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laPapessaGiovanna

Joy & Austin 28: loss and mourning

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meee

I've never experienced a miscarriage. I hope this question isn't inappropriate and that I'm not triggering anyone by asking it:

Given her past history, is there a chance Joy would have needed a second C-section with Annabel, or is a 20 week fetus small enough that she can deliver it naturally?

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luv2laugh
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, meee said:

I've never experienced a miscarriage. I hope this question isn't inappropriate and that I'm not triggering anyone by asking it:

Given her past history, is there a chance Joy would have needed a second C-section with Annabel, or is a 20 week fetus small enough that she can deliver it naturally?

They won’t do a C-section. She would be given the option of a D&E or to wait for labor to naturally occur.

Like Michelle, I believe she would choose to labor as a D&E is also performed as a method of abortion.

They will probably have a funeral like they did for Jubilee.

Edited by luv2laugh
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meee
2 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

They won’t do a C-section. She would be given the option of a D&E or to wait for labor to naturally occur.

Like Michelle, I believe she would choose to labor as a D&E is technically performed as an abortion.

Even though the baby is already dead? I don't understand why that would be an abortion.

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sableduck
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, meee said:

Even though the baby is already dead? I don't understand why that would be an abortion.

With a D & E there is no body to hold. I almost lost a baby and we discussed the pros and cons of each with my OB. I wound up keeping the pregnancy, but being able to see and hold the baby was important to me.

Edited by sableduck

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SweetLaurel
2 minutes ago, meee said:

Even though the baby is already dead? I don't understand why that would be an abortion.

I lost a baby at 16 weeks and the dr wanted to do a D&C after a week of baby passing,  basically because I was losing my mind waiting to lose her naturally.    My husband was very worried the insurance company would label it an abortion because they don't cover that.  The doctor kept saying 'there is no baby.  the baby is gone.  there is no abortion.  this is a medical procedure.'    People think weird things.   Fundies in particular.   

 

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luv2laugh
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, meee said:

Even though the baby is already dead? I don't understand why that would be an abortion.

The fetus/baby has passed but D&C is an abortion method. Medically, it would be listed as an abortion in her medical records. 

Mayo Clinic describes the multiple reasons for a D&C, mainly, to treat a miscarriage or perform an abortion.

For many women, waiting for labor to occur and birthing a lifeless, fully formed fetus/baby is too emotionally painful and there’s an increased risk of infection than with a D&C... 

Edited by luv2laugh

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nvmbr02
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, meee said:

Even though the baby is already dead? I don't understand why that would be an abortion.

It isn't abortion. But it is treated by some as the same thing. I can not speak for Joy or anyone else but I know that I was heavily criticized by many when I chose to have a D&E ( I generally refer to it as a D&C since more people know that term). I was told by many people I would regret not holding my baby, not having pictures, etc... These were mostly people that were involved with our church at the time. While I can't say Joy has been taught to believe that it wouldn't surprise me. I truly hope she feel she can make the best choices for herself without outside pressure. Only support. 

Edited by nvmbr02
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Jezzable
2 hours ago, viii said:

Jill needs to learn some goddamn tact. Using hashtags like rip and 20weeks is absolutely awful. 

I think it's tacky, too; however, I wonder if this is how this family is able to emotionally deal with things. Their beliefs require them to label this tragedy as part of God's plans, and they obviously can't get angry with God, so this may be their only way of connecting emotion with the death. It's not the way most people would handle it, but in a way, I think it's healthy for them, if that makes sense.  

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Waffle Time
Beermeet
8 minutes ago, nvmbr02 said:

It isn't abortion. But it is treated by some as the same thing. I can not speak for Joy or anyone else but I know that I was heavily criticized by many when I chose to have a D&E ( I generally refer to it as a D&C since more people know that term). I was told by many people I would regret not holding my baby, not having pictures, etc... These were mostly people that were involved with our church at the time. While I can't say Joy has been taught to believe that it wouldn't surprise me. I truly hope she feel she can make the best choices for herself without outside pressure. Only support. 

