Have known the Botkins and the CKC groups for years, Ask me anything

[ConfessionsOfABotkinite]

Hey friends,

I've known the Botkin's and attended CKC for years and I finally want to talk about my story. I don't want to get into too specific detail because of friend connections that I and my parents still have around the community, but I will talk about the crazy things I've heard and had to endure the last few years. Me and my family finally left within the past 2 years, and now we are happily attending another church. I also have some friend connections to T-Rex Arms, and know a little about the business and stuff.

I also know a lot of stuff about the Phillips as well, as my mom was close to Beall and I was semi close to the kids.

Please don't ask personal questions about myself or my family, I want us to remain anonymous. 

Ask me anything! 

[unsafetydancer]

Do you think any of the Botkin daughters will ever leave? I admit I've only skim read threads on them but from what I gather they are my age-ish and considered "old" for SAHDs. I kinda hope at least one of them eventually gets a somewhat normal life.

[luv2laugh]

Have you talked to @Curious or @Destiny to confirm? You can private message them and it will be confidential. 

[Palimpsest]

Hi, and welcome to Free Jinger, @ConfessionsOfABotkinite.   Very interesting connections. 

And congratulations on getting out CKC.  Best wishes for your recovery.  I understand why you need to be careful to protect your identity.

We have a few other VF survivors here and there are a couple of other Botkin threads going on at the moment on Quiverful of Snark, if you are interested.  Here's one. 

Unfortunately over the years we have had a few trolls claiming insider knowledge, so we usually recommend that people with insider information get verified by @Curious. 

She will keep your identity confidential and verification is recommended and not required.

It is nothing personal, just that we have been burned by trolls before and verification by Curious gives insiders more credibility.

[ConfessionsOfABotkinite]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Hi, and welcome to Free Jinger, @ConfessionsOfABotkinite.   Very interesting connections. 

And congratulations on getting out CKC.  Best wishes for your recovery.  I understand why you need to be careful to protect your identity.

We have a few other VF survivors here and there are a couple of other Botkin threads going on at the moment on Quiverful of Snark, if you are interested.  Here's one. 

Unfortunately over the years we have had a few trolls claiming insider knowledge, so we usually recommend that people with insider information get verified by @Curious. 

She will keep your identity confidential and verification is recommended and not required.

It is nothing personal, just that we have been burned by trolls before and verification by Curious gives insiders more credibility.

 

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Have you talked to @Curious or @Destiny to confirm? You can private message them and it will be confidential. 

Thanks, I sent them both a message and I'll respond to any questions people might have when I've been verified by them.

[MamaJunebug]

Thanks for being here! Welcome.

Victoria Botkin - is she downtrodden? Queenly matriarch? Helen Wheels? I remember when she appeared to need dental work and rarely smiled candidly for photos. Is she an afterthought or is it more likely the family just did not have the resources for her needed work for a while?

 

 

[Destiny]

5 hours ago, ConfessionsOfABotkinite said:

Thanks, I sent them both a message and I'll respond to any questions people might have when I've been verified by them.

Just FYI, that’s typically a @curious thing, and she’s distracted by real life at the moment.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Destiny

[fluffy]

Welcome! I'm so glad you and your mother are free from CKC. I look forward to reading about your experiences. Thanks for shedding light on darkness. 

[Marian the Librarian]

Adding my warm welcome, @ConfessionsOfABotkinite - I discovered this thread by happy accident (I very rarely stray from "Quiver Full of Snark") and this feels like Christmas in August! The Botkins and DPIAT were my gateway fundies.

I have many questions, but the one floating to the surface first: have you observed *any* attitude shifts in Geoff and his clan over the time you've known them - for example, would their collective and/or individual reaction(s) to something like Josh Harris' recent announcements be different today than they would have been, say, ten years ago?

Mods: may I request that this thread be moved to QFOS? I think it would receive more well-deserved visibility there. Thank you! 

[VVV]

Welcome!

I am curious about the Botkins because of indirect connections to Audri Botkin (I have never met her but I have met at least one of her previous cello teachers). Audri and her husband--Benjamin?--are they still deeply steeped in the kool-aid or are they seeing their way out? 

