How Do Women Get Sucked Into A.T.I.?

[GenerationCedarchip]

I saw it all the time at my church growing up. While there are pockets of fundieland that are very cult-like, there are also plenty of families who are just very conservative without the weird cultish aspect to it. These aren't the ones who run things like VF or ATI, but they are the families who tend to draw in their friends and neighbors. In calvinista circles, academic achievement is prized (unless you're trying to go into evolutionary biology) so I can see the allure of the happy, close-knit families with the kids who do well in school or who are winning spelling bees and writing competitions in homeschool. Also, for the moms, there is a lot of support. A lot of the new church families had wives who stayed home with small kids and felt isolated. With women's Bible studies, play groups and things like that, they suddenly had a social outlet. It wasn't until the kids got a little older that the conservative rules started kicking in and even then, they tended to gradually increase in strictness with a child's age so it wasn't until your kids had been in the church several years that you might notice your life is WAY out of step with mainsteam society.

[fundies_like_zombies]

Is there any way of tipping those bloggers who are near the edge back towards normal stuff and away from the kinda submissive / homemaking / sahd thing?

there are a few that kinda seem to be into that stuff but not deeply yet if you know what I mean.

[emmiedahl]

I think there are a variety of reasons, but what would draw me in (if I were so inclined) would be the formulaic nature of it. If you do XYZ in the right order, then A happens. I would love to feel that I could make a few simple decisions and my children would grow up well, my husband would adore me, my life would be full of happiness, etc. We work so hard with no assurances like that in the modern world. It is easy to see how someone would go for a 'sure thing'. It also explains how some families get so extreme. I think Teri's depression has been a major part of the Maxwells' descent into fundamentalism. If she is still depressed, then they aren't doing it well enough and need to give up more, work harder.

Some of the women also are probably lured in by the sense of superiority. Zsuzsu, for instance, is completely convinced that she is better than other people. I am sure that makes her feel nice, especially if she were a poor student or not very popular in her home culture (which I suspect was the case).

[Austin]

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that society in general doesn't really look to kindly on stay at home moms anymore. People look at me like I've grown another head when I say that I stay at home and am not doing anything with my poli-sci degree. For our family it just made sense. I plan to go to law school when the kids are all in school, but it's not like the world is dying for another lawyer right now. I decided to have my kids in my 20s and stay home to raise them. Some people (like my mom, for example) find that notion to be absurd.

So if a woman chooses that path, she looks for other likeminded women. While there are a lot of stay at home moms who aren't fundies, I would guess that most of the big SAHM bloggers are. If you're also a pro-life Christain...watch out.

I wouldn't describe our family as fundie at all. We don't even go to church. However, I definitely found myself pulled toward that lifestyle in the early years of my marriage just because it did seem rather idealic. Of course, my husband thought it was all ridiculous and wanted no part of it. Like I said in another post, he likes the way I look in jeans.

Everyone has different experiences, but based upon my own as a college-degreed mother who stayed home for a decade with her children that this was not my experience. I read these accounts of society looking down on SAHM, and it's not that I disbelieve them, but it does give me pause.

Sometimes I think SAHMs (not you necessarily) can be a little oversensitive. If someone a SAHM doesn't know asks her at a party, "what do you do?", it's a red alarm problem for a lot of them and they loudly proclaim an innocent question as proof-positive that society is against SAHMs - eleventy!!!111!!. They'll blog on those terrible four words for weeks. How insulting!

No, it's just a stranger trying to make conversation. Everybody "does" something. When I was a SAHM, that's what I said I did. It's not a slam, it's just a question.

And in the whole scheme of things, if the criticism of SAHMs is really going on to the extent that some claim it is, then it must be acknowledged that working moms are equally criticized. In the beginning of my SAHM decade, I tried to join groups of other SAH moms, but it was never a good fit for me. A small part of that was that I was uncomfortable with the nasty criticism of their neighbors or SILs who were working moms and their patting of themselves on their backs. (Other problems include that I hate crafts and scrapbooking, and mostly, that I'm just not much of a joiner.)

Having stayed home for 10 years and been back in the workforce for 11 years, I feel like I've gotten a taste of both sides, and the experience is really about even. Face it, as moms, we can't win. :D

[emmiedahl]

Face it, as moms, we can't win. :D

This ^1000.

When I was a working mom, I neglected my children and put them in "day orphanages". When I stayed at home, I "didn't do anything with my life". When I went back to school, I was "making the children suffer while selfishly pursuing my own dreams". Now that I work and go to school from home, "there is no way of doing it all, something must be suffering and it is usually the children".

