Botkin Alert. They are back on the conference circuit!

[SrMaryEloquentia 464]

Speaking of Ken Ham, did you or someone in your circle actually visit the Ark Encounter? Is this something that would have appealed to you?

In a way I‘m impressed by Ham‘s vision and drive to put up something like that in the middle of rural Kentucky — there must be an audience for this (and not just  evolutionists like me, who would go there for snark and dioramas of dinosaurs fighting in an arena):

Edited July 31, 2019 by SrMaryEloquentia
Clarification: I haven‘t been to the Ark Encounter yet, but it’s on my list 😇

[Tangy Bee 2,813]

And just what do they have left to talk about?? Almost all the young fundie girls that followed them are married with children. Well I imagine they probably get out more than the Maxwell ladies.

[Marian the Librarian 7,001]

Lucas is complaining in his IG story feed that someone is masquerading as him on Facebook, and he is not amused (is it bad to admit that I am??):

https://www.facebook.com/lucas.botkin.5/timeline?lst=1485232865%3A100039162064878%3A1564609087

[Petronella 15,859]

2 hours ago, SrMaryEloquentia said:

Speaking of Ken Ham, did you or someone in your circle actually visit the Ark Encounter? Is this something that would have appealed to you?

In a way I‘m impressed by Ham‘s vision and drive to put up something like that in the middle of rural Kentucky — there must be an audience for this (and not just  evolutionists like me, who would go there for snark and dioramas of dinosaurs fighting in an arena):

Wait, for real? Dinosaur arena fighting at the Creation Museum?????????

[Marmion 2,229]

On 7/30/2019 at 6:05 PM, Palimpsest said:

 

Yes.  I have always wondered how deep Kinism is within theonomic/reconstructionist and VF circles.  It seemed a big thing in the inner circles.  

Oh , it is pretty widespread among Christian Reconstructionists .  Not universally so , to be fair , like my cousin at the blogs https://otrmin.wordpress.com  ,  and https://puritancalvinist.blogspot.com isn't . However , as I mentioned before , my parents , without knowing what exactly they teach , had enrolled my sister , and I in the Christian Liberty Academy Satellite School  homeschooling program , and their was assigned reading material which was heavily pro-Confederate , such as for example this book . Iron Scouts of the Confederacy  .  The only Union military leader they portrayed in any favorable light was George McClellan  , whom ran against Abraham Lincoln , in the midst of the Civil War . Otherwise , such Confederate generals as Robert E. Lee  , among others , were presented as being these Christian holy warriors .  So yes , the Lost Cause  is alive and well among sizable segments of the Christian right .  Lastly , I will add that some Christian schools were originally founded as segregation academies https://www.thedailybeast.com/segregation-is-still-alive-at-these-christian-schools  .  So all of this taken together can explain how nostalgia for the Antebellum South has come to permeate certain segments of Christian fundamentalism , especially stemming from a number of white evangelicals from southern states . 

[MamaJunebug 18,540]

4 hours ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Lucas is complaining in his IG story feed that someone is masquerading as him on Facebook, and he is not amused (is it bad to admit that I am??):

https://www.facebook.com/lucas.botkin.5/timeline?lst=1485232865%3A100039162064878%3A1564609087

It gone, bye-bye! - but no, you’re fully ok in your amusement. 

[thoughtful 57,572]

On 7/30/2019 at 12:20 PM, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

For instance, VF (and material they encouraged and distributed) claimed that slavery was a good thing,

A possible candidate for most sickening picture from the history of VF (and, let's face it, that's a tough competition) is this one, from the 2013 "historical" conference. I couldn't find the original anywhere, but here it is with the caption I put on it at the time. That's Doug Phillips (the tool), saluting solemnly next to a child dressed to persuade us that slaves happily fought for the Confederacy.

 

 

[Monstrous Black Sheep 547]

On 7/31/2019 at 4:21 PM, SrMaryEloquentia said:

Speaking of Ken Ham, did you or someone in your circle actually visit the Ark Encounter? Is this something that would have appealed to you?

 

Yeah, several people I knew went to the Ark Encounter. It was a super expensive family vacation, but it was popular. Ken Ham/AIG's materials were widely promoted in VF circles.

[Marmion 2,229]

1 hour ago, thoughtful said:

A possible candidate for most sickening picture from the history of VF (and, let's face it, that's a tough competition) is this one, from the 2013 "historical" conference. I couldn't find the original anywhere, but here it is with the caption I put on it at the time. That's Doug Phillips (the tool), saluting solemnly next to a child dressed to persuade us that slaves happily fought for the Confederacy.

 

 

This article I think puts their view of the Civil War , and the C.S.A. in perspective.  https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/11/12/gods-plantation-vision-forum-and-the-old-south/ But to be fair , I remember our family receiving the Vision Forum catalogue , unsolicited , probably because we were homeschooled , and for boys,  in addition to Confederate themed stuff , there was also Union .  So at the very least , if and when the boys were to play soldier , it need not have been one sided . 