[nickelodeon]

Where in the world is Doug?? Or, rather, how are the people around you reacting to Doug’s new business venture photographing burlesque dancers? Is he still present in his old VF social circles or has he cut his remaining ties?

[ConfessionsOfABotkinite]

On 7/30/2019 at 2:06 PM, unsafetydancer said:

Do you think any of the Botkin daughters will ever leave? I admit I've only skim read threads on them but from what I gather they are my age-ish and considered "old" for SAHDs. I kinda hope at least one of them eventually gets a somewhat normal life.

No, I don't think they will. They work on T-Rex Arms stuff for Lucas and take care of all the grandkids that live in their "compound". I highly doubt they will get married and leave. I think they are late 20s - early 30s by now?  

On 7/30/2019 at 6:23 PM, MamaJunebug said:

Thanks for being here! Welcome.

Victoria Botkin - is she downtrodden? Queenly matriarch? Helen Wheels? I remember when she appeared to need dental work and rarely smiled candidly for photos. Is she an afterthought or is it more likely the family just did not have the resources for her needed work for a while?

 

 

Mrs. Botkin was always someone who was much loved by the church and was kind and loving in return. She always blindly followed Geoff because of the "women were supposed to be kind and loving to their husbands and agree with everything they said". I always liked her, but she was fully committed to Geoff. 

2 hours ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Adding my warm welcome, @ConfessionsOfABotkinite - I discovered this thread by happy accident (I very rarely stray from "Quiver Full of Snark") and this feels like Christmas in August! The Botkins and DPIAT were my gateway fundies.

I have many questions, but the one floating to the surface first: have you observed *any* attitude shifts in Geoff and his clan over the time you've known them - for example, would their collective and/or individual reaction(s) to something like Josh Harris' recent announcements be different today than they would have been, say, ten years ago?

Mods: may I request that this thread be moved to QFOS? I think it would receive more well-deserved visibility there. Thank you! 

Glad you found it! They have changed a little, (I'm sure they will still peg Josh as a heathen and the church will do accordingly) but the people have changed quite a bit. For example, when the church started, everyone was the "model homeschoolers" but style and what music and movies they watch have changed. Lucas has a twitch channel now, and I know that would have been highly frowned upon back a few years ago. Most people that don't agree with them have just left, and I have a few stories about that as well if anyone wants to hear.

The culture softened a bit when I was there but they will still hate on lgbtq+ people and Wicked Disney or anything remotely liberal. But sermons about ISIS and asking to wash your hands before entering the church when the ebola scare was happening is long gone. The sermons are now mostly the Bible and what it teaches, instead of personal opinion.

The Tuckers, (Jonathen Tucker is the other elder) pushed for more "normal" music, (Gettys, traditional Baptist songs, etc) but a couple of families thought that would be too "worldly" so nothing came of that.

Sorry for my long answer, but there's a lot that came pouring out ?.

1 hour ago, VVV said:

Welcome!

I am curious about the Botkins because of indirect connections to Audri Botkin (I have never met her but I have met at least one of her previous cello teachers). Audri and her husband--Benjamin?--are they still deeply steeped in the kool-aid or are they seeing their way out? 

Ben and Audri left finally left the church about 5-6 months ago! That was so big, I think people at CKC don't like to talk about it lol because if a son of the Botkins left, things must wrong in that place. So people just ignore it. I heard that he does not work at T-Rex Arms anymore, and maybe they were looking to move out of the valley. Here's a handy map for people that do not know what the "valley" is. It's basically a compound of Botkins. Lucas lives off site somewhere, I'm not sure where though. 

41 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

Where in the world is Doug?? Or, rather, how are the people around you reacting to Doug’s new business venture photographing burlesque dancers? Is he still present in his old VF social circles or has he cut his remaining ties?

Doug hasn't been talked about since the news broke, it's like a curse word, and they Botkins have preached heavily about gossip and slander. No one has said anything about the dancers, I found that out after we left. There's still people outside CKC that have left that keep in touch with Beall and the kids, but I think it's discouraged in the church. They were about as bad as Doug in the Botkins eyes.