The expectations for women are sky high and damn near impossible to fulfill. Maybe fundies embrace their lifestyle because there is a chance of actually getting some approval.

[freehannie]

See, I think it's the crazy expectations for women that drive some of these women into ATI. Also, they probably have already internalized some shame and fear from their childhoods which also feeds into it. Most of us recognize that these expectations are unrealistic and don't hold ourselves to them. For the ATI followers, they instead feel tremendous guilt if they fail to live up to them. Because they live in a world of black and white, of good and bad people, to acknowledge that they sometimes feel less than loving towards their husbands or children would be to admit to being bad. So those unacceptable feelings must be coming from the outside, either the devil, feminists, or atheists are causing it. They don't need to re-examine their priorities and set reasonable expectations like most of us would. They need to isolate themselves from those who are causing the bad feelings and ideas, pray harder, and it will all go away. They are told this by people like the Duggars and the Maxwells all the time. No one wants to see his/herself as a bad person and without the ability to separate bad feelings or actions from being wholly bad, they lack the ability to fully integrate their personalities. They also lack the ability to question the very ideals that they have been following because that is heavily discouraged in ATI and other fundamentalist groups.

In short, I think they are in a lot of psychic pain, but how they have chosen to deal with it only provides temporary relief. I read a book a couple of months ago where the author points out that people usually have 3 ways of dealing with suffering: politics, psychology, or religion. Those who lack resources typically only have religion as a method of dealing with suffering. To my mind, these women would be better served by a more mainline religion, some psychological services, and some political action as well.

[Austin]

See, I think it's the crazy expectations for women that drive some of these women into ATI. Also, they probably have already internalized some shame and fear from their childhoods which also feeds into it. Most of us recognize that these expectations are unrealistic and don't hold ourselves to them. For the ATI followers, they instead feel tremendous guilt if they fail to live up to them. Because they live in a world of black and white, of good and bad people, to acknowledge that they sometimes feel less than loving towards their husbands or children would be to admit to being bad. So those unacceptable feelings must be coming from the outside, either the devil, feminists, or atheists are causing it. They don't need to re-examine their priorities and set reasonable expectations like most of us would. They need to isolate themselves from those who are causing the bad feelings and ideas, pray harder, and it will all go away. They are told this by people like the Duggars and the Maxwells all the time. No one wants to see his/herself as a bad person and without the ability to separate bad feelings or actions from being wholly bad, they lack the ability to fully integrate their personalities. They also lack the ability to question the very ideals that they have been following because that is heavily discouraged in ATI and other fundamentalist groups.

In short, I think they are in a lot of psychic pain, but how they have chosen to deal with it only provides temporary relief. I read a book a couple of months ago where the author points out that people usually have 3 ways of dealing with suffering: politics, psychology, or religion. Those who lack resources typically only have religion as a method of dealing with suffering. To my mind, these women would be better served by a more mainline religion, some psychological services, and some political action as well.

Very insightful. And so true about the binary worldview thing.

[emmiedahl]

I wish we as a society could acknowledge that are many ways to be a woman and that all of them are good. Children of stay at home mothers get so much individual attention and 24/7 love, that's a great thing. I had a working mother and learned to be independent and self-sufficient, plus I was well-socialized to group situations. Some women choose not to have children and thus can make huge contributions to society that are frankly not within the reach of a woman who dedicates years to childbearing and raising. Those are all great ways of being a woman. They all have a place.

[VeraAnne]

I read these accounts of society looking down on SAHM, and it's not that I disbelieve them, but it does give me pause.

Clearly you have not met my mother! When I told her that I wasn't going to law school after graduation, she literally had a fit and told me that I was throwing my life away. :roll:

Now, she really is a radical feminist. We're talking "I'm voting for any woman for president because any woman would be better than a man...let me go march in the Slut Walk at 60, and oh did I mention that I know Gloria Steinem?" type feminst. I doubt that most people face the same level of opposition to their lifestyle as I did with my mom, but in my case it was very real.

I agree that there is a level of damned if you do, damned if you don't no matter what a woman chooses, but my point was just that when you face a lot of push back for your decisions in life, it is comforting to see other women who are basically giving a big middle finger to that sort of thinking, even if it is extreme in the other direction.

[Mompom]

I wish we as a society could acknowledge that are many ways to be a woman and that all of them are good. Children of stay at home mothers get so much individual attention and 24/7 love, that's a great thing. I had a working mother and learned to be independent and self-sufficient, plus I was well-socialized to group situations. Some women choose not to have children and thus can make huge contributions to society that are frankly not within the reach of a woman who dedicates years to childbearing and raising. Those are all great ways of being a woman. They all have a place.

