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Joy & Austin 28: loss and mourning


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8 hours ago, sableduck said:

I don’t think Lauren meant any harm. I am not going to tell a woman how she should or shouldn’t grieve a miscarriage, or how long they should feel sad, or that they shouldn’t feel as bad because it was only six weeks.  I do think there is a fundamental difference between a six week miscarriage and a 20 week fetus that you can see and hold and bury; but I am not going to tell Lauren her grief is less than.

I think it is bringing Lauren a small measure of comfort to believe that her Asa has a cousin in Heaven, and she thought the idea would bring Joy some comfort too, the idea that Annabell is happily playing with her cousin.  And maybe it would; I also believe in an afterlife, and when I thought I was going to lose my unborn child, I did have a small measure of comfort that I believe my brother would be there to welcome my baby.  We don’t know if it brought Joy comfort or made it worse, but I think Lauren was trying to be kind.

I think so, too.  

I've miscarried very early, earlier than Lauren, and I don't know if there is anything I can say that's worth saying.  I think things akin to what Lauren wrote when loved ones experience tragedy.  I don't know if I should say them because not knowing you were at the beginning of a pregnancy isn't comparable to months of loving a baby.  

I am very sorry for Joy and Austin's loss.

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What Pickles has done crosses a serious line. HIPAA is in place for a reason. A person’s medical information is to be kept private unless they choose to share.

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1 hour ago, jillsdopplerofdoom said:

I know that in the cult Joy will not be getting all the support she could if she wasn't in it but at least people aren't just expecting her to get on with it alone. 

This is actually one aspect where being in such an insular group can help. There’s no shortage of people who feel compelled to step in. I think FJ (in general) has an almost cartoonish view of the Duggars and some of the other families. People can have really awful beliefs/abusive relationships but still have genuine connections and love. I don’t think that Michelle or Kelly Bates hate their children, and I don’t think the children hate or totally resent their parents. Joy & Austin will likely be surrounded by love in at least the short term. 

Also I think Joy and Carlin may have bonded over a shared faith crisis. They both struggled in their teen years, and having someone who really understands what you’re living through is invaluable. 

Edited by purple_summer
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2 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I find it odd that the family is a big 4th of July celebration while Joy is in the hospital. 

I could see the Duggars not wanting to cancel the party; OR they considered not going and justifying "but Joy would WANT us to go!"

Also, Joy and Austin look understandably devastated and I can only hope they are getting the help and care they all need. Good to see Carlin was there being a friend. Can't same for the same for the family "being there" but maybe they were?

I'm hoping TLC don't put the miscarriage on TV and flaunt it. It's a very personal thing.  

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12 hours ago, meee said:

I've never experienced a miscarriage. I hope this question isn't inappropriate and that I'm not triggering anyone by asking it:

Given her past history, is there a chance Joy would have needed a second C-section with Annabel, or is a 20 week fetus small enough that she can deliver it naturally?

I can only tell you what happens in the UK.??‍♀️ Also, I only know as much as anyone else about the Duggar family, which is basically through social media.

An suspected intrauterine death would need to be confirmed by two separate clinicians (usually two doctors) who would do their independent ultrasound scans. Joy’s case would be called a ‘missed mid-term miscarriage’. It’s called ‘missed’ because her body didn’t start the labour process naturally after her baby died. Mid-term because she’s 20 weeks.

The mother would be given options for delivery.

1) Wait for spontaneous labour. 

2) Induce labour, usually a drug regimen of Mifipristone & Misoprostil.  Joy would be at slight increased risk of uterine rupture because she’s had a caesarean section, so she would be monitored very closely.

When a woman’s baby dies inside her, this can affect her blood-clotting, so very rarely would a caesarean section be offered. Also, the lower-uterine segment doesn’t form until 28 wks, so a caesarean section at 20 weeks would be a classical (vertical) incision on the womb, which is generally very undesirable.

A dilatation and curretage would NEVER be offered at 20 weeks.