[thoughtful 57,572]

37 minutes ago, Marmion said:

for boys,  in addition to Confederate themed stuff , there was also Union .  So at the very least , if and when the boys were to play soldier , it need not have been one sided . 

You're right -- the swords and kepis are on pg. 102:

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/18440292/downloadable-catalog-vision-forum

Of course, when a kid plays war and doesn't want to fight an imaginary enemy, somebody has to play that part. And, in VF-world, it was all about the costumes and props, and Doug making a buck, so the parents need to shill out for both Confederate and Union stuff.

I imagine that who were the good guys and who were the bad guys varied by family. I think of the hard-core VFers as also being Confederate apologists, but there must have been non-racist people in VF, not to mention families like yours who were non-VF but on their mailing list.

Lots to look at in the rest of the catalogue, for anyone who wants to alternately gag and laugh, and see familiar faces and names.

Here's an eye-roll-inducing comparison; on pg. 99, a boy grins at his brightly-colored SuperMag building pieces, and holds up something he's made with them. On pg. 79, a girl stares dreamily at her GeoMag Pastelles (yes, that's the spelling) gazebo, which is clearly built from pale versions of the same toy, without touching it.

Sorry to derail in the direction of VF, rather than Botkins. But I don't think I'd ever really looked through a VF catalog before, although I'd seen some individual pictures. It's . . .  something else.

[AliceInFundyland 27,051]

Not quite

Edited August 2, 2019 by AliceInFundyland

[hoipolloi 19,852]

8 hours ago, thoughtful said:

Sorry to derail in the direction of VF, rather than Botkins.

Not really a derailment. Geoff shows up in a number of the advertisements, especially for CDs or DVDs of "conference" proceedings.

It goes to show that Geoff Botkin, like his erstwhile buddy Doug Phillips, is a scammer.

Can't believe that people really bought that shite -- especially the books & various media -- at those incredibly inflated prices. 

 

[MamaJunebug 18,540]

36 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Can't believe that people really bought that shite -- especially the books & various media -- at those incredibly inflated prices. 

People with problems they couldn’t solve by themselves often look for A Solution. And if their desperation is deep enough, they’ll see the high prices of A Solution as being worth while. Especially when said Solution is well-packaged. Doug is a louse of the lowest order, but he knows how to sell. 

[Palimpsest 78,381]

As we are going down memory road and for some light relief:  Botkin and AS and E were featured in some LOLDougs.  I particularly like @watchdog's animated AS and E.

 

[SrMaryEloquentia 464]

@thoughtful, thanks for the link to the 2007 VF katalogue - plenty of Botkin titles, too...

I‘ve only made it to page 14 without cracking up about „Manly men write manly letters“. By Doug Philipps, no less!

[thoughtful 57,572]

28 minutes ago, SrMaryEloquentia said:

"Manly men write manly letters“.

Isn't that a classic? That whole page is a riot, with the word manly all over the place.

A picture of the back of the Manliness CD inspired me, way back when:

Spoiler

The VF macho stuff always reminded me of this:

Spoiler

 

 

[kpmom 10,966]

Manly men write manly letters?

Here's the first couple of sentences from one my very favorite of his manly letters:

"With thanksgiving to God for His mercy and love, I have stepped down from the office of president at Vision Forum Ministries and have discontinued my speaking responsibilities. 

There has been serious sin in my life..."

[Marmion 2,229]

On 8/1/2019 at 6:01 PM, thoughtful said:

You're right -- the swords and kepis are on pg. 102:

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/18440292/downloadable-catalog-vision-forum

 

I imagine that who were the good guys and who were the bad guys varied by family. I think of the hard-core VFers as also being Confederate apologists, but there must have been non-racist people in VF, not to mention families like yours who were non-VF but on their mailing list.

 

First off , thank you for posting a link to this . I had wanted to illustrate my point , but had not succeeded in finding a copy of a catalogue online .  Also , another factor is that their intended customer base included those from the North , as well .  So it's likely that a number of people they were trying to sell to would have had Union Civil War veterans , whom the sons might want to pay homage to . Like , I later researched my family history , and found out that I am related , and descended from Second Lieutenant Stephen Duncan Burns  , of the 103 Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry  . So , knowing this , if I were to have had a kepi cap from their catalogue , which I didn't , as my family never ended up buying from them , I would have preferred to have played the role of my ancestor , rather than one of the soldiers whom had attempted to kill him . As if the Conferates had been successful , I would never have been born , and we wouldn't have gotten to have this conversation .  So yeah , for me the subject of the Civil War is sort of something of personal importance .  But , as much as I have come to disagree with the cause of southern secession , I bear no hard feelings towards the families of Confederate veterans , if their be any here on FreeJinger . Their soldiers might have likely just felt that ,  whatever else the war might be about , for them they were just serving and defending their respective states .  Just as my ancestor had set out to fulfill what he had deemed to be his civic duty to both Pennsylvania , and possibly also the United States ,  they might have felt likewise towards the Southern Confederacy , or they might have even been conscripted .  But that is just my take on the matter , and I am glad that America is now united , and free , no thanks to the likes of the Botkins , and Vision Forum . 