:clap:

Completely agree. I'm not sure why we have to have mommy wars at all.

[Austin]

Clearly you have not met my mother! When I told her that I wasn't going to law school after graduation, she literally had a fit and told me that I was throwing my life away. :roll:

Now, she really is a radical feminist. We're talking "I'm voting for any woman for president because any woman would be better than a man...let me go march in the Slut Walk at 60, and oh did I mention that I know Gloria Steinem?" type feminst. I doubt that most people face the same level of opposition to their lifestyle as I did with my mom, but in my case it was very real.

I agree that there is a level of damned if you do, damned if you don't no matter what a woman chooses, but my point was just that when you face a lot of push back for your decisions in life, it is comforting to see other women who are basically giving a big middle finger to that sort of thinking, even if it is extreme in the other direction.

Okay, but you made it sound like society was giving you a hard time. Your mother is not "society". She's your mother and she clearly had a dream for you that wasn't quite your dream, or at least in the order that she had thought it would be, and you two butted heads over it. That doesn't mean that all of society looks with disdain at SAHMs.

[formergothardite]

My MIL has given me some crap for being a SAHM, but all in all I haven't had anyone else act like it was a big deal. Sure plenty of people ask me what I do and if I plan to go back to work full-time at some point, but I don't view that as insulting, just making conversation.

[VeraAnne]

Okay, but you made it sound like society was giving you a hard time

Oh I've definitely gotten comments aside from her.

"Wow, I really hope that is your last child" (Lady at the grocery store. 3 kids sitting in the cart being quiet and well behaved)

"So wait, you never did anything with your degree? I find that hard to believe. You're really JUST a mom?! Good luck getting back into the job market (snidely)" (mother at t-ball)

"Back in my day, women couldn't work and had to have a bunch of kids. I dont understand why you would do that willingly. Women shouldn't have any more than 2 kids these days" (Another (older) lady at the grocery store. She said this while I was shopping with all 3 of my kids. Uh should I just go off the baby? )

"I think most stay at home moms are just lazy" (friend from highschool)

[Austin]

There are all sorts of rude people in the world. Do you not think that working moms get rude comments? Rudeness on the part of a few =/= society in general.

[emmiedahl]

No matter what your choice is, you will get plenty of rude comments. That is a fact. It does mean that society is against SAHMs or working moms or childless women. It means that society is against women. Because none of us can meet the cultural ideal.

[EmmieJ]

Basically, the women abdicate all decision-making responsibility and if bad things happen, it's not because of anything they did or omitted, it's "god's will."

I know this particular thread is about why some women embrace A.T.I./extreme fundie beliefs, but I think this statement could explain why some men get sucked into this lifestyle as well. Yes, they are considered the heads of the home and expected to make all the decisions, but basically they are abdicating their decision-making to Gothard or whomever they consider the head of their particular church. It's an abdication of responsibility, because that responsibility is so hard and scary at times. And as said, if something goes wrong, it must be "God's will" and therefore not because you make the wrong choice/decision.

[Austin]

No matter what your choice is, you will get plenty of rude comments. That is a fact. It does mean that society is against SAHMs or working moms or childless women. It means that society is against women. Because none of us can meet the cultural ideal.

Trufax.

[VeraAnne]

I never said that working women don't face judgement. I'm just saying that if a educated, middle class woman chooses to stay home, there is some cultural push back. Here's an article that articulates exactly what I'm talking about. It was from a 60 minutes bit about SAHMs.

"The women that I have interviewed are completely dependent upon the goodwill of their wealthy income-producing husbands," says Hirshman. "They chose dependence."

But isn't it their right to choose? "It's different to talk about their right than what's the right decision," says Hirshman. "As Mark Twain said, 'A man who chooses not to read is just as ignorant as a man who cannot read.'"

"These women are choosing lives in which they do not use their capacity for very complicated work," adds Hirshman. "They are choosing lives in which they do not use their capacity to deal with very powerful other adults in the world, which takes a lot of skill. I think there are better lives and worse lives."

Now granted, she was just one voice in the article, and there were several who were far more supportive, but you can't deny that this sort of attitude is out there. Reading that, my thought is honestly "fuck you, Ms. Hirshman." Her attitude is exactly the type of thinking that makes fundies write blog post after blog post about the evils of feminism.

