with friends who are computer programmers in a lower COL area of the US, my friends make easily 100K for their jobs as programmers because they are hard to find, require a lot of specialization of knowing particular programming languages, and must complete difficult computer programming degree programs. So since Seattle is such a high COL area, it really doesn’t surprise me that he would make $250K. That wage pays for the competitiveness of companies needing programmers in this huge technological era, a high COL, and the high degree of knowledge and skill a programmer must have.  

Also, Amazon’s salaries change depending on where in the US you live due to COL. My fiancé applied for a job with Amazon near where we live and for that job here he would make $80K but in NYC, he would be making $150K for the same position. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by JanasTattooParlor
Added more info.

[Cheetah]

It will be interesting to see whether the high wages for those jobs holds up over the next few years.... CS as an undergrad major is growing at a crazy rate.  A FB friend of mine is a CS prof at Cal and I guess their intro CS class this year has 2000 kids.  Yes, two THOUSAND.  My youngest wants to go into CS (he's in 10th grade now) and my middle one (now in 12th) will probably double-major in math and CS although she's more interested in the theory end. 

As far as what happens to the poor (or not even poor)... I'm in the SF Bay area and in one of the more expensive counties here.  People who have normal jobs like teachers, police officers, etc either a) are married to someone in tech, b) commute a long way, or c) inherited property from relatives.  Or I guess there's d) live in a much smaller place than they would anywhere else in the US.  We also have awful traffic (made worse by bad regional planning and the long commutes).  We need more housing but it's an endless loop of .. well, where do you put it where it will have the least effect on traffic and how do you make sure that it's affordable for the people that we want to keep in the community and not just more high-end condos for rich techies.  

 

[DarkAnts]

3 hours ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

I have this thing bothering me and would like to hear what you guys have to say.  My Grandnephew was offered a job at Amazon Seattle at a starting salary of $250,000.00 US a year.  I’m just stunned, I mean good for him but wtf!  He writes computer programs, he’s only 25 years old.  What happens to the poor when a City gets “blessed “ with a Company paying these wages?  BTW he turned down the job because of Trump and many other good reasons, he’s staying in Canada.  This whole scenario really upsets me.  Where do the poor go when so many are making these inflated wages and driving up prices?  Gentrification sucks big time.

The poor live on the streets. There is a growing number of homeless people who have full time jobs. The affordable housing is so limited that they have no other options. 

 

I currently live live at my dads because I don't make enough to rent out a shitty studio, Those go for over $1,000 per month. I am lucky I have the option to live at my dads. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

I spent a lot of time in Seattle in the 80’s and they already had a very visible homeless crisis.  I haven’t been back for many years but I can imagine it’s gotten much worse.  

[AmericanRose]

6 hours ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

I have this thing bothering me and would like to hear what you guys have to say.  My Grandnephew was offered a job at Amazon Seattle at a starting salary of $250,000.00 US a year.  I’m just stunned, I mean good for him but wtf!  He writes computer programs, he’s only 25 years old.  What happens to the poor when a City gets “blessed “ with a Company paying these wages?  BTW he turned down the job because of Trump and many other good reasons, he’s staying in Canada.  This whole scenario really upsets me.  Where do the poor go when so many are making these inflated wages and driving up prices?  Gentrification sucks big time.

South, typically. I work in food service downtown and most of my coworkers live in south Seattle, or ~20 miles north or south of the city. I'm lucky -- I just live 5 miles from our workplace. Yay, affordable housing! Of course, my rent is still over $1000, but at least I can ride the bus and not take ~2 hours to get to/from work.

[Jinder Roles]

@Cleopatra7 I wish I could like your response 100x over. Privilege can really blind people to how violent some policies/ideologies/systems can disenfranchised groups.

Also it’s baffling that anybody could accuse you of existing in an eco chamber or not doing thorough research.

[lumpentheologie]

29 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Also it’s baffling that anybody could accuse you of existing in an eco chamber or not doing thorough research.

This is a great example of bias against the social sciences among conservatives.  Most educated people wouldn't say that climate scientists or evolutionary scientists all exist in an echo chamber and you're just not convinced of the validity of their work. But when a sociologist tries to explain how race and class function in our society suddenly research, field work, and peer review are all just an echo chamber divorced from the real world instead of actual, hard-earned expertise. 