[starfish 467]

On 7/25/2019 at 11:05 PM, MamaJunebug said:

But—but— I wanna add

FUNDIE CONFERENCE CRASHER

to my resume!!!!!!!!

Oh, you've got to go, MJB!!!!!! Crash it baby! And report back! 

[danvillebelle 8,727]

On 8/1/2019 at 5:01 PM, thoughtful said:

But I don't think I'd ever really looked through a VF catalog before, although I'd seen some individual pictures. It's . . .  something else.

Wow.  Major flashbacks.  I was still drinking the christian homeschooling kool-aid back then and I had that catalog.  There are a lot of things in there that we used to own.  The sole survivor is my big Noah Webster's dictionary, though to be fair I did not buy it from VF directly, I found it cheaper elsewhere.  I'm a word geek and I do still use it fairly often to look things up or skim for fun.

But the rest of it...all gone.  I wish I had all that money back.  When i think that I was buying stuff from them and looking at those pictures of Lourdes in the catalog... now, knowing what she was going through...it makes me want to hurl.  🤢

[Howl 52,503]

22 hours ago, thoughtful said:

A picture of the back of the Manliness CD inspired me, way back when:

  Hide contents

 

There exist instructions on the interwebs on how to gird up loins like a man.  Check it out here on the Art of Manliness website: How to Gird Up Your Loins: An Illustrated Guide

I'm surprised that VF manly men don't seem to have made a film on how to do this.  Maybe because it refers to men wearing "tunics", alternately known as muumus or, you know, dresses.

[Marian the Librarian 7,001]

Thanks for the catalog link, @thoughtful. My trip down the VF rabbit hole began around 2007, so I'm pretty sure this is the first catalog I ever perused.  🎵 "Mem'ries...light the corners of my mind..." 🎶

Merch from the Botkinettes: "How to be your father's ambassador and princess." Gah.

[Sobeknofret 1,991]

5 hours ago, danvillebelle said:

Wow.  Major flashbacks.  I was still drinking the christian homeschooling kool-aid back then and I had that catalog.  There are a lot of things in there that we used to own.  The sole survivor is my big Noah Webster's dictionary, though to be fair I did not buy it from VF directly, I found it cheaper elsewhere.  I'm a word geek and I do still use it fairly often to look things up or skim for fun.

I bought a Websters Blue Back Speller from Amazon years ago. Imagine my face when I opened it to find a forward and introduction by Doug Phillips, and published by Vision Forum. I can't quite make myself get rid of it, because, words, but I also can't quite bring myself to peruse it much either.

If the Botkins go back on the circuit and come anywhere close to me, I'm sure as hell going! The Botkins are kind of my "pet" trainwreck fundies.

[MamaJunebug 18,540]

32 minutes ago, Sobeknofret said:

the Botkins go back on the circuit and come anywhere close to me, I'm sure as hell going! The Botkins are kind of my "pet" trainwreck fundies.

Yer killin’ me, Smalls.  I want to buzz them in Nashville but by now they’re looking for a solo old woman who doesn’t fit the mold.  I mean, they can’t help but read here, right?  

[Palimpsest 78,381]

5 hours ago, Sobeknofret said:

If the Botkins go back on the circuit and come anywhere close to me, I'm sure as hell going! The Botkins are kind of my "pet" trainwreck fundies.

Yeah, if they go on the public circuit.  But have caution.  And any lurkers who may be tempted to crash this one, please don't do it!

I hope we have moles who will eventually report back but this is not one for members or lurkers to mess with.

5 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

 I want to buzz them in Nashville but by now they’re looking for a solo old woman who doesn’t fit the mold.  I mean, they can’t help but read here, right?  

Not only that.  This particular conference seems to be very well guarded and is not advertised as public.  Any member of the general public is probably excluded by the approval process for registration.  They hope they will get 180 True Believers.  I hope they get well under 50.

No snark here.

A long time ago @MamaJunebug crashed respectfully sat in the back of a (public) Fundie wedding.  Completely non disruptively.  And I freely admit I went to a Maxwell public conference a few years ago with my husband.  We also behaved ourselves respectfully (as in shut our mouths) and stayed undercover, but reported back. 

That is allowed by our rules.  To attend public events for research purposes but any disruption is at your own risk.  Use common sense!

Mr. P and I left the Maxwell conference after an hour because it was pretty traumatic listening to the crap IRL.  Way not fun.  Never again.  I'm now an advocate of please don't touch the poop.  For your own sakes.

And I will just mention that the Botkins are big on guns ...