I am pro choice, big time.  However,  I couldn't shake the feeling I was aborting my baby. I went from being pregnant to bleeding to learning my baby died to D&C within 24 hrs.  I was confused and I didn't have time to wrap my head around the death yet.  I wish I was able to have advocated for myself to hold off at least a day. But, I couldn't think clearly at the time.  Maybe I would've gotten the D&C, ultimately.  So, I can understand the thought behind that.  It's definitely not an abortion as in choosing not to have a viable pregnancy but, my mind had trouble with that. Very unexpected reaction.  

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Tired
purple_summer

Just a note on “we don’t grieve as those with no hope” line- it’s very common, at least in Baptist (mainstream and IFB) circles. In my experience it’s always been used to acknowledge that grief is a real and necessary part of life, but if you believe in heaven and the resurrection you *know* you’ll see your loved one again. I think they’ll get some level of counseling/support even if it’s just pastoral care. 

 

I cant imagine what she’s going through. This is a nightmare. 

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Rachel333
5 minutes ago, purple_summer said:

In my experience it’s always been used to acknowledge that grief is a real and necessary part of life, but if you believe in heaven and the resurrection you *know* you’ll see your loved one again.

It's true that most people don't use it to mean you shouldn't grieve at all, but I know that line has led a lot of Christians to really struggle with feeling like the depth of their grief is inappropriate because they're not supposed to grieve like unbelievers.

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HarleyQuinn

I'm curious if they do a full on funeral like they had for Jubilee since Joy was further along and if so, do they televise it. 

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AtlanticTug
19 minutes ago, nvmbr02 said:

But my body refused to cooperate and I struggled even more at the hospital. So I elected the D&E so that it would all be over with. It was the best decision for ME but everyone has their own way of handling a loss like that.

Same exactly story here for my most advanced loss. I went with the D&E in the end and wished that I'd chosen it earlier. Honestly I just wanted it over with mentally and emotionally.

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VelociRapture
1 hour ago, BrandoBarks said:

This is so terrible and every pregnant woman’s worst nightmare I think. My heart goes out to them! Oh my, poor Joy and Austin. I was so terrified that that would happen to me (two medium risk pregnancies) and I checked with my fetal doppler every day for a heartbeat. I know that sometimes those things give false alarms or be confusing especially if used improperly but I was really really anxious. I had something like 5 ultrasounds in the first trimester plus 3 in 2nd and 3rd. Not planning to get pregnant a third time for that reason, to me pregnancy means anxiety...

Anxiety during pregnancy is a beast to deal with because it can vary so much from person to person. My first pregnancy ended in a very early miscarriage, which made me extremely anxious for most of my second pregnancy. My second pregnancy ended in the late premature birth of my daughter and I had such bad anxiety during her NICU stay that I had nightly panic attacks. This third pregnancy has been extremely difficult for me emotionally as a result of both those experiences. I’ll get through one milestone fine - like hearing the heartbeat the first time or having a great Nuchal Translucency scan -  and have a bit of relief, but then the anxiety comes back again as we approach the next milestone. That’s even considering I have had four ultrasounds the first trimester and I’ve been having twice weekly appointments starting at 16 weeks to monitor cervical length via ultrasound and get a progesterone injection* this pregnancy. Having a Doppler at home can be legitimately helpful for a lot of people, but it would have stressed me our horribly the first trimester - I would have been tempted to use it all the time and would have panicked if I hadn’t found a heartbeat at some point.

But yeah. I don’t plan on having more kids for a lot of reasons, but the anxiety is definitely one of the biggest ones. My heart goes out to anyone dealing with similar struggles.

*Bonus being able to see baby on the ultrasound and hear his heartbeat when they use the Doppler at the injection appointment.

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Spent
finnlassie

I'm literally crying over the news. It's getting too much. I need to mute all Duggars on Instagram for a while and avoid these threads. There's been just so much miscarriage around me. I feel so sad, I feel so and truly sad that Joy and Austin lost their beloved baby. I cannot imagine the grief they're going through. It's painful to watch from afar, and it must be heartwrecking for them.