You ask what drives people to start wearing a long skirt and baking cookies, well a lot of it is push back from this sort of thinking. It's the same reason women raised in super conservative homes run out and become feminist activists.

If women were more supportive of the actions of other women, there wouldn't be the need for these factions.

[margiebargie]

If women were more supportive of the actions of other women, there wouldn't be the need for these factions.

I suppose. But what other commenters said about "damned if you do, damned if you don't" is so true. You are going to face criticism no matter what. It doesn't matter what some bee-yotch on t.v. says. People talk crap about working moms constantly. Heck, they talk crap about women constantly. It's just a fact of life, unfortunately.

Look at our "perfect" SAHM fundie blogger friends, they're always chiding each other about something. It's nuts.

It is too bad that your mom doesn't support you though. I'm sorry to hear that.

[kayray]

I suppose. But what other commenters said about "damned if you do, damned if you don't" is so true. You are going to face criticism no matter what. It doesn't matter what some bee-yotch on t.v. says. People talk crap about working moms constantly. Heck, they talk crap about women constantly. It's just a fact of life, unfortunately.

Look at our "perfect" SAHM fundie blogger friends, they're always chiding each other about something. It's nuts.

It is too bad that your mom doesn't support you though. I'm sorry to hear that.

Yup. It is tough to learn to let others be responsible for their own judgments (even our own mothers!), but, eventually you need to do it for your own sanity.

No matter what you do, there will always be someone out there who thinks you are doing it wrong even if it is incredibly mundane (and/or will try and one up you...."well, I only feed my child organic carrots watered with unicorn tears!"). I just look at people who set standards for everyone else and think "how exhausting to worry so much about what others are doing!" and keep on going with what works for me. It does no good to stress about them - issues & decisions are never as black and white as they try and make them out to be, nor should they be.

[Angri-la]

There are all sorts of rude people in the world. Do you not think that working moms get rude comments? Rudeness on the part of a few =/= society in general.

I surely do! And you want rude comments? Mention that your husband is a SAHD (not a Botkin, a Daddy), because I would go insane staying at home all day, and he has a job where he can be home all day. Or adopt a child who is of another ethnicity, and wait for the fun and exciting rude comments.

No matter what life choices women make, there is always someone there to put you down for them. But, by the same token, there are plenty who will applaud what you've done with your life; you're the one who has to live it!

[bananacat]

I also think that SAHMs are sometimes oversensitive. I have never heard anyone criticize a woman just for being a SAHM. In the rare cases that it happens, it's because she can't actually afford that luxury and her kids are suffering for it, or her husband has to work 2 jobs to make up for it so the kids end up missing out on one parents completely as a result, or they were being holier-than-thou about it and looking down their noses at working moms.

To me, some SAHMs get defensive in the same way that some meat-eaters get really defensive around vegetarians who never even try to "convert" them. You're maintaining the status quo and assuming that everyone is judging you, but most of them aren't. Most vegetarians don't want to guilt meat-eaters or rip the burger out of their hands, and most feminists don't want to force women into the workplace anymore than they want to force women into the kitchen. I'm not a meat-eater but I used to date a guy who was vegan, and he never tried change me. Yes, of course there are a few pushy, judgmental people out there, but they're not the majority.

[Vex]

I am one of those sort-of lazy, low energy people. However:

To me, the idea of having to keep a home perfectly clean and being responsible for 5+ children is far more terrifying than slaving away at a job ever could be. I can't even keep my home clean and tidy now, and I have no children. How can these women, who work literally 24/7 at their jobs as homemakers, possibly be scared off by working a 40 hour week at a job? It blows my mind.

[Austin]

To me, the idea of having to keep a home perfectly clean and being responsible for 5+ children is far more terrifying than slaving away at a job ever could be. I can't even keep my home clean and tidy now, and I have no children. How can these women, who work literally 24/7 at their jobs as homemakers, possibly be scared off by working a 40 hour week at a job? It blows my mind.

Being a SAHM was the hardest job I've ever had. In part, that was because I was not cut out for it very well. I am one of those people who requires a lot of mental stimulation and a lot of alone time. Neither are inherent in being a SAHM - just the opposite.

Having said that, I stayed home because I chose to do so, believing that for our family, it was the best thing. My husband had greater earning power then, so it made sense for me to stay home as opposed to him. And I considered it a privilege as I know that many women would like to stay home but can't for a variety of reasons, most having to do with money and health insurance.

But my job now is positively cushy to those early years with my children, no doubt about it.

[skankbiscuit]

It's very appealing to some women to never have to grow up (think baby voice) or think for themselves.