Vice documentary on abortion boot camp

[DarkAnts]

So much too unload and it took too much alcohol to make it through this one to write anything intelligent right now. Too much stupidity like abortion is not like the Holocaust but actually it is. 

 

 

[usedbicycle]

Thanks for sharing. I'm a staunch pro-choicer and had an abortion myself in my very early 20s. But I'm trying really hard, in this divided country we live in, to see the other side of the political spectrum and try not to snide on their beliefs. I'm also 14 weeks pregnant and so I know what a fetus looks like at this time, it's pretty big and moves a lot. Killing and removing it would be an inherently violent act, I can't deny that. I don't judge people's shock at the gory nature of mid- to late-term abortion. 

It still doesn't take away the violence of forcing a woman or girl to go through pregnancy and become a parent. It's rough even when the child was desired. It's way too easy to get a woman pregnant without her consent: rape, incest, coercion into sex, refusal to use a condom... If there are 2500 abortions a day, that's 2500 women and girls who got pregnant by a guy who wouldn't wear a condom. That to me is more problematic than the sad consequence of abortion. Where are all these men? Who will hold them accountable? It's the only argument I've found that works with Conservatives: abortion is sad, but so is rape, child neglect, having to give up a baby in adoption, broken homes, being homeless with a baby, being forced to have sex as a young teenager etc. There are no winners in this game, and abortion is a sad necessity.

When I used to work in a public high school, I would urge girls to track their period on an app so they could catch an unwanted pregnancy as early as possible. Abortion is relatively painless and easy the first few weeks, and gets much more difficult physically and emotionally after weeks 6 or 7. That's something people don't talk about. Sometimes liberals make it seem like abortion until birth is totally cool but that's not helping the debate at all. There's obviously a huge difference between a 4-week egg sac and 8 month fetus. 

Anyway, kind of rambling on but I figured I would post anyway...

[formergothardite]

I haven't finished it yet, but that book "Pro-life answers to Pro-choose arguments" would be an interesting read. What I would like to know is since studies show making abortion illegal won't stop abortion and giving out birth control and health care will lower abortion rates, why do they continue to support ideas that don't actually work? If their goal is to keep babies from being aborted, then they should be jumping all over the democratic party since they are supporting programs that lower abortion rates. But they don't. So it seems like they don't actually care about stopping abortion and it is more about trying to hurt women.  

I would like to see one rabid pro-lifer(who is a republican) answer that question. 

 

[Sobeknofret]

6 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I haven't finished it yet, but that book "Pro-life answers to Pro-choose arguments" would be an interesting read. What I would like to know is since studies show making abortion illegal won't stop abortion and giving out birth control and health care will lower abortion rates, why do they continue to support ideas that don't actually work? If their goal is to keep babies from being aborted, then they should be jumping all over the democratic party since they are supporting programs that lower abortion rates. But they don't. So it seems like they don't actually care about stopping abortion and it is more about trying to hurt women.  

I would like to see one rabid pro-lifer(who is a republican) answer that question. 

 

This has always been my response to pro-lifers. What *are* they doing, besides punishing women for their reproductive choices? How are they helping the mothers and children after the baby is born? Do they support paid maternity/paternity leave? Government subsidized child-care? Single-payer health care? Adoption law reform? The answer is always no. I believe the pro-life movement is all about punishing women for their sexual choices and reproductive healthcare choices. Honestly, it makes me ill.  

[formergothardite]

19 minutes ago, Sobeknofret said:

This has always been my response to pro-lifers. What *are* they doing, besides punishing women for their reproductive choices? How are they helping the mothers and children after the baby is born? Do they support paid maternity/paternity leave? Government subsidized child-care? Single-payer health care? Adoption law reform? The answer is always no. I believe the pro-life movement is all about punishing women for their sexual choices and reproductive healthcare choices. Honestly, it makes me ill.  

The ones who come here(which hasn't been for some time) always stomp off in a huff rather than answer questions like these. The entire pro-life movement is a political scam to help keep the GOP in power. It is something for them to screech over and use to rile up voters by calling liberals baby killers. They don't want to have an actual discussion on how to lower abortion rates. 

[SilverBeach]

2 hours ago, usedbicycle said:

Killing and removing it would be an inherently violent act,

Wow. Such rhetoric.

 

2 hours ago, usedbicycle said:

Abortion is relatively painless and easy the first few weeks, and gets much more difficult physically and emotionally after weeks 6 or 7. That's something people don't talk about. Sometimes liberals make it seem like abortion until birth is totally cool but that's not helping the debate at all.