And the knowledge... that it's likely there will be more miscarriage announcements in the future, if the Duggars keep on with this pace in the public. Pregnancies are such a huge part of their lives, which is terrifying. Miscarriages aren't as rare as people often think - it can happen to young and old women, it can happen at the start or at the very end.

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Depressed
melon
7 hours ago, meee said:

How old is she again - 20?

21

 

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NorthernGal

The term abortion is used in medical terminology very frequently.  

The term TA (Therapeutic abortion). refers to the termination of a pregnancy by medical intervention.

The term SA (Spontaneous abortion) refers to a non viable pregnancy that ended with no medical intervention.  

A D and C (Dilation and Cutterege) is performed sometimes as part of a TA or SA.  So for example a TA can be attained with a D and C.  A SA will quite often have a D and C follow it to "remove retained products of conception"  Meaning if the SA did not fully empty the uterus then they will perform a D and C.

I had 4 miscarriages and did not like the term SA on my file because I felt people would think I chose to terminate my babies that I wanted very much.  I have since (many years) learned it is just medical terms.  The emotions and how I grieve on anyone grieves cannot be labeled and we should not let what may or may not be on our medical chart define us.    The doctors need succint medial terms to chart our medical history.  That is their job.  So I understand that.  

I hope this helps a bit in the understanding.  

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jillsdopplerofdoom
Posted (edited)

I really hope TLC do not film the funeral or delivery of the baby etc (I wouldn't put it past them). It's such a sensitive time for poor Joy (and Austin) without it being splashed all over magazine covers and having tons of strangers watch. 

They probably will air it. This is going to be one sad series of Counting On. 

This is Joy's second pregnancy and we know Michelle also sadly lost her second baby (Caleb) so that must be on her mind. 

Edited by jillsdopplerofdoom
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singsingsing
1 minute ago, jillsdopplerofdoom said:

I really hope TLC do not film the funeral or delivery of the baby etc (I wouldn't put it past them). It's such a sensitive time for poor Joy (and Austin) without it being splashed all over magazine covers and having tons of strangers watch. 

I'm almost 100% sure that they will. I'm sure we'll be seeing Grandma Duggar's funeral as well.

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seraaa
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

In addition to the obvious devastating part of this story, we will almost certainly have Joy pregnant again by the end of the year regardless of whether she is ready for it mentally, physically or emotionally.

I blame JimBob and Michelle for the relentless impregnations and a race to get to 20 without regard for your existing children. And until Josie & Jubilee, Michelle had a remarkably easy time with her pregnancies. None were complicated medically, none had special interventions, or resulted in premature births or children with disabilities or serious genetic issues or medically frail children, etc. All those girls saw growing up was a baby factory. And it simply has not gone nearly as well for the second generation and I'm not entirely sure that they are able to detach from the situation to realize that Michelle was basically a medical phenomenon and not an example of what to do.



Obviously we don't know anything so personal about Joy and Austin's relationship, but the thought that she might feel that she can't hit pause even if she wanted to - or that she couldn't do so without feeling massive amounts of guilt - makes me shrivel up inside.

Even if they are anti-hormonal contraception there are non-hormonal options. If she wanted.

I really hope she gets the support she needs. Everyone on Instagram has been kind and we've seen how sensitive the family were towards Lauren, which is great.

Edited by seraaa

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laPapessaGiovanna
2 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

She makes everything about herself and discusses Asa through the lens of a pro-life political agenda rather than genuine grief. 

Of course she's pro-life, she's part of a pro-life cult, nothing new. But how can you say that her grief isn't genuine? Are you God, knowing what people feel in their heart? It's not like since she's pro-life then she can't feel grief.

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onekidanddone
3 hours ago, metheglyn said:

Agreed. Per their Instagram, they had an ultrasound at 10 weeks. They shared both a picture (as part of the announcement) and a video. Admittedly it was from a boutique ultrasound location not a doctor's office, but this wasn't the first time they'd had an ultrasound. 

Why would anyone have an ultrasound that wasn’t performed under a doctor’s care? Seems really foolish to me especially if there some concerns that wouldn’t be picked up an lead to serious complications down the road. 

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