Tudors: Your Favourite and Why

[acheronbeach]

In the explain your username thread, @viii mentioned her live of Tudor history and I proposed a thread for QFO Royalty.

Here goes - my favourite Tudor figure is Eustace Chapuys, the Spanish ambassador.  Lauren Mackay wrote the first in-depth biography of him a couple of years ago, and he's far more pragmatic than usually portrayed.  His relationship with Princess Mary was fascinatingly protective as well.

[viii]

Chapuys was a father figure that was often denied to Mary, I think. 

My favourite Tudor figure... I can’t pick. I love so many of them for different reasons. I know a lot of people believe that the Tudor era is overdone, but it’s been my passion since I was 9. 

If I HAD to pick, I’d pick Elizabeth I. Such an icon. 

[tabitha2]

Margaret Beaufort-does she count as a Tudor?  Anyway I really like her.

[RosyDaisy]

Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry VII. She was a mama bear who never waivered in her belief that her son would be king and did everything in her power to put him on the throne.

Margaret Beaufort-does she count as a Tudor?  Anyway I really like her.

As the mother of a Tudor king, I think she does.

[Loveday]

2 hours ago, acheronbeach said:

In the explain your username thread, @viii mentioned her live of Tudor history and I proposed a thread for QFO Royalty.

Here goes - my favourite Tudor figure is Eustace Chapuys, the Spanish ambassador.  Lauren Mackay wrote the first in-depth biography of him a couple of years ago, and he's far more pragmatic than usually portrayed.  His relationship with Princess Mary was fascinatingly protective as well.

I've always had a soft spot for Chapuys. I need to find Mackay's book now, thanks for mentioning it!

Not sure who my favourite Tudor would be. Maybe Lady Jane Grey? Her story has always both fascinated and saddened me. I do seem drawn to some of the more 'minor' players in the 120-year drama. Thomas Wyatt ('noli me tangere, for Caesar's I am...'), Hans Holbein, Bessie Blount, Kat Ashley--people sort of on the fringes but who still made their mark in history. Bess of Hardwick, who spent quite a few years tending to her husband's infamous prisoner Mary Queen of Scots. Thomas Tallis for his music. And Lady Jane Grey's sisters, Katherine and Mary. I think all of these people are every  bit as interesting as some of the more major players.

[FloraKitty35]

Anne of Cleves is my favorite Tudor woman.  She made the best of a lousy situation and was a survivor.  

[acheronbeach]

@Loveday I have the most fascinating biography of Bess of Hardwick by Mary Lovell. Advantageous marriage - she's the pinnacle (x4!)

@FloraKitty35 I agree.  The "king's sister" got Anne Boleyn's old castle, a shit ton of $$$, and spent the rest of her days gambling and having fun at court. 

[Loveday]

35 minutes ago, acheronbeach said:

@Loveday I have the most fascinating biography of Bess of Hardwick by Mary Lovell. Advantageous marriage - she's the pinnacle (x4!)

@FloraKitty35 I agree.  The "king's sister" got Anne Boleyn's old castle, a shit ton of $$$, and spent the rest of her days gambling and having fun at court. 

Yes! I have that book, it's excellent! 

Anne of Cleves is my favourite of Henry's wives. She really played her cards well!

[Cora Persephona]

I have been fascinated by Henry VIII's wives since middle school when I read a short text about them in my English textbook. Afterwards I just had to know more, so I've read a lot of books on the subject and have lots of opinions.

Katherine of Aragon: I admire her and think she was a very strong woman. She was clearly very intelligent and well educated, she would have probably been a good ruler by herself. She clearly loved her daughter dearly, and I sometimes wonder how both their lives would have turned out if she had just agreed to the annulment. I know why she didn't, but this would be an alternate historical novel that I'd read in a heartbeat.

Anne Bolyen: she's probably my favourite just for her sheer audacity. She wanted a better life for herself, probably never dreamed  of being queen, but when she caught Henry's attention she just went with it. I don't think she expected his infatuation to last when she first said no to him, but it did and she made the best out of it. 

Jane Seymour: knew what she was doing. I don't think she was the quiet mouse that history wants us to believe she was, she either realized that she needed to be the opposite of Anne, or someone told her. She would have probably had an uneventful life with Henry had she survived the birth of Edward.

Anne of Cleves: her motto should have been "the most lucky". She is really the winner here, out of all of them. 

Katherine Howard: poor thing, she really was failed by all the people that should have protected her. She deserved better.

Katherine Parr: probably a good woman, intelligent, good judge of character with Henry, she knew what to expect from him and how to play her part, bad judge of character with Thomas Seymour. She finally married for love, and it killed her basically.

All in all, I am not sure that Henry ever loved any of his wives, he was too much in love with himself. If I had to choose one it would probably be Katherine of Aragon, but with reservations. I think they had a few good years in the beginning. Anne was a game to be won, Jane was just "not Anne" and the advantage of having a son and dying early. As for the other 3 wives, I think love never played a part.