Joy’s medical notes would record an IUD (intrauterine death), not an ‘abortion’. Also, her case would NOT  be considered a ‘stillbirth’ - this is reserved for babies who are born from 24 weeks showing no signs of life. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, meee said:

I've never experienced a miscarriage. I hope this question isn't inappropriate and that I'm not triggering anyone by asking it:

Given her past history, is there a chance Joy would have needed a second C-section with Annabel, or is a 20 week fetus small enough that she can deliver it naturally?

I have only had miscarriages before 12 weeks so I can’t speak from personal experience.

However, one of my close friends lost her daughter at 21 weeks - she speaks of her openly and would be fine with me sharing. She delivered her first baby via c-section.

They induced the labour and monitored her very carefully the whole time. At first when the baby died my friend asked to have a GA and c-section but the Dr advised against it, not only because the combination of grief and recovery would have been more difficult, but also so that the chance of c-section for future possible babies wasn’t increased. The Dr also explained that going through labour and birth was a helpful part of the grieving process and that women who did deliver a loss via c-section had higher rates of depression after the birth. I wasn’t present for those conversations but my friend spoke about it in detail.

My friend legally had a stillbirth, though I realise the terminology is different in different places. In Australia, stillbirth is defined as “the birth of a baby without signs of life after 20 weeks’ gestation”.

Any birth after 20 weeks requires a birth certificate (and if the baby dies - also a death certificate) in Australia, plus a legal funeral. Losses before the 20 week mark are welcome to have a funeral but it is not a legal requirement.

https://www.sands.org.au/miscarriage

http://www.bearsofhope.org.au/a/24.html

If Joy speaks about her loss in the future and uses the term miscarriage or stillbirth I think it is respectful to use the same language as her.

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2 hours ago, surgicalmusicalchairs said:

Joy’s medical notes would record an IUD (intrauterine death), not an ‘abortion’. Also, her case would NOT  be considered a ‘stillbirth’ - this is reserved for babies who are born from 24 weeks showing no signs of life. 

Wouldn't a loss that wasn't considered a stillbirth* still count as an abortion for the woman's GPA (gravida/parus/abortus)? Or do you just record that differently in the UK?

*I realize there is some ambiguity here about the cutoff for a stillbirth. I'm just asking in general, not about this specific situation.

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8 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I find it odd that the family is a big 4th of July celebration while Joy is in the hospital. I'm assuming she delivered Annabell yesterday or today if Carlin just posted those photos. It seems strange to see them all standing around playing games while their sister is enduring the biggest pain and suffering a in her life.  But the Duggar's are a strange lot that is for sure.   

I found the photos weird of Joy all done up weird and the selfie with Carlin even weirder, but seeing Joy post how grateful she was for Carlin doing her hair and make up and being there for them while she had her angel baby it seems sweet and I guess it will be comforting to them later after the whirlwind of the last week and the coming one as they start to move on with out their daughter. 

As for fucking pickles, UGH unless Joy & Austin tell us what happened we have no business knowing what happened, it is their business and theirs alone.  Their child died that is all we need to know. 

What can the rest of the family do though? There really is nothing they can do or say to make this easier or better for them. Choosing to have the party may very well have been a choice Joy and Austin wanted them to make. It’d provide the rest of the family with a much needed distraction during what has been a pretty terrible month in all of their lives and allow Joy and Austin to have some time alone together as they grieve.

As for Joy being made-up, I don’t see what’s weird about wearing makeup in that situation. Photos will be pretty much all they have to remember Annabell by. I usually don’t wear makeup or do my hair nice, but if I had time to plan then I’d honestly want to look nice for photos like that too. I do think the selfie was an odd choice to post, but if Carlin cleared it with Joy and Austin first then I think it’s ok. The main thing I hope is that the people closest to them are being respectful of Joy and Austin’s feelings and opinions in a tragic situation.  

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18 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Wouldn't a loss that wasn't considered a stillbirth* still count as an abortion for the woman's GPA (gravida/parus/abortus)? Or do you just record that differently in the UK?