[Marian the Librarian]

Thank you - and absolutely no need to apologize for verbosity, you can share as much as you feel comfortable with! That aerial shot of the compound is so informative. So Ben and Audri live across the street from Geoff, but left Christ the King church - that must make for some interesting times! Based on what I've read here on FJ, it sounds like Audri doesn't hold with some aspects of her in-laws' thinking (corporal punishment comes specifically to mind).

I'm curious where Isaac and Heidi fit into the scheme of things. I know Isaac works at TRex Arms - do they also live inside the force field?

I've listened to a number of Geoff's sermons on Sermon Audio. He has an uncanny ability to talk for a very long time while saying very little - I'm wondering how his bloviations are perceived by his flock.

[Escapefromfundiedom]

I haven’t been here in years but I’m interested to hear your story. My husband always asks why I’m so interested in this stuff (especially when it inevitably comes crashing down)...I just tell him...it could have been my life. 

 

Welcome aboard! And best of luck with your journey out of that world. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

That’s interesting about Ben and Audri left. I’ve thought for awhile now that his Instagram looks very worldly. They still seem very religious. But he watches and references a lot of worldly movies.

[ConfessionsOfABotkinite]

31 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That’s interesting about Ben and Audri left. I’ve thought for awhile now that his Instagram looks very worldly. They still seem very religious. But he watches and references a lot of worldly movies.

Yeah, he watches Star Wars and all sorts of things. I remember people were surprised when they were the first Botkin family to have a “evil” Christmas tree. All of the Botkins do it now, so in a way they have changed for the better? But not really that much. 

33 minutes ago, Escapefromfundiedom said:

I haven’t been here in years but I’m interested to hear your story. My husband always asks why I’m so interested in this stuff (especially when it inevitably comes crashing down)...I just tell him...it could have been my life. 

 

Welcome aboard! And best of luck with your journey out of that world. 

Thank you! I’m glad I’m able to share my stories and help other people steer clear of everything Botkin. 

34 minutes ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Thank you - and absolutely no need to apologize for verbosity, you can share as much as you feel comfortable with! That aerial shot of the compound is so informative. So Ben and Audri live across the street from Geoff, but left Christ the King church - that must make for some interesting times! Based on what I've read here on FJ, it sounds like Audri doesn't hold with some aspects of her in-laws' thinking (corporal punishment comes specifically to mind).

I'm curious where Isaac and Heidi fit into the scheme of things. I know Isaac works at TRex Arms - do they also live inside the force field?

I've listened to a number of Geoff's sermons on Sermon Audio. He has an uncanny ability to talk for a very long time while saying very little - I'm wondering how his bloviations are perceived by his flock.

Oh no, Audri does not believe all the rhetoric that her father-in-law believes... she believes a lot closer to what the her parents (Verniers) believe. I don’t know to what extent, but I’m thinking she married into the botkins because of the wonderful things they said... and then she realized that things were not as she hoped. About 1-2 years ago, an email  accidentally got sent out to some men in the church about how one member of the church was “hardly holding it together” and Ben was “not in a place to lead”. The email got leaked and I’ll try to find it and post it. 
 

Isaac and Heidi live about 15-20 min away, I really never interacted with him a lot, but I know he watches worldly movies and stuff like that. He does a lot of graphic design for T-Rex Arms. 
 

Pretty much everyone just believes everything that comes out of Geoff’s mouth, and the people I’ve talked too don’t listen to many sermons outside his sphere of influence.  

[DomWackTroll]

Thanks so much for this information!

I am interested to know what you think of Beall Phillips. What was her personality like when you knew her? Was she as submissive as Victoria Botkin?

Also, what about the Phillips' kids? Have any of them strayed far from the path when it comes to religion or politics (not that Doug really gives a crap anymore)? We know that Joshua is still very conservative, but what about Justice? Jubilee? Faith? 

[Marian the Librarian]

A few random questions and thoughts, in no particular order -

- Has anyone in CKC circles gone so far as to move from the "model homeschooler" model to sending their kids to public school?

- Yes, I'd be interested in knowing the stories you reference above about individuals/familes who left, to whatever degree you feel comfortable sharing; ditto the email.