I have seen literally zero people saying that abortion until birth is totally cool. You can only speak for yourself, but the first trimester is commonly without restriction for a reason. Many women don't know they are pregnant at 6 or 7 weeks, and some never have emotional difficulty with the procedure.

Telling use of the label "liberal". What does that have to do with anything? 

[bal maiden]

I really feel like pro choice people need to take note of what is going on in this documentary. Where are our bootcamps, where are our scholarships? We are sleepwalking into losing our rights when the opposition is this mobilized and well equipped. 

[precious blessing]

58 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

I really feel like pro choice people need to take note of what is going on in this documentary. Where are our bootcamps, where are our scholarships? We are sleepwalking into losing our rights when the opposition is this mobilized and well equipped. 

I personally disagree with this sentiment - hopefully someone else will articulate better than I'm about to try to. These students sought out this "bootcamp," instead of looking for objectionable sources of information. They opted for something that reinforced the ideas they already held. To them, being pro-life feels just as reasonable as we who are pro-choice feel. It is important to note their behavior - immediately telling someone their opinion is wrong and spewing questionable facts and statistics isn't going to endear yourself to them. Making relaxed, logical arguments is much more convincing than being aggressive with someone. I do feel that pro-life people have it easier than pro-choice people when "recruiting;" I think that ultimately pro-life people appeal to someone's feelings whereas pro-life people appeal to reason... faith in and of itself isn't reasonable. I do think pro-choice individuals do need to mobilize... but everything remotely political seems so polarized nowadays. We aren't going to change the minds of pro-lifers who have already decided they're right. All that matters to them is a baby is a baby is a baby is a zygote is a baby, not any of the subsequent questions they refuse to answer or acknowledge.

I don't think ANYONE should receive a scholarship or any pats on the back for their beliefs. I think "camps" like this are just an echo-chamber and don't do anyone any good. Unsettling that something like this exists, indeed.

When did everyone start picking and choosing what facts they would acknowledge and which ones didn't fit their agenda? I know it was always a thing, but as a young adult, I find my peers' attitudes - conservative or liberal - very disheartening.

Edited August 14, 2019 by precious blessing
sorry for saying shit that everyone already knows

[smittykins]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

haven't finished it yet, but that book "Pro-life answers to Pro-choose arguments" would be an interesting read.

I wonder if that’s the same one I read during my fundie-lite days.  IIRC, the only argument they didn’t address directly was “Only healthy white newborns get adopted.”

[formergothardite]

I do think we need  to also train our teens on how to respond to the pro-life. Pro-lifers depend on people being taken off guard and not knowing how to respond. They aren't happy when run into someone who actually knows the facts and can argue back. 

[AliceInFundyland]

The argument that the unborn are comparable to the living in regards to the Holocaust is so fucking insane.

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITH FULLY DEVELOPED LIVES ARE NOT THE SAME AS UNDEVELOPED EGG SACS EMBRYOS AND FETUSES. NO NO NO. A THOUSAND TIMES NO. NOT IN A MILLION YEARS NO.

Edited August 14, 2019 by AliceInFundyland

[DarkAnts]

7 hours ago, usedbicycle said:

Thanks for sharing. I'm a staunch pro-choicer and had an abortion myself in my very early 20s. But I'm trying really hard, in this divided country we live in, to see the other side of the political spectrum and try not to snide on their beliefs. I'm also 14 weeks pregnant and so I know what a fetus looks like at this time, it's pretty big and moves a lot. Killing and removing it would be an inherently violent act, I can't deny that. I don't judge people's shock at the gory nature of mid- to late-term abortion. 

It still doesn't take away the violence of forcing a woman or girl to go through pregnancy and become a parent. It's rough even when the child was desired. It's way too easy to get a woman pregnant without her consent: rape, incest, coercion into sex, refusal to use a condom... If there are 2500 abortions a day, that's 2500 women and girls who got pregnant by a guy who wouldn't wear a condom. That to me is more problematic than the sad consequence of abortion. Where are all these men? Who will hold them accountable? It's the only argument I've found that works with Conservatives: abortion is sad, but so is rape, child neglect, having to give up a baby in adoption, broken homes, being homeless with a baby, being forced to have sex as a young teenager etc. There are no winners in this game, and abortion is a sad necessity.