*I realize there is some ambiguity here about the cutoff for a stillbirth. I'm just asking in general, not about this specific situation.

In Australia we record GPMT (Gravida/Parity/Miscarriage/Termination).

While I learnt that a spontaneous abortion was a miscarriage in medical school and I'd expect another doctor to understand the term, I have never heard a doctor refer to a miscarriage that way in over a decade of working with many years in obstetrics and gynae. It's not something we say to patients and as a professional term it's very much going the way of the dodo here.

Terrible situation for Joy and Austin.

Edited by jozina
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9 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

What Pickles has done crosses a serious line. HIPAA is in place for a reason. A person’s medical information is to be kept private unless they choose to share.

Pickles lost the plot sometime ago but I think that multiple other people did initially comment on the ultrasound video that Joy posted and implored her to get further scans as they thought various things looked off. So while Pickles is a terrible person, she wasn’t the one who went off the rails on this, but she’s now trying to get scoop in a most offensive way.

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Pickles on this occasion has outdone herself. Vile sensationalism in extremely poor taste. It is a matter of the most private nature. It’s like posting someone’s confidential medical notes on social media. She would probably do that too, given half a chance 

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Pickles has been - and I know a lot of people hate this word but I think it applies well - a cunt for a very long time and asking randos on the internet to diagnose an ultrasound in hopes that a magazine picks it up (because you know that's what it is about) is another level of gross. 

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4 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Wouldn't a loss that wasn't considered a stillbirth* still count as an abortion for the woman's GPA (gravida/parus/abortus)? Or do you just record that differently in the UK?

*I realize there is some ambiguity here about the cutoff for a stillbirth. I'm just asking in general, not about this specific situation.

Yes, it would be counted as one of her pregnancies, but not considered an abortion. Assuming Joy has only ever had two pregnancies, her status would’ve been recorded as thus:

Pregnant with Gideon: G1, P0.

After Gideon’s birth : G1, P1.

Pregnant with Annabell: G2, P1.

After Annabell’s birth: Para G2, P1 + 1.

And so on. Sometimes the type of loss is recorded as SB (Stillbirth) or NND (neonatal death). So G2, P1 + 1[SB]  IF the woman has a stillbirth, or TOP, if she has had a termination of pregnancy. Joy’s would not be considered a TOP, because her baby had already died.

This type of language is not very helpful for the poor grieving families - it’s just for Healthcare professionals to keep track of things. Even though babies are not recorded as Stillborn the UK until 24/40, evidence suggests that parents consider theimselves to have had a Stillbirth from around 19/ 20 weeks, and I think it’s very important to be sensitive to that fact. 

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2 hours ago, AtlanticTug said:

Pickles lost the plot sometime ago but I think that multiple other people did initially comment on the ultrasound video that Joy posted and implored her to get further scans as they thought various things looked off. So while Pickles is a terrible person, she wasn’t the one who went off the rails on this, but she’s now trying to get scoop in a most offensive way.

Could you please source this assertion that multiple other people commented on a video scan that Joy posted? What scan and how long ago was it posted? Just my opinion here, but it seems that Joy’s baby was still growing , not to say that the baby was ultimately viable, but  fetuses that die in utero do not continue to grow, so if there actually was a video posted, it must have been fairly recent. Thanks-

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1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Pickles has been - and I know a lot of people hate this word but I think it applies well - a cunt for a very long time and asking randos on the internet to diagnose an ultrasound in hopes that a magazine picks it up (because you know that's what it is about) is another level of gross. 

And another level of gross is (I just saw on Tumblr) that she is asking if Ivy is gaining appropriate amounts of weight.  Really fat shaming a baby? Ffs.