 

[Irishy]

20 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

This is a great example of bias against the social sciences among conservatives.  Most educated people wouldn't say that climate scientists or evolutionary scientists all exist in an echo chamber and you're just not convinced of the validity of their work. But when a sociologist tries to explain how race and class function in our society suddenly research, field work, and peer review are all just an echo chamber divorced from the real world instead of actual, hard-earned expertise. 

 

I think because the theories, (and the facts!) threaten people’s comfort levels. Suddenly we are all Marxist nutters. 

This has been extremely civil unlike discourse you’d see on social media for example, but the cognitive dissonance is clearly present. 

[lumpentheologie]

10 minutes ago, Irishy said:

I think because the theories, (and the facts!) threaten people’s comfort levels. Suddenly we are all Marxist nutters. 

This has been extremely civil unlike discourse you’d see on social media for example, but the cognitive dissonance is clearly present. 

I agree.  Although it was surprising to me to see that kind of anti-intellectualism from someone whose username is a minor character from The Odyssey.  But it's just that widespread. 

[bal maiden]

I'm glad that our more conservative/libertarian members are speaking up, as I don't have a tonne of friends who hold those views (due to my lefty academic echo chamber ? - I don't think academia is an echo chamber, due to rigour and research methods, but certainly I think doing that research tends to move one to the left, based on the outcomes of that research). It's nice to hear from those viewpoints in the wild, without having to apply some kind of apolitical conceptual framework, and just being able to react as a political being rather than an analytical one. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

7 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

I'm glad that our more conservative/libertarian members are speaking up, as I don't have a tonne of friends who hold those views (due to my lefty academic echo chamber ? - I don't think academia is an echo chamber, due to rigour and research methods, but certainly I think doing that research tends to move one to the left, based on the outcomes of that research). It's nice to hear from those viewpoints in the wild, without having to apply some kind of apolitical conceptual framework, and just being able to react as a political being rather than an analytical one. 

Thank you for saying this! I too am happy that we can have an intelligent and civil discussion. While I understand the frustration, the feeling of being misunderstood once again, and I can imagine it burns, especially when you frame it in the context of the bigger picture, the chronic disparity and discrimination between races and classes. But I still think that it's too important to keep having this sort of conversation and the only way to discuss such topics in a meaningful and useful manner is by being civil.

Through the years I have come to respect all the posters involved in this conversation. Even when I don't agree in part or completely with you I have always learnt so much from your perspectives.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

11 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

I'm glad that our more conservative/libertarian members are speaking up, as I don't have a tonne of friends who hold those views (due to my lefty academic echo chamber ? - I don't think academia is an echo chamber, due to rigour and research methods, but certainly I think doing that research tends to move one to the left, based on the outcomes of that research). It's nice to hear from those viewpoints in the wild, without having to apply some kind of apolitical conceptual framework, and just being able to react as a political being rather than an analytical one. 

I wish I were surrounded by an echo chamber. Wait, actually I am, but it is an echo chamber of Fox "news" watching people who think Trump is a little gruff, but he's doing great things other wise.  

I do so love to hear from my parents, "can't you just try to be nice, and nod and smile, even if you don't agree?"  I always respond with, "can't you just TRY to be nice to me for once and nod and smile even if you don't agree?"  My mother will always say "you're missing the point." My dad will say, "stop giving talking points", even if I haven't given talking points. Then I'm a bitch because I wan't playing nice and tell them they are right. ? 

[JanasTattooParlor]

8 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I wish I were surrounded by an echo chamber. Wait, actually I am, but it is an echo chamber of Fox "news" watching people who think Trump is a little gruff, but he's doing great things other wise.  

I do so love to hear from my parents, "can't you just try to be nice, and nod and smile, even if you don't agree?"  I always respond with, "can't you just TRY to be nice to me for once and nod and smile even if you don't agree?"  My mother will always say "you're missing the point." My dad will say, "stop giving talking points", even if I haven't given talking points. Then I'm a bitch because I wan't playing nice and tell them they are right. ? 