I do have a soft spot for Mary I, she really had a very sad life, and great admiration for Elizabeth I, her mother would have been extremely proud of her, I think.

Sorry for the wall of text, I have lots of opinions on the subject.? I could go on, and on, this barely scratches the surface.

[JordynDarby5]

This is a hard one because I really like so many of the Tudor women. I really like each of the six wives, and both of his daughters. Katherine was just so intelligent and would have made a great Queen in her own right, Anne's bold move to try and hold out to be Queen, Jane who I agree wasn't the innocent woman most people seem to think she was she knew what she was doing and played her part so well, Anne of Cleves who managed to get out of her marriage with her head, money and still part of the court, poor Katherine Howard everyone let her down, and Katherine Parr who had been really smart and great too until her marriage to Thomas. None of the six really deserved their fates. Same with Mary I. She got screwed over so badly by her father, ripped from her mother and tried so hard to turn things back the way they had been and tried for heirs for none of it to work out in the end.

But if I have to pick it would be Elizabeth I. She really had to over come so much and she did. Just growing up knowing your father had your mother beheaded is enough to mess anyone up but it really didn't.  Being sent to the Tower by her sister Mary who she had once been close too and she really did think she was going to die. She was really smart, her tutors did an excellent job on her education. She really seemed to learn from all of the mistakes before her and was an excellent politician. 

[acheronbeach]

Another favourite - Margaret Roper, daughter of Sir Thomas More.

Supposedly the most educated woman in England at the time, multilingual, a writer, and the only one in her family brave enough to keep visiting her father in the tower, giving him hope and smuggling items back and forth. 

And, after he was killed, she put herself at risk by paying a bribe to get her father's head. 

It's a tragedy that none of her writing has survived.  If any of you are interested in her, I'd 100% recommend the book A Daughter's Love by John Guy.

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

16 hours ago, FloraKitty35 said:

Anne of Cleves is my favorite Tudor woman.  She made the best of a lousy situation and was a survivor.  

Another vote for Anne here.  So much more to her than most realise.

My son did the Tudors in history this term.  I quite enjoyed helping him revise for the end of term exams!

 

 

[Tikobaby]

Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I are my favorites. 

[Once_Upon_A_Fundie]

I've always been a huge Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I fan. Such strong, boundary-breaking women. But my favourite person to read about is Lettice Knollys (also known as Devereux). Her marriage to Robert Dudley was such a slap in the face to Elizabeth, and her daughter, Penelope, was a straight up rebel. 

[viii]

I love reading people’s different takes on the wives. I’m currently writing a novel about Jane Seymour, and it’s been fun to delve inside of her head and bring her to life. 

[nokidsmom]

On 7/14/2019 at 12:46 PM, JordynDarby5 said:

This is a hard one because I really like so many of the Tudor women. I really like each of the six wives, and both of his daughters.

Same here. I got interested in that history when I was 6th-7th grade.   It's a tough choice but I have to put in a vote for Anne of Cleves.   She was put in a bad situation where she was married to someone who had divorced and beheaded a previous wife, who decided he did not like her, putting her in jeopardy.  No doubt she had to worry whether or not she was going to make it out alive.  She took the pragmatic approach, complied with the King's wishes for the annulment, aiming to part on good terms and it paid off.   In a way, she was the most successful wife.  She got out alive, received honors and riches commensurate to that of a queen for the duration of Henry's life, without the trials and risks of being married to him.   She remained on good terms with her former husband as well as her two stepdaughters.  And she outlived all of the other wives.  

[ADoyle90815]

Anne of Cleves is also my favorite of the six wives as she played her cards right and made the best of a bad situation. One thing about this section is that I'm now getting a list of books I want to read, such as that one about Chapuys as he's probably my favorite among the men of that period.

[VelociRapture]

I’m not really sure. I think so many of these people are interesting simply because of how complex they were - none of them were really one-dimensional in anyway, you know? They all had passions, motives, ambitions, flaws, etc. 

I think Princess Mary, Henry’s sister, was pretty ballsy. I love the spunk and feistiness she showed when she made Henry promise she could pick her second husband prior to marrying the King of France and how she then convinced Charles Brandon to elope with her after her first husband died. I honestly don’t think anyone else could have gotten away with pulling that on Henry without suffering much more severe consequences than they ultimately faced. I kind of love her for taking her shot without hesitation and absolutely nailing it. 

I admire Mary Boleyn for similar reasons. She was used as a pawn by her family to gain favor with Henry, did her duty by then marrying the guy they chose for her, and then basically told them all to go fuck themselves by marrying William Stafford after she was widowed. Maybe she was actually happy with her life at court and being the king’s mistress. We don’t really know a lot about her unfortunately. I do really like that she seems to have been unapologetic about marrying someone she loved regardless of his social standing though. 