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Does anyone follow Jamie Ottis on Insta?  She and her husband Doug met and were married on Married at First Sight.  I watched that train wreck of a show it's 1st season, and I remember thinking what an arrogant twat Jamie was. She was so mean to and about Doug, she was all happy and fine about being on TV and doing the show then she saw Doug and flipped out because "he was ugly" He wasn't that bad looking IMO but he was the sweetest guy, and he took Jamie's whiny self centered abuse and basically killed her with kindness.  Even after the 6 or 8 weeks when they get to choose about staying married or divorcing, she begrudgingly stayed married, I think mostly because Doug had money and she didn't, but the longer they were together she finally seemed to get over herself, and realized what a good guy Doug really was. The more I saw her on line the more I realized she wasn't so much self centered as she was just scared, she'd had a fucked up life, her dad wasn't in the picture and her mom was/is a drunk and wasn't a very stable influence.  

ANYWAY, Jamie got pregnant about a year and a half into the marriage, but lost the little boy at about 19 weeks, she and Doug shared picks of Johnathan, sort of, he was wrapped in a blanket and you really couldn't see him, and told their story to People magazine. She was very open about her sadness and her journey of loss and how her and Doug were there for each other, and how they manged to get through it and learned to live with out their son.  They eventually had a baby girl a little over a year ago, who is ADORABLE, She's is the prettiest little girl I've seen in a long time.  She commented on joy's post about understanding exactly what she was going through, as she'd had the same loss, and seemed to let her know Joy could reach out to her to talk if she wanted to, as she also knows what this is like to deal with when the public knows what is going on and the attention you have on you when strangers know your grief.  She seemed very thoughtful and kind and and I did think it was sweet that she offered her a shoulder to lean on in a more private setting, and that is something that I think Joy and anyone would need in this situation, other women who've lost a child in a similar situation, because only those women can truly understand that level of sadness. 

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31 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Could you please source this assertion that multiple other people commented on a video scan that Joy posted? What scan and how long ago was it posted? Just my opinion here, but it seems that Joy’s baby was still growing , not to say that the baby was ultimately viable, but  fetuses that die in utero do not continue to grow, so if there actually was a video posted, it must have been fairly recent. Thanks-

I don’t think anybody was suggesting that the baby had already died or stopped developing at the time they posted the video. The video was from April 10th but was posted on May 7th and described as her 10-week ultrasound. I read through all the comments and could only find one person who suggested something might be wrong. Behind the cut:

Spoiler

DC426234-2F91-44E1-8BFB-D70B74CB5F71.thumb.jpeg.01683df11ace04d2df5e225905d92a03.jpeg

D0E53100-D72A-437D-A465-28CA2CDA87AC.thumb.jpeg.62d3e2d30838fd26fd8f94901087e1b5.jpeg

 

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8 minutes ago, WiseGirl said:

And another level of gross is (I just saw on Tumblr) that she is asking if Ivy is gaining appropriate amounts of weight.  Really fat shaming a baby? Ffs.

I saw someone commenting to see if gaining a pound a week was "appropriate for a newborn" I didn't see that it was pickles but it doesn't surprise me that it was, I'm kind of glad it was her means that one less disgusting c&nt online, if it's all contained to one scummy woman.  I wanted to comment that Ivy is fine and to STFU, but I can't comment on Pickles page, because the greeneyed twatller blocked me from doing so.  

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13 minutes ago, WiseGirl said:

And another level of gross is (I just saw on Tumblr) that she is asking if Ivy is gaining appropriate amounts of weight.  Really fat shaming a baby? Ffs.

Ivy is fine and she looks a great weight. Jessa is doing a great job.

It could be worse. A Youtuber I watch has a three month old son who looks thin, no chubby rolls or anything. She seems obsessed with having small babies and keeping them at a low weight and has admitted to only breastfeeding her baby at night for five minutes and only to get him to sleep. She continuously ignored advice from the midwife too. 

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22 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I don’t think anybody was suggesting that the baby had already died or stopped developing at the time they posted the video. The video was from April 10th but was posted on May 7th and described as her 10-week ultrasound. I read through all the comments and could only find one person who suggested something might be wrong. Behind the cut:

  Hide contents

DC426234-2F91-44E1-8BFB-D70B74CB5F71.thumb.jpeg.01683df11ace04d2df5e225905d92a03.jpeg

D0E53100-D72A-437D-A465-28CA2CDA87AC.thumb.jpeg.62d3e2d30838fd26fd8f94901087e1b5.jpeg

 

Thank you. I wonder if this scan was provided by a medical professional or one of those Boutique corner place$? I think another thing that needs to be considered here is that the incidence of miscarriage and IU death is higher in fetuses that have genetic and chromosomal anomalies; babies that ultimately may or may not be viable. I’m not speculating or diagnosing in terms of Annabelle, just mentioning that in terms of the general population. 