Do we have the same parents? Because I have had that same conversation a million times but I’m also reminded that I’m too young to have an accurate opinion and that I’ll understand when I get older (I’m mid-20s and have a Masters degree, which apparently means nothing to them). 

[SassyPants]

19 minutes ago, JanasTattooParlor said:

Do we have the same parents? Because I have had that same conversation a million times but I’m also reminded that I’m too young to have an accurate opinion and that I’ll understand when I get older (I’m mid-20s and have a Masters degree, which apparently means nothing to them). 

Well, there’s 3 of us here with the same parents...and I’m over 60, so and still hearing the same crap.

[EmmieJ]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 6:24 PM, DarkAnts said:

The poor live on the streets. There is a growing number of homeless people who have full time jobs. The affordable housing is so limited that they have no other options. 

 

I currently live live at my dads because I don't make enough to rent out a shitty studio, Those go for over $1,000 per month. I am lucky I have the option to live at my dads. 

I live in the Bay Area and am now unable to work full-time due to a chronic back condition.  I'm fortunate in that I found a job that is just 3 days per week, and that I live with (and rent from) a sibling.  Otherwise, my options would be a) move somewhere where the COL is relatively low or b) rent a room from someone I don't know and it would literally be just a bedroom with kitchen privileges and maybe not even my own bathroom.   We have a family friend in her early 30's, single mom with a young son, who has zero family support.  She busts her ass all the time - working as a care giver, going to school to get an education to hopefully lead to a good career.  She does Lyft and Grub Hub whenever she's got a free moment.  This girl hustles!  and barely gets by.  We always try to pay her for side jobs, like painting a bedroom, or doing some  house cleaning, because she won't just take money to help with the bills. 

The gap between the haves and the have nots is expanding every day.

[Daisy0322]

On 9/17/2019 at 7:51 PM, JanasTattooParlor said:

Do we have the same parents? Because I have had that same conversation a million times but I’m also reminded that I’m too young to have an accurate opinion and that I’ll understand when I get older (I’m mid-20s and have a Masters degree, which apparently means nothing to them). 

Ughhh yes! If I have to hear about how global warming is just apart of the liberal Agenda of lies while my dad wears his trump 2020 socks up to his knees with his damn sandals and jean shorts while my mom nods muttering about how the Democratic Party wants to murder all cows one more time imma lose my shit. If I try to have a logical conversation with them they just smile and laugh like I'm 4 years old talking about Mickey Mouse running for president. I'm 27 years old with a college degree and a family of my own. My MIL may be worse though she likes to go to trump rally's and fb live them while talking about how electrifying the crowd is and cussing out all those genderless snowflakes. In my part of the country it's hard to believe trump won't get re elected. I'm pretty independent but I cannot stand him. I was okay with Obama and Bush wasn't horrible the last president I really really like was Clinton. Unfortunately I was like 8 when he was in Office. 

[JanasTattooParlor]

50 minutes ago, Daisy0322 said:

Ughhh yes! If I have to hear about how global warming is just apart of the liberal Agenda of lies while my dad wears his trump 2020 socks up to his knees with his damn sandals and jean shorts while my mom nods muttering about how the Democratic Party wants to murder all cows one more time imma lose my shit. If I try to have a logical conversation with them they just smile and laugh like I'm 4 years old talking about Mickey Mouse running for president.

I'm with you 1000%! I called my stepmom today and was telling her how my students have gone through the tissues I bought really fast and I need to get more since we are close to allergy/flu season starting. She then turned that into a rant about how I am contributing to the "handout culture and mentality" the younger generation has and how I should expect them to bring in their own tissues and be responsible (I teach high school). When I told her that I never brought my own tissues to school when I was sick she said that I was part of the problem then and was continuing to contribute to creating adults that expect people to do things for them. Anytime I argued with her about how I can't expect my kids to have tissues at home and how the students have been conditioned to expect tissues at school because of their teachers that belong mostly to her generation, she said that I clearly did not understand her point and then claimed that I was being wholly unreasonable. I ended up finally hanging up on her because I knew there was no point in arguing anymore. I'm so glad that I grew past feeling like I was obligated with giving toxic family members the time of day because it felt really good to hang up on her.