- Over the decade or so I've been following the Botkins, I've observed that Geoff leapfrogs regularly from one "cause du jour" to the next - I believe with an eye, always, toward financial gain: declaring Isaac the future Prime Minister of New Zealand; marketing the family's wares via Vision Forum; the book of definitive "guy-girl" relationship advice by the eternally single A-S and E; and now, Lucas' TRex Arms company. Is it Geoff's expectation that the Botkin offspring financially support their parents? (The phrases "The Family Economy" and "The 200-year Plan" are like fingernails on a chalkboard, IMNSHO.)

- And, I'm really glad you and your family are in a happy church situation now. ?

[VVV]

7 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That’s interesting about Ben and Audri left. I’ve thought for awhile now that his Instagram looks very worldly. They still seem very religious. But he watches and references a lot of worldly movies.

I had never looked at his instagram before today. I would love to know his qualifications for teaching a film scoring class. Did he go to conservatory? Study composition privately with someone qualified? Even Beethoven took composition lessons from Haydn. Also, he talks about his love for symphony orchestra music yet it seems all of his composing is done for virtual (fake) instruments....no orchestra there, and no employment for the musicians who actually keep symphonic music alive. Pretty ironic considering he married a cellist (albeit one whose training stopped after high school AFAIK).

Sorry for the off-topic rant but composers who do everything on the synthesizer--especially music for some kind of Joshua Bell tribute, WTAF--piss me off. And no, the virtual orchestra does not sound like the real thing.

 

Edited August 2, 2019 by VVV

[Marian the Librarian]

7 minutes ago, VVV said:

I had never looked at his instagram before today. I would love to know his qualifications for teaching a film scoring class. Did he go to conservatory? Study composition privately with someone qualified? Even Beethoven took composition lessons from Haydn. Also, he talks about his love for symphony orchestra music yet it seems all of his composing is done for virtual (fake) instruments....no orchestra there, and no employment for the musicians who actually keep symphonic music alive. Pretty ironic considering he married a cellist (albeit one whose training stopped after high school AFAIK).

Sorry for the off-topic rant but composers who do everything on the synthesizer--especially music for some kind of Joshua Bell tribute, WTAF--piss me off. And no, the virtual orchestra does not sound like the real thing.

 

I couldn't agree more! (Said the spouse of a professional musician.)

[Monstrous Black Sheep]

Gosh I haven't been to CKC since 2017 when my then-boyfriend (who was once an attendee if not a member) and I visited after the Lynden WWII event.

Following this thread. I'm an ex-vision forum kid.

[ConfessionsOfABotkinite]

6 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

Thanks so much for this information!

I am interested to know what you think of Beall Phillips. What was her personality like when you knew her? Was she as submissive as Victoria Botkin?

Also, what about the Phillips' kids? Have any of them strayed far from the path when it comes to religion or politics (not that Doug really gives a crap anymore)? We know that Joshua is still very conservative, but what about Justice? Jubilee? Faith? 

I feel like Beall was more independent then Victoria, but she still followed Doug's lead with whatever he said. She had to have the "meek and submissive" wife act down because Doug was a type of celebrity to all of the VF crowd. There was times she let her facade fall down, one time at the Titanic conference, there was a cruise that all the donors go to go on, but Lourdes was also able to come along. My mom noticed that Beall just had this look about here when Doug was talking about Lourdes on the ship. She told my dad, but they didn't think anything of it until after the news broke. I'll add a photo from that night, you can kinda see it a little bit.

I haven't talked to the Phillips kids in a while, but I do know they have changed quite a bit out of the "sheltered homeschooler" mold. Last I talked to them, they were fully immersed in pop culture. I think the older girls still travel a lot with WWII vets, but I'm not sure about the younger kids.

 

1 hour ago, VVV said:

I had never looked at his instagram before today. I would love to know his qualifications for teaching a film scoring class. Did he go to conservatory? Study composition privately with someone qualified? Even Beethoven took composition lessons from Haydn. Also, he talks about his love for symphony orchestra music yet it seems all of his composing is done for virtual (fake) instruments....no orchestra there, and no employment for the musicians who actually keep symphonic music alive. Pretty ironic considering he married a cellist (albeit one whose training stopped after high school AFAIK).