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On 7/4/2019 at 8:55 AM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

. . . . 

Also I saw another poster in the last thread mention "at the least they have Gideon" I wanted to say please don't EVER say something like that to a parent who has lost a child, I know the intentions are good, but the parents are generally very offended by this as it implys that children interchangeable, and that a new one or and old one will make up for the loss. 

A good rule of thumb is just to not start any attempt to comfort with "At least." I have been very guilty of being a person who started my attempt to comfort someone with "At least, " so I am not judging those who have because it is coming from a good place BUT this may not be the best route to go.

 

Edited by nolongerIFBx
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8 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Thank you. I wonder if this scan was provided by a medical professional or one of those Boutique corner place$? I think another thing that needs to be considered here is that the incidence of miscarriage and IU death is higher in fetuses that have genetic and chromosomal anomalies; babies that ultimately may or may not be viable. I’m not speculating or diagnosing in terms of Annabelle, just mentioning that in terms of the general population. 

It was done at a boutique place called Babyface & More.

Edited by singsingsing
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2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

It was done at a boutique place called Babyface & More.

Do those places have any professional doctors or counselors on staff? Or are they merely for pictures and videos? 

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18 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Thank you. I wonder if this scan was provided by a medical professional or one of those Boutique corner place$? I think another thing that needs to be considered here is that the incidence of miscarriage and IU death is higher in fetuses that have genetic and chromosomal anomalies; babies that ultimately may or may not be viable. I’m not speculating or diagnosing in terms of Annabelle, just mentioning that in terms of the general population. 

This is why it's important to do the full combined first trimester screen or NIPT. I am guessing they did neither since had they done the first tri screen, they would have had a later ultrasound (with photos, video, but none were posted) and NIPT would have told them the sex of the baby which we also know they didn't know until they went in for the scan which revealed a lack of heartbeat.

Now I understand that some fundies turn down the screening on the logic of "we will have the baby anyway" which is a really irresponsible thing to do since you may have to give birth in a place with a Level III NICU or require multiple paediatric specialists to attend at the birth or immediately after.

Edited by AtlanticTug
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14 minutes ago, nolongerIFBx said:

A good rule of thumb is just to not start any attempt to comfort with "At least." I have been very guilty of being a person who started my attempt to comfort someone with "At least, " so I am not judging those who have because it is coming from a good place BUT this may not be the best route to go.

 

My mom told me, “At least you know you can get pregnant and next time would be different,” while I was in the middle of miscarrying our first pregnancy. She honestly meant well and I love her dearly, but I wanted to slap her at that moment. I settled for glaring at her and saying something about how I didn’t want another baby, I wanted this one. She never said anything like that to me again about the subject. 

Making “at least” statements, no matter how well intentioned, minimizes the other person's feelings. It’s not helpful at all. If someone doesn’t know what to say then a simple, “I’m so sorry,” and offering to let them cry on your shoulder is a much better option. 

Likewise, telling someone with diagnosed anxiety to just “calm down” or “you need to relax” are equally unhelpful. My mom told me I just needed to relax when we were trying to conceive our second (Yes, because relaxing will fix my PCOS) and told me I need to calm down before a big ultrasound with this pregnancy (Despite knowing my medical history and the fact that I have every reason to be anxious this time around.) I let the first comment slide because I didn’t have the energy to argue it, but I flat out snapped at her over the second comment about how if it was that easy I wouldn’t have anxiety or be in therapy. 

So yeah. No “at least” comments when dealing with grief and no comments about calming down to people struggling with anxiety is a pretty solid rule to follow. 

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