I think Henry VII lived a really interesting life as well. It’s absolutely insane that he went from being the ultimate underdog to King of England the way he did. His marriage to Elizabeth of York was made as a political alliance, but it also seemed to have developed into a genuinely loving relationship over time. And I think he showed he could be an incredibly shrewd politician at times, despite the fact that he didn’t grow up at court. He strikes me as one of the most interesting Tudor monarchs just because of everything he went through to win, hold, and successfully pass his throne on to his sole surviving son. 

I have always had soft spots for both Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn, as well as their daughters, as well. Each were accomplished and fascinating women in their own rights and it bugs me that most of them are mainly remembered for how they were treated by Henry and the other men in their lives. 

[Four is Enough]

I don't remember where I saaw this, but a television show I was once recently watching actually posited that Elizabethe I died as a child and a young boy was taken to imitate her, and that's why she never married, wore such heavy makeup, etc. Never have I ever heard anything similar at all!

[tabitha2]

I remember the same program. I thought it was Interesting But overblown and very much fantasy.

 

https://www.historicmysteries.com/queen-elizabeth-man/

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I blame all of you for my being currently lost in the Tudor rabbit hole.  I've always loved the Tudor period (Ruth Goodman is my hero) but never had much interest in the Tudors themselves until now.

There is a great rebuttal on YouTube of the Elizabeth was a boy rumor and the expert said the same as I was thinking....they had no privacy back then so it's impossible no one would have known.   The same person did a great piece on Anne of Cleves which hooked me....talk about marital strategy.  

Anyway - as much as I am opposed to the monarchy and all on principal I'm a sucker for real historical drama and this is scratching an itch.  I'm grateful to the Harry and Meghan thread for getting me googling.

Also, non-Tudor but I may have a bit of a post-humous crush on King Charles II.  

[anjulibai]

What an odd rumor, Elizabeth was male. Yeah, there wouldn't have been any way to hide that, for oh so many reasons. 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

On 7/19/2019 at 9:57 PM, VelociRapture said:

 

I admire Mary Boleyn for similar reasons. She was used as a pawn by her family to gain favor with Henry, did her duty by then marrying the guy they chose for her, and then basically told them all to go fuck themselves by marrying William Stafford after she was widowed. Maybe she was actually happy with her life at court and being the king’s mistress. We don’t really know a lot about her unfortunately. I do really like that she seems to have been unapologetic about marrying someone she loved regardless of his social standing though. 

 

I hate this narrative. Sure, it works in fiction giving both Mary and Anne a way out of making their own decisions. They were forced by the ambitious men around them.

 

In reality, Thomas Boleyn was already an important man in his own right from the early 1500s. He was a member of the escort taking Margaret Tudor to her wedding in Scotland. He was created a knight of the garter for Henry and Katherine's coronation in 1509. He was an ambassador to Margaret of  Austria, Francois I and Charles V. He managed to get both of his daughters much sought after positions as maids of honour to Mary Tudor at the French court. This was following negotiating an earlier position for Anne in Margaret of Austria's court, which was a much more valuable experience for the young Anne. He was instrumental in the creation of the Field of Cloth of Gold.  All of this before Mary caught Henry's eye.

 

Would Thomas have been created Earl of Wiltshire if not for Anne? Probably not since the Tudors didn't hand out titles readily. Earl of Ormonde? Also doubtful since a match between Anne and James Butler was being pushed as far back as 1522.

 

To dismiss him simply as a grasping pimp does him a huge disfavour.

[Anna Bolinas]

8 hours ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

Earl of Ormonde? Also doubtful since a match between Anne and James Butler was being pushed as far back as 1522.

True, though he did have a claim to the Ormonde inheritance. His mother, Margaret Butler, was co-heiress with her sister of her father, Thomas Butler, 7th Earl of Ormonde. And that's why the marriage between Anne and James Butler was mooted, to merge the two claims. But yeah, Thomas Boleyn was doing fine on his own due to his own abilities and his own advantageous marriage to Elizabeth Howard, daughter of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk.

One thing about portrayals of Mary and Anne that really annoys me is when they get depicted as enemies or rivals. Usually the stereotype is to make Anne and George the best of friends, while Anne and Mary hate each other because Anne is a bitch or Mary is an airhead or whatever. But while Anne and George may have been closer, we don't proof of Anne and Mary being bitter rivals. We don't know what they thought about both having had a relationship with Henry VIII. And while Anne was upset with Mary for marrying William Stafford, iirc, Eric Ives says in his bio of Anne that Anne did send some financial help to Mary and continued to support Mary's two children from her first marriage. The Boleyns in general just get a horrible rap.

[Seahorse Wrangler]

On 3/18/2021 at 11:16 PM, Anna Bolinas said:

 The Boleyns in general just get a horrible rap.

Personally, I think the one who has the worst posthumous reputation is Jane Boleyn. Especially in fiction. There seems to be a  constant narrative that she is the out-cast, betrayer of two queens, the snitch who sold out her husband, the sex-crazed harpy. "Karma got her back in 1542".