Sorry for the off-topic rant but composers who do everything on the synthesizer--especially music for some kind of Joshua Bell tribute, WTAF--piss me off. And no, the virtual orchestra does not sound like the real thing.

 

I'm really not sure, I think he was self taught? I know the Geoff really forced his kids to create their own businesses (there's been some videos that they produced and sold on VF and WC). 

28 minutes ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

Gosh I haven't been to CKC since 2017 when my then-boyfriend (who was once an attendee if not a member) and I visited after the Lynden WWII event.

Following this thread. I'm an ex-vision forum kid.

Oh wow! I'm sure we met at some time, we were still attended at that time and most of CKC was involved in RWWII until the Courters left and then people were silently discourged from helping because Geoff and Anthony Courter had some fights over theology and what-not. I noticed the VF thread and look forward to reading more about your experience

[acheronbeach]

8 hours ago, ConfessionsOfABotkinite said:

No, I don't think they will. They work on T-Rex Arms stuff for Lucas and take care of all the grandkids that live in their "compound". I highly doubt they will get married and leave. I think they are late 20s - early 30s by now?  

Mrs. Botkin was always someone who was much loved by the church and was kind and loving in return. She always blindly followed Geoff because of the "women were supposed to be kind and loving to their husbands and agree with everything they said". I always liked her, but she was fully committed to Geoff. 

Glad you found it! They have changed a little, (I'm sure they will still peg Josh as a heathen and the church will do accordingly) but the people have changed quite a bit. For example, when the church started, everyone was the "model homeschoolers" but style and what music and movies they watch have changed. Lucas has a twitch channel now, and I know that would have been highly frowned upon back a few years ago. Most people that don't agree with them have just left, and I have a few stories about that as well if anyone wants to hear.

The culture softened a bit when I was there but they will still hate on lgbtq+ people and Wicked Disney or anything remotely liberal. But sermons about ISIS and asking to wash your hands before entering the church when the ebola scare was happening is long gone. The sermons are now mostly the Bible and what it teaches, instead of personal opinion.

The Tuckers, (Jonathen Tucker is the other elder) pushed for more "normal" music, (Gettys, traditional Baptist songs, etc) but a couple of families thought that would be too "worldly" so nothing came of that.

Sorry for my long answer, but there's a lot that came pouring out ?.

Ben and Audri left finally left the church about 5-6 months ago! That was so big, I think people at CKC don't like to talk about it lol because if a son of the Botkins left, things must wrong in that place. So people just ignore it. I heard that he does not work at T-Rex Arms anymore, and maybe they were looking to move out of the valley. Here's a handy map for people that do not know what the "valley" is. It's basically a compound of Botkins. Lucas lives off site somewhere, I'm not sure where though. 

 

Wait, so David Noor literally lives down the road from the Botkins?  Who lives there with him? Does his mom live with him? Nawelle (Or has she married)?

I'm not surprised by the departure of Audri - and by extension, Ben.  She was always a peculiar outlier in the Botkins... educated, talented in her own right, and from a family of successful and educated people.  They're probably much more satisfied with life. 

[ConfessionsOfABotkinite]

2 minutes ago, acheronbeach said:

Wait, so David Noor literally lives down the road from the Botkins?  Who lives there with him? Does his mom live with him? Nawelle (Or has she married)?

I'm not surprised by the departure of Audri - and by extension, Ben.  She was always a peculiar outlier in the Botkins... educated, talented in her own right, and from a family of successful and educated people.  They're probably much more satisfied with life. 

David, Daniel and their mom. I've heard that Nawelle works at the Capitol, so she lives in Nashville weekdays and weekends she lives at home? That was ether right before or after we left I think. Nawelle was always great, I don't think she buys the Botkins teachings as much as her family and she's always seemed independent. Daniel was a intern for Kevin Swanson for a while, so he came back with the anti-gay preaching that Kevin is famous for. 

[acheronbeach]

SO many more questions... Why are the Noors basically living on the Botkin compound? How did they end up moving there? Was there ever any talk about their creeper doctor dad?

Was there any substance to those rumors a few years ago that Geoff was sick?