When I used to work in a public high school, I would urge girls to track their period on an app so they could catch an unwanted pregnancy as early as possible. Abortion is relatively painless and easy the first few weeks, and gets much more difficult physically and emotionally after weeks 6 or 7. That's something people don't talk about. Sometimes liberals make it seem like abortion until birth is totally cool but that's not helping the debate at all. There's obviously a huge difference between a 4-week egg sac and 8 month fetus. 

Anyway, kind of rambling on but I figured I would post anyway...

I have NEVER heard anyone say that they are ok late term abortion of a healthy fetus. All late term abortion are preformed for two reasons. 1) The fetus is not compatible with life. 2) The mothers life is in jeopardy. Late term abortions are always traumatic for the women. They always involve a wanted pregnancy. They are never done as a form of birth control.

Edited August 14, 2019 by DarkAnts

[nelliebelle1197]

Forced birthers. These people are not pro-life and I refuse to use that term for them until they follow their agenda with policy that promotes good things for the living.

[Aine]

5 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Wow. Such rhetoric.

 

I have seen literally zero people saying that abortion until birth is totally cool. You can only speak for yourself, but the first trimester is commonly without restriction for a reason. Many women don't know they are pregnant at 6 or 7 weeks, and some never have emotional difficulty with the procedure.

Telling use of the label "liberal". What does that have to do with anything? 

Wow. Way to shame and completely cherry-pick @usedbicycle's statements out of the context of her entire post.

There is nothing wrong with being 'staunchly pro-choice', as @usedbicycle stated in her first line she was, and also understanding that abortion is a traumatic thing for many people who choose to have one and the ethical considerations multiply for many people as a pregnancy progresses. Depending on the area of the country you live in, if you want to minimize a girl/woman's chances of being traumatized when they choose to terminate a pregnancy then you want to encourage them to know their bodies and be able to get one before the state forces you to watch an ultrasound and listen to a heartbeat. Especially because many of the states with the most stringent and restrictive abortion laws engaging in emotionally manipulative tactics (not the providers themselves but state legislators) also have terrible sex-ed and reproductive health education programs, such as abstinence only and they don't learn about their bodies as women. I have many friends who were raised here in MS that were led to believe they couldn't get pregnant if they were 'on top' because 'gravity' and these friends of mine (since educated) have high school friends who still are agape that they got pregnant even though they were "always on top" in their 20s and 30s. 

Knowing your cycle and even if you're irregular, knowing when you might be the typical definition of 'late' if you've had sexual intercourse, can help get a timely pregnancy test and not have to endure more trauma when making a tough decision.

Sure, maybe she misspoke with the "abortion until birth" line but any of us with knowledge absolutely know that no doctor in this country would perform an abortion later than when a normally developing fetus is viable without a compelling medical reason involving the life of the fetus post-birth, the life of the mother, or both.

@usedbicycle clearly stated that she may be a little "rambling" (I'd just say her current situation is understandably making her more subjective right now) because she is currently 14 weeks pregnant. I have had an abortion at 14 yrs old, a pregnancy resulting from a rape, and I caught it much later than I would have or could have if I didn't keep living in hope that my periods were "just irregular". I don't regret my decision at all but it still makes me sad that I had to make it. At 21, I found out I was pregnant and it was unplanned and all kinds of inconvenient and I surprised even myself when I made the decision to keep that baby. I loved that little girl from the moment I knew she existed and I felt an emotional connection (despite days of crying after finding out) from the moment I knew she was there. I am grateful I had the means, however meagre, and a supportive partner so I could make the decision to continue the pregnancy because if I didn't, I don't know what I'd have done. Every time I looked at that fetus in my uterus, my heart burst with happiness. It made recalling my previous abortion quite painful even though I'd literally die for the right for women to make their choices about their body and life. I went through moments of regret or wondering what made this fetus inside of me different from the one before. Pregnancy does weird and emotional things to you. When I break it down rationally, I can see differences but when I was pregnant and could feel kicking and hear heartbeats and see that little thing inside me moving- I wasn't rational and it was difficult to see what was different from a personal perspective in that moment. I was never "anti-choice" but I struggled with those thoughts when I was pregnant with my daughter.

My daughter was stillborn and I think of her daily. There is no fundamental difference as to why one fetus was loved and the other I couldn't bare to have in my body as far as the existence of those fetuses went. Differences in situation, who fathered them and what situation etc- yes. But I got to make a choice and no one gets to lecture me on the thoughts and doubts and emotions I have had throughout my life as a woman able to bare to children because I respect other women's choices and always have.

It sounds like @usedbicycle also respects choice. She is a staunch pro-choice woman. It doesn't mean you don't get to voice your personal experiences and thoughts playing around in your head when you're pregnant with a wanted fetus/baby you choose and love even when it's a literal parasite of your body and not viable without you and how that compares to a fetus you chose not to continue a pregnancy with. That does not mean you're shaming women who choose to continue their pregnancy or who believe different to you. I personally will never back down on my conviction that every woman gets to make a personal choice with their body, and that should mean also keeping a pregnancy they want and not worrying about the financial downward spiral many single mothers embark on in the US with little safety net compared to other developed nations.

Just because you're pro-choice doesn't mean you're anti-life or you don't struggle with the concept of abortion. It just means you believe that each individual woman should have the freedom to come to her own decision in these murky waters and she should be given the help she needs to either continue the pregnancy if she chooses or end it.
 

[SilverBeach]

Never mind.

Edited August 15, 2019 by SilverBeach

[SilverBeach]

Just now, Aine said:

Wow. Way to shame and completely cherry-pick @usedbicycle's statements out of the context of her entire post.

There is nothing wrong with being 'staunchly pro-choice', as @usedbicycle stated in her first line she was, and also understanding that abortion is a traumatic thing for many people who choose to have one and the ethical considerations multiply for many people as a pregnancy progresses. Depending on the area of the country you live in, if you want to minimize a girl/woman's chances of being traumatized when they choose to terminate a pregnancy then you want to encourage them to know their bodies and be able to get one before the state forces you to watch an ultrasound and listen to a heartbeat. Especially because many of the states with the most stringent and restrictive abortion laws engaging in emotionally manipulative tactics (not the providers themselves but state legislators) also have terrible sex-ed and reproductive health education programs, such as abstinence only and they don't learn about their bodies as women. I have many friends who were raised here in MS that were led to believe they couldn't get pregnant if they were 'on top' because 'gravity' and these friends of mine (since educated) have high school friends who still are agape that they got pregnant even though they were "always on top" in their 20s and 30s. 

Knowing your cycle and even if you're irregular, knowing when you might be the typical definition of 'late' if you've had sexual intercourse, can help get a timely pregnancy test and not have to endure more trauma when making a tough decision.

Sure, maybe she misspoke with the "abortion until birth" line but any of us with knowledge absolutely know that no doctor in this country would perform an abortion later than when a normally developing fetus is viable without a compelling medical reason involving the life of the fetus post-birth, the life of the mother, or both.

@usedbicycle clearly stated that she may be a little "rambling" (I'd just say her current situation is understandably making her more subjective right now) because she is currently 14 weeks pregnant. I have had an abortion at 14 yrs old, a pregnancy resulting from a rape, and I caught it much later than I would have or could have if I didn't keep living in hope that my periods were "just irregular". I don't regret my decision at all but it still makes me sad that I had to make it. At 21, I found out I was pregnant and it was unplanned and all kinds of inconvenient and I surprised even myself when I made the decision to keep that baby. I loved that little girl from the moment I knew she existed and I felt an emotional connection (despite days of crying after finding out) from the moment I knew she was there. I am grateful I had the means, however meagre, and a supportive partner so I could make the decision to continue the pregnancy because if I didn't, I don't know what I'd have done. Every time I looked at that fetus in my uterus, my heart burst with happiness. It made recalling my previous abortion quite painful even though I'd literally die for the right for women to make their choices about their body and life. I went through moments of regret or wondering what made this fetus inside of me different from the one before. Pregnancy does weird and emotional things to you. When I break it down rationally, I can see differences but when I was pregnant and could feel kicking and hear heartbeats and see that little thing inside me moving- I wasn't rational and it was difficult to see what was different from a personal perspective in that moment. I was never "anti-choice" but I struggled with those thoughts when I was pregnant with my daughter.

My daughter was stillborn and I think of her daily. There is no fundamental difference as to why one fetus was loved and the other I couldn't bare to have in my body as far as the existence of those fetuses went. Differences in situation, who fathered them and what situation etc- yes. But I got to make a choice and no one gets to lecture me on the thoughts and doubts and emotions I have had throughout my life as a woman able to bare to children because I respect other women's choices and always have.

It sounds like @usedbicycle also respects choice. She is a staunch pro-choice woman. It doesn't mean you don't get to voice your personal experiences and thoughts playing around in your head when you're pregnant with a wanted fetus/baby you choose and love even when it's a literal parasite of your body and not viable without you and how that compares to a fetus you chose not to continue a pregnancy with. That does not mean you're shaming women who choose to continue their pregnancy or who believe different to you. I personally will never back down on my conviction that every woman gets to make a personal choice with their body, and that should mean also keeping a pregnancy they want and not worrying about the financial downward spiral many single mothers embark on in the US with little safety net compared to other developed nations.

Just because you're pro-choice doesn't mean you're anti-life or you don't struggle with the concept of abortion. It just means you believe that each individual woman should have the freedom to come to her own decision in these murky waters and she should be given the help she needs to either continue the pregnancy if she chooses or end it.
 

Please take it down a notch. Perhaps you should let used bicycle defend herself. She said she was pro-choice, but some of the rhetoric sounded very anti-choice to me.

Maybe you should read some of my recent posts where I criticize abortion providers for not always taking the time to make sure that women having the procedure are doing it free from coercion, as that was not my experience. And I am stauchly pro-choice. I was shaming no one, because the words said were indeed inflammatory to me and specific to one person's experience and opinion. You don't get to lecture me, I've had an abortion. My abortion was traumatic, but I'm glad that I was not forced to carry a pregnancy.  I do not idealize abortion and realize the complexities it presents in the lives of women it affects. 

I'm not sure why you came out of relative lurkdom to attack me with such a wall of text, and I will admit I did not read it all.   I am very sorry for your loss. Abortion is a loaded topic and should really only be discussed in no holds barred. I am also as liberal as they come, but that has nothing to do with my stand on abortion. I don't know anyone who is anti-life. 

You are very much misunderstanding me though. If we are all pro-choice, why are we arguing? 

[bal maiden]

[Aine]

5 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Please take it down a notch. Perhaps you should let used bicycle defend herself. She said she was pro-choice, but some of the rhetoric sounded very anti-choice to me.

Maybe you should read some of my recent posts where I criticize abortion providers for not always taking the time to make sure that women having the procedure are doing it free from coercion, as that was not my experience. And I am stauchly pro-choice. I was shaming no one, because the words said were indeed inflammatory to me and specific to one person's experience and opinion. You don't get to lecture me, I've had an abortion. My abortion was traumatic, but I'm glad that I was not forced to carry a pregnancy.  I do not idealize abortion and realize the complexities it presents in the lives of women it affects. 

I'm not sure why you came out of relative lurkdom to attack me with such a wall of text, and I will admit I did not read it all.   I am very sorry for your loss. Abortion is a loaded topic and should really only be discussed in no holds barred. I am also as liberal as they come, but that has nothing to do with my stand on abortion. I don't know anyone who is anti-life. 

You are very much misunderstanding me though. If we are all pro-choice, why are we arguing? 

I didn't come out of "relative lurkdom" to "attack" you. I've been active on a number of threads the past few days because I've had some time to read FreeJinger. This was a newish thread, I'd tried to watch the documentary when it came up on my recommendations and I lasted about 2 minutes before realizing it wasn't my 'thing', so I thought I'd click the thread and see what people were saying. That's what a forum is for, right? I don't actually sit around and read thread after thread and never respond. Did it for a little while way at the beginning but haven't done that in years. If I'm on here, there is an almost 100% chance I'm reacting to or replying to posts if I think I have something to add.

You started your post with

12 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Wow. Such rhetoric.

Hence why I started my post with some irony of the "Wow." because you also jumped to a number of conclusions in your post.

I'm sure the poster can "speak for herself" but I agreed with many of her  statements, or at the very least, I related to them when I thought back to how I related to some of her statements when I was pregnant with my daughter after also having an abortion.

I wasn't attacking, nor was I speaking for that poster specifically, but I read your post in that moment as slamming someone who said in her first line she was "staunchly pro-choice".

You finished your last post with if we are all pro-choice, then why attack each other, and I read your post as an attack on someone voicing thoughts that were not anti-choice but a human being working through some big questions and feelings I could relate to.

I'm not saying you were attacking- it is how I read it on the first read ?‍♀️

I don't think it's wrong to reply when I've always gone through spurts of activity when I have the time to do so and I relate to a lot of things in a post, even if I misinterpreted your intent. I never insinuated you didn't have a right to reply or voice your opinion on this. I didn't realize this was a website  in which I needed post counts to legitimately reply or how often you can read the forums matters, especially coming out of a period of time when life gets overwhelmingly busy. I'll keep it in mind. But it was nothing personal against you. I was not 'lurking' and "coming out of lurkdom" just to